How to sell high value firearm?

[lemonysword]

Hey guys, I am beginning to considering selling my semi M53 with tripod and all accessories. I'm estimating a price around $9000 for everything. While I have sold quite a few items on AKfiles, very few were worth $1000 or more. What is the safest way to accept payment for such a large amount? Id really prefer to avoid PayPal or Venmo, but many buyers also seem to have an aversion to zelle. What do you guys do for high value private transactions? 

[Buddy H]

what I have done in the past is this …… personal check or cashiers checks …. IF the buyer uses a major bank and the same bank is in your area …. You simply take the buyers check to that bank …. the bank will Verify his account and Funds … then they will Cash his check …. You walk out with Cash ….

[MontanaRenegade86]

Just a quick thought to add...

A cashier's check, even from a small local or regional bank, is the equivalent of cash. I recently purchased a car (remotely) with a cashier's check, it's the only way to do a high value transaction in my opinion. Funds are available upon presentation to your bank. If a bank teller or manager leads you to believe otherwise, they are not very good at their job. 

[Buddy H]

3 minutes ago, MontanaRenegade86 said:

Just a quick thought to add...

A cashier's check, even from a small local or regional bank, is the equivalent of cash. I recently purchased a car (remotely) with a cashier's check, it's the only way to do a high value transaction in my opinion. Funds are available upon presentation to your bank. If a bank teller or manager leads you to believe otherwise, they are not very good at their job. 

years ago a friend got burned with a Faked Cashiers Check …. Just throwing that info out there ……

[lemonysword]

Are there any electronic methods you would take? Zelle should be safe and is irreversible once funds are sent, but I've had buyers before who have had $500 a day restrictions on their account.

fake checks are a concern of course, part of why I posted this thread.

[flgunguy]

Certified check from a major bank. Or take a wire. 

[rhouston8]

personal check. wait for it to clear.

I wouldn't buy a gun from someone if I had to wait in line at a bank to get a bank check or wait in line at USPS during the workday to get a lousy USPS money order or whatever.

 

Check and let it clear.

Plus it's a good record of the purchase.

 

My 2 cents after buying a lot of guns over the yrs.. from $1 to $50k.

[taylorwso]

16 minutes ago, rhouston8 said:

personal check. wait for it to clear.

I wouldn't buy a gun from someone if I had to wait in line at a bank to get a bank check or wait in line at USPS during the workday to get a lousy USPS money order or whatever.

personal checks are too slow.

most banks you can have certified checks mailed to whomever you want, even then they take about 5 minutes if you have the info ready.

never use USPS MO's they are the worse since banks never have cash.

[lemonysword]

8 hours ago, flgunguy said:

Certified check from a major bank. Or take a wire. 

Do you know of any fraud risks from a wire? It would be nice to be able to take it directly into my account 

[johnsonlmg41]

edited for brevity

Edited February 2 by johnsonlmg41

[MontanaRenegade86]

At the end of the day, it all comes down to your personal risk tolerance. 

I've sold a fair amount of gun related stuff over the years - a couple of machine guns, collector grade books, hard to find parts, etc. I've given the purchasers great leeway in deciding how they want to pay. If they pay by personal check, I let them know it may take a while to clear. Nobody has ever had a problem with that. If they are established members who I trust, I've been known to send the merchandise while the check is clearing. I don't make allowances for everybody, but I generally have a pretty good feel for a person based on the quality of their posts, how helpful they are, how active they are, etc. Haven't been burned once as a seller and only once as a buyer. When I got burned as a buyer, I took immediate action and minimized my loss. In the end it was a couple of bucks I lost. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by MontanaRenegade86

[HHollow]

9 hours ago, taylorwso said:

personal checks are too slow.

most banks you can have certified checks mailed to whomever you want, even then they take about 5 minutes if you have the info ready.

never use USPS MO's they are the worse since banks never have cash.

I take the usps money order to my bank and they cash it.  I am sure it would blow back on me were it fake. But who is stupid enough to FAFO with a usps mo?

[riflejunky]

On 8/6/2023 at 8:02 PM, lemonysword said:

Are there any electronic methods you would take? Zelle should be safe and is irreversible once funds are sent, but I've had buyers before who have had $500 a day restrictions on their account.

fake checks are a concern of course, part of why I posted this thread.

Wait till the check clears. Seems simple enough.

[rhouston8]

yeah....if time isnt a major concern...just do the check man. keep the paper trail. you get the info. of course ALWAYS talk to buyer/seller ON the phone...not just email or text or some BS. TALK. You gain a ton of info some a simple conversation. Oh and this filters out about 90% of scammers right there - as they generally refuse to speak English on the phone to you and if they do they clearly don't know gun details, etc etc.

electronic stuff for speed only....but higher chance of fraud.

The heck if as a buyer I'm going to monkey around waiting in line at a bank for a bank check or to send a $35 wire or wait in line at USPS for a MO.

My 2 cents. 

[RCM Limited]

Thanks for the thread, I am getting ready to sell a transferable HK package (HK 51, HK 53, HKMP5SD, and an HKMP5K with a DLO trigger pack). All the guns are SBR's. I have done this in the past but never to this magnitude in $. Historically, I have always used cashiers checks from a major banks and allowing enough time for the checks to clear before parting the mg. As much as possible, I try to used this site as a platform for the sale. Getting references for the potential buyer is recommended. Surprisingly the NFA community in the USA is pretty small. It seems everyone knows someone you've dealt with over the years that knows or has heard of your potential purchaser. Keep in mind the purchaser will need to vet you as well so it is a two way street so it works both ways.  FWIW

[pinball-1]

For me its either; USPS Money Order, Zelle, or Bank Money Order.

USPS Money Orders are the safest and can be verified on USPS website before cashing. Downsides are $1,000 max per money order, and once you get past $3,000? you have to fill out some extra paperwork, due to money laundering concerns.

Zelle has an initial limit dependent on your bank (often $500 or $1,000, sometimes as much as $1,500), but second transaction to the same person is typically unlimited after the first 24 hours. Very rare a Zelle transaction can be reversed, but it is technically possible.

Bank Money Orders I hold for a week. There are lots of fake money orders out there. With so many different banks and styles of check, they are sometimes hard to identify. Your bank may still cash it, but then withdraw the money from your account a few days later.

I never under any circumstance accept PayPal, Venmo, CashApp, or Personal Checks. All can be canceled or scammed quite easily, especially as more and more people see the big dollar amounts in this hobby.

Edited August 11, 2023 by pinball-1

[Craigan]

I have done almost everything when I've bought.

I've paid with bank wire, personal checks, twenty-five separate USPS money orders in one envelope, had cards ran, and even PayPal on an FNC before.
I can understand the trepidation with Zelle as the buyer may think you're the one who might scam them. Once sent nothing can be done.

[lonewolftactical]

If you're paranoid then go with a cashiers check only. As others have stated it's as good as cash.

You're "obviously" going to cash it and get your money "before" you ship the firearm so I don't really see what the hesitation would be.

Like Ebenezer Scrooge said..."I don't ship...until I have the cash in hand!!!"

[trosupp]

I just feel more comfortable with money order and like stated above cashiers check a really good too.

[Don.]

I’ve bought three of my four transferable MGs right here ranging from $3.8K to $25.5K, all from private sellers.  I’ve paid using USPS MO’s and a personal check (for the $25K) with no problems.  I was a good customer and they were all good sellers.

You’re selling…so at one point in time, you will have physical custody of the gun and the cash.  Are you a bad seller?  If not, what’s the problem?

[woof]

I've wondered if any red flags would come up if I suddenly had $100k deposits into my account from selling off a collection. I know there are reporting requirements for withdraw but what about deposits? Is some bureaucrat going to demand to know where the funds came from? 

[pstidan]

2 hours ago, woof said:

I've wondered if any red flags would come up if I suddenly had $100k deposits into my account from selling off a collection. I know there are reporting requirements for withdraw but what about deposits? Is some bureaucrat going to demand to know where the funds came from? 

What would Joe Biden do?

[Thumpy]

11 minutes ago, pstidan said:

What would Joe Biden do?

Idk what joe would do but lol Hunter Biden would smoke crack and drive a Porsche 173 mph while videotaping him self.

[Chef]

On 9/17/2023 at 6:14 AM, woof said:

I've wondered if any red flags would come up if I suddenly had $100k deposits into my account from selling off a collection. I know there are reporting requirements for withdraw but what about deposits? Is some bureaucrat going to demand to know where the funds came from? 

You're going to have to report it on your taxes. Probably as a "luxury tax".  Uncle Sugar wants his taste.

[CB76]

Seems to me maybe a wire transfer bank to bank would be the safest.  You can’t even trust checks anymore.   Last year I bought a couple guns from someone (a legit dealer) and mailed him a couple personal checks totaling over 65k.  I wrote these checks out of a checking acct I rarely ever use.    In fact other than those gun checks, the only other check I wrote out of that acct the whole year was to my kids private school.  Since I don’t use that acct often I also don’t check it.   I happened to notice an email last October that came from Bank of America saying my wire transfer was complete.   When I logged in to that acct I noticed over the last 2-3 months over $40,000 had been stolen from the acct using ach check purchases, wire transfers, etc.  There were a few different people using the acct info to buy whatever they wanted including paying off credit cards(prob stolen cards to keep the card working) Home Depot purchases, one guy in Florida even paid his health insurance with it.   I did get the police involved and it took a few weeks and several hours on the phone with Bank of America but they did give the money back to me.   I can’t remember the exact time frame but it was either 60 or 90 days you had to report the fraud and it was one day beyond that when I noticed it.   Being a premium platinum account holder for many years they said they would make it right and give the money back.  They did.   Well somewhere someone got my checking routing and acct number and that’s all they needed.   Some micro deposits were made and verified for certain transactions which makes me believe it was an inside job with banking personnel.    I think the dealer I sent the checks to took the checks to the bank and there might have been a dirty teller seeing large checks from out of state and shared the info with people they knew who possibly worked in the banking industry maybe with the same bank.  Who knows I ca. only speculate.  Even personal checks aren’t safe anymore.    It boggles me that banks don’t use a proprietary encrypted barcode system on checks rather than printing actual acct info on the check.    Just my personal experience.  

[gun_nerd]

This is an interesting thread, and since I used to work at one of the big banks, here's my two cents on checks...

A cashier's check is just a check that's drawn against an account owned by the issuing bank instead of an individual person. Your own bank has no idea whether the check is legit unless it's one of theirs. There is a ton of cashiers check fraud, so as a seller I would treat a cashier's check the same as a personal check and give it at least a week to clear after being deposited. The exception to this would be if you actually go in person to a branch of the bank that issued the check, in which case they are usually able to verify its authenticity and/or cash it for you (even if you're not a customer).

In my opinion, accepting a personal check is not much more risky than a cashier's check as long as you give it AT LEAST 5 business days to clear. Most banks will make the funds available to you within 2-4 days for your convenience but this does NOT mean the check is good. Make sure you wait five or more business days. I would recommend waiting as long as two weeks if you're suspicious of the seller. After that period of time it's extremely unlikely the money would be reversed back out of your account. Check with your own banker for their advice if you're not sure.

I agree with CB76 that a wire transfer would be a pretty safe method. It's basically impossible to reverse a domestic wire transfer unless there's an actual bank error involved (like the bank entered the incorrect amount). There are usually fees involved for both the sender and the receiver - typically a flat fee of $20-40 (or something in that neighborhood) on each end. IMO the fees are not a big deal on a $10k+ transaction.

[Buddy H]

14 minutes ago, gun_nerd said:

This is an interesting thread, and since I used to work at one of the big banks, here's my two cents on checks...

A cashier's check is just a check that's drawn against an account owned by the issuing bank instead of an individual person. …… so as a seller I would treat a cashier's check the same as a personal check and give it at least a week to clear after being deposited. The exception to this would be if you actually go in person to a branch of the bank that issued the check, in which case they are usually able to verify its authenticity and/or cash it for you (even if you're not a customer).

What he said ^^^^^^
As I posted earlier ……. 
what I have done in the past is this …… personal check or cashiers checks …. IF the buyer uses a major bank and the same bank is in your area …. You simply take the buyers check to that bank …. the bank will Verify his account and Funds … then they will Cash his check …. You walk out with Cash ….

[Abbey]

Late to this conversation, but this is good information. I'm looking to make a large purchase (and after it clears, make a large sale) and personally feel it's either Cashier's check or Wire for extremely large purchases. My bank is nearby my house and usually isn't crowded and I don't even have checks on my checking account (it's online only with "free" cashier's checks if I need them - which is generally only 1-2x/year).

I've used USPS money order for small things in the past but the $1k limit is crazy if you're buying a $50k machine gun. Unless it's something I really really need, I'd likely pass on a deal if someone requires USPS MO.

[Ryo]

Many years ago I asked my bank about how safe cashier checks were and they warned that some credit union fakes may take more than a week to clear.. Major banks were cleared pretty quickly

[reichstall]

So, for me I write a personal check and tell them when it clears let me know, nobody has ever said I don't want to do that, I avoid all online transfer maybe I am old. 

[United Surplus Arms]

9 hours ago, reichstall said:

So, for me I write a personal check and tell them when it clears let me know, nobody has ever said I don't want to do that, I avoid all online transfer maybe I am old. 

I think that's a good strategy.  I sent a certified check overnight/signature required (USPS) and it got "lost".  Post office's response was a joke.  It took 90 days to get my money back in my account.  Every method has it's drawbacks, but a regular check can be cancelled right away.  A few extra days for it to clear is no big deal, in the big scheme of things.

[Robert C]

WOOF, any deposit of $10 K gets reported to the feds, not sure about withdrawals?

[Ryo]

On 2/2/2024 at 6:03 AM, reichstall said:

So, for me I write a personal check and tell them when it clears let me know, nobody has ever said I don't want to do that, I avoid all online transfer maybe I am old. 

There is one problem with that.. Thieves get your routing # and checking account # with personal checks. They can ACH stuff. Bank checks are are a bit safer.

As for reported to feds, I believe it is income only but expenses is not. 

Quote

Banks must report cash deposits totaling $10,000 or more
If you're headed to the bank to deposit $50, $800, or even $1,000 in cash, you can go about your affairs as usual. But the deposit will be reported if you're depositing a large chunk of cash totaling over $10,000.

When banks receive cash deposits of more than $10,000, they're required to report it by electronically filing a Currency Transaction Report (CTR). This federal requirement is outlined in the Bank Secrecy Act (BSA).

While most people making cash deposits likely have legitimate reasons for doing so, that isn't always the case. The government wants to keep a record of large cash deposits to make tracking and tracing illegal activity easier. Proper reporting helps them do their job.

What you need to know about this rule
Some people may wonder if they can get around this rule by depositing $9,500 and then making another $501 deposit a few days or weeks later. You can't get around this rule by making smaller deposits spread out over time.

This kind of activity is referred to as structuring and is illegal. According to the IRS, structuring is the practice of conducting financial transactions in a specific pattern calculated to avoid the creation of certain records and reports.

This federal reporting rule is something to keep in mind if you make cash deposits regularly. If you're making legitimate cash deposits into your bank account, there is nothing to worry about -- but it's good to be aware of this cash reporting rule.

 

[Abbey]

9 hours ago, Robert C said:

WOOF, any deposit of $10 K gets reported to the feds, not sure about withdrawals?

I'm pretty sure banks report withdrawals.

https://lawsoup.org/legal-guides/taxpayer/what-transactions-must-be-reported-to-the-irs/ (not sure how accurate, just a quick search hit)

I just pulled out an "HK Sear" amount and it triggered some additional ID verification. (It also exceeded the amount of cash in the bank branch so I had to split cash/check on the deal.) And according to that link, withdrawals above $10k or smaller ones that look like staging to exceed $10k will be reported. It's pretty hard to not trigger that. Let alone since I moved the money from savings (different bank) to checking, both sides of that move were likely reported.

[Uncle Zeek]

40 minutes ago, Abbey said:

I'm pretty sure banks report withdrawals.

https://lawsoup.org/legal-guides/taxpayer/what-transactions-must-be-reported-to-the-irs/ (not sure how accurate, just a quick search hit)

I just pulled out an "HK Sear" amount and it triggered some additional ID verification. (It also exceeded the amount of cash in the bank branch so I had to split cash/check on the deal.) And according to that link, withdrawals above $10k or smaller ones that look like staging to exceed $10k will be reported. It's pretty hard to not trigger that. Let alone since I moved the money from savings (different bank) to checking, both sides of that move were likely reported.

 

I'm seeing banks doing currency transaction reports on smaller amounts - even as little as $600 depending on the circumstances (a customer who paid cash on a credit card bill).

Also seeing more money order places requiring identification info (SSN etc) to purchase money orders in even small amounts.  Makes it easier to track how much cash a given person is handling compared to what is being reported on a tax return.

 

[MEW]

I've been told by 2 separate banks that "Cashiers checks" are no different that a personal check and still run through the same process to "clear", and even wire transfers while may be immediate on paper they still also require time to clear even though they go through a different process. I recently wired money to my son in another state and it took overnight to show up in his account as available. Too much fraud in the world to think otherwise. My main bank is pretty judicious verifying account numbers etc. but the lady I deal with is very up front about the fact it's not instant. I also had a buddy on a car sale wire get it reversed after delivering the car which is "supposed" to be impossible but it happened. Time is the only way to be sure IMO.