Jump to content

Classified Pre-samples now transferable


Recommended Posts

For those looking for the Morphy's MP5 now transferable results today.  They went between $65K and $80K. 

If I recall correctly these prices listed include the buyers premium assuming it is the 23% full premium but can will adjust downward in the next week or so once buyers get the 3% wire transfer discount.  You can watch the links below and see if these are indeed pre buyers premium if the hammer price jumps up in the next day or so but the main listing page appears to show the pre-buyers premium price and the actual webpage for that lot shows the total with BP price.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/AuctionResults.aspx?auctionid=607&ClosedSessionsOnly=1

Example Lot 1020 shows $65K on the results page above but $79,950 on the lot page ($65000 x 1.23 BP = $79950)

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=603069

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=603071

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=603072

 

It does not include sales tax which will be another $5Kish on top of those prices.

Edited by jbntex
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not like 4000 machineguns are just going up for sale tomorrow.  How many are still in police departments.  How many owners will just keep them or not even realize they are transferable.  There are a lot of owners who gave up their SOT years ago who are not internet savy. Etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, jbntex said:

For those looking for the Morphy's MP5 now transferable results today.  They went between $65K and $80K. 

If I recall correctly these prices listed include the buyers premium assuming it is the 23% full premium but can will adjust downward in the next week or so once buyers get the 3% wire transfer discount.  You can watch the links below and see if these are indeed pre buyers premium if the hammer price jumps up in the next day or so but the main listing page appears to show the pre-buyers premium price and the actual webpage for that lot shows the total with BP price.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/AuctionResults.aspx?auctionid=607&ClosedSessionsOnly=1

Example Lot 1020 shows $65K on the results page above but $79,950 on the lot page ($65000 x 1.23 BP = $79950)

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=603069

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=603071

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=603072

 

It does not include sales tax which will be another $5Kish on top of those prices.

Even if the guns remain transferable, whomever the buyer/s are are not particularly smart folk.   As RR PP guns the values are not near that high IMO.   I'd want 120 month guarantee, not 120 days.   My transfers are still over 6 months as of today.    I was not aware Wed. mornings are big day drinking days?

Interesting to see how some rule changes require public notices, comment periods, and publication, while others just seem to occur in a mushroom garden?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think most of the ATF rulings just materialize out of thin air, no public notice or comment period, etc.   If, for instance, they were to decide to declare another amnesty period, it could just happen since it has already been established that they have authority to do that without Congressional/Executive approval.  That's my take, anyway, but I admit I'm not that knowledgeable.  If I was I'd be doing a lot better at the buying and selling stuff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

Even if the guns remain transferable, whomever the buyer/s are are not particularly smart folk.   As RR PP guns the values are not near that high IMO.   I'd want 120 month guarantee, not 120 days.   My transfers are still over 6 months as of today.    I was not aware Wed. mornings are big day drinking days?

Interesting to see how some rule changes require public notices, comment periods, and publication, while others just seem to occur in a mushroom garden?

What exactly makes you think the RR PP guns value wouldn't be that high? There has never been a transferable 1980's production factory Hk Mp5 PP RR offered for sale. Ever. So these are setting the bar, so to speak.

Some people don't buy MGs for investments, nor just to spray lead downrange as fast as possible. Some people are collectors who want original, authentic examples of firearms in their collections. And they are willing to pay more to own one.
I'd even bet that some collectors would still pay more for a factory RR PP Mp5 even if they were told they wouldn't be able to sell it. Ever.
And of all the people who collect firearms, the collectors of HK firearms don't seem to let money be an issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So how would one who has a paper form-4 keeper know if that gun is transferable?  Is there someone specific to talk to at the ATF NFA Branch that can identify by Make/SN?

I know a few folks with keepers, I bet they have no idea if the pre-86 was owned by a police department  or merely a Dealer Sample its whole life?  Is there a way to check?

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Chef said:

What exactly makes you think the RR PP guns value wouldn't be that high? There has never been a transferable 1980's production factory Hk Mp5 PP RR offered for sale. Ever. So these are setting the bar, so to speak.

Some people don't buy MGs for investments, nor just to spray lead downrange as fast as possible. Some people are collectors who want original, authentic examples of firearms in their collections. And they are willing to pay more to own one.
I'd even bet that some collectors would still pay more for a factory RR PP Mp5 even if they were told they wouldn't be able to sell it. Ever.
And of all the people who collect firearms, the collectors of HK firearms don't seem to let money be an issue.

Since you mentioned it... none of those guns are in the original configuration they were sold and two of the three have for sure been refinished.  With that many guns, there are likely to be a few that have not been messed with, but these listed fail to pass the "original as sold" test.   I'm a bit of a collector and now that we can surmise there will be "hundreds" or more of 80's HK in the market, that means they are not rare.....anymore.   I have some very rare stuff, but rarity has little effect on price.   Quite possible the buyers on these are not up to speed on the math of what is now in the pipeline?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure how to interpret all the NFA Branch kindness lately.  I've always had good people on the phone, etc. But the overall theme of sudden efficiency seems so odd (perhaps suspicious?) given the overall less favorable climate with the political admin. 

 

I hope there is no Trojan horse in this "gift"

"I fear Greeks even when they bear gifts"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/7/2024 at 10:57 PM, The Leak said:

So what are dealers  seeing on this?

Anyone have anything that was a sample that is now transferable??


 

Current Dealers are seeing value go up.

There are also many Ex FFL/SOT who kept some guns ,that became "transferables" overnight, I am sure they also are seeing value go up.

Our Government sure loves to create "wealth" from thin air in every expect , hopefully one day they can make it rain gold . 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, kamarshall2000@yahoo.com said:

I'm not sure how to interpret all the NFA Branch kindness lately.  I've always had good people on the phone, etc. But the overall theme of sudden efficiency seems so odd (perhaps suspicious?) given the overall less favorable climate with the political admin. 

 

I hope there is no Trojan horse in this "gift"

"I fear Greeks even when they bear gifts"

I was just discussing this same scenario yesterday with a friend, Trojan horse sure seems concerning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi,

I'm not an FFL/SOT but I have friends that fit that description.  Each of my FFL/SOT friends with pre-samples had some turn into transferable using the eforms-populate-eform4 test.  No denial pop-ups.  I'm not sure if that is a reliable test but it is a start.  (The recent transfers in the last 3 months on these firearms had no restrictions on the Form 3 but lack of the dealer sample red stamp has often been an oversight.)

Everyone in the industry has been watching BATF clean-up the registry.  The "fill in the blank" with some other guns S/N issue has forced BATF to go back to the original paperwork to get what they feel is the correct description/model.  Some less than honest folks were turning inexpensive NFA firearms into expensive NFA firearms by falsifying information on forms when transferred.

It does remind us that the pen gives as well as takes away.  I hope this "give" sticks. 

Grasshopper

Edited by Grasshopper
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Mark2 said:

That thread went downhill fast, SEC Violations, lawsuits???

Yeah. That was about the most ridiculous thing I’ve read in a while. Lol. The hell does the SEC have to do with this? O.o:D

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

SEC handles insider trading and investment issues-machine guns are now considered investments and a commodity which falls under the SEC jurisdiction…yeah I know my stuff too. 
 

Machine guns being sold as “investment grade” and even the article in the WSJ from Frank G stated MG’s are sound investments. If someone really wanted to push things, it’s not that much of a stretch boys and girls. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/7/2024 at 9:57 PM, The Leak said:

So what are dealers  seeing on this?

Anyone have anything that was a sample that is now transferable??


 

Yeah, four of my pre samples are now transferable.  None of my MP5's changed status but other guns did, some I would never have picked for that blessing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Bill in Bama said:

 MP40, M1A1, M3A1, HK33.

I guess you can add a MG34 to the list. I saw it on the Snugbus discussion board with an interesting back story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/11/2024 at 9:54 AM, Got Uzi said:

SEC handles insider trading and investment issues-machine guns are now considered investments and a commodity which falls under the SEC jurisdiction…yeah I know my stuff too. 
 

Machine guns being sold as “investment grade” and even the article in the WSJ from Frank G stated MG’s are sound investments. If someone really wanted to push things, it’s not that much of a stretch boys and girls. 

Which is still ridiculous. You believe tangible goods are under the prevue of the SEC? Holy crap that’s even funnier! :DO.o:D

Edited by damcv62
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Spartan said:

What non HK guns are folks now seeing as transferable? 

Tommy, AUG, 240, 249, MK46, G3, FN FAL. I’m forgetting some. We had over 20 flip so far, waiting for the 53’s to flip then it’ll be over 40. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, damcv62 said:

Tommy, AUG, 240, 249, MK46, G3, FN FAL. I’m forgetting some. We had over 20 flip so far, waiting for the 53’s to flip then it’ll be over 40. 

Are you implying more are to come? I thought my MP5's would change, but they haven't, I assumed the 4000 or so making the jump would all take place at once.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

SEC handles insider trading and investment issues-machine guns are now considered investments and a commodity which falls under the SEC jurisdiction…yeah I know my stuff too. 
 

Machine guns being sold as “investment grade” and even the article in the WSJ from Frank G stated MG’s are sound investments. If someone really wanted to push things, it’s not that much of a stretch boys and girls. 

Insider trading laws only apply to publicly traded companies. In real estate development and other business ventures, insider knowledge is the guiding principle of investing, as it should be. Investing without inside knowledge is on the spectrum of gambling or hoping. The SEC would no more have anything to do with MGs than it would a private real estate deal.

Edited by JoshNC
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Bill in Bama said:

Are you implying more are to come? I thought my MP5's would change, but they haven't, I assumed the 4000 or so making the jump would all take place at once.

That’s why I keep saying the Ian video was bad. Half truths and run with it. Don’t trust YouTubers. It’s not like atf just pushed a button and magically they all flipped. Think about it. They have to manually check each gun, all the way back to the first form it was registered with. They are working on it, and it’s an on going process. Who knows when it will be done. I’ve seen stuff change weekly over the last 3-4 months that supports my take. But it’s worth what you paid for it, YMMV. ;)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, damcv62 said:

That’s why I keep saying the Ian video was bad. Half truths and run with it. Don’t trust YouTubers. It’s not like atf just pushed a button and magically they all flipped. Think about it. They have to manually check each gun, all the way back to the first form it was registered with. They are working on it, and it’s an on going process. Who knows when it will be done. I’ve seen stuff change weekly over the last 3-4 months that supports my take. But it’s worth what you paid for it, YMMV. ;)

OK, probably right, but who knows what is going on within ATF?  I do keep checking my inventory, creating mock Form 4 transfers to see what, if anything, has changed among my stock.  Maybe there's still hope.  Of course, as has been stated here several times, what the right hand giveth, the left can just as easily take away.  I don't have immediate plans to sell any of my pre-samples anyway, but if they still show as changed to trans guns in 6-12 months, then I think I can fairly safely assume they are in the latter classification for good, or until.....

As has also been stated at least once on this thread, what is most unbelievable to me about this whole thing is that it is happening in the midst of a very anti-gun administration.  You just can't make this stuff up.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey! I resemble that remark! At least the boomer part, nobody can control that( not even Biden!). As for profiting, well, maybe. However I've owned some my miracle guns for decades now,  with no expectation of making much more than a price that would keep up with inflation.  If I can now reap a little boost, it will only offset my bloodbath in crypto a couple of years ago. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Thumpy said:

If you all would of fought harder 50 years ago they would corrected this then

Exactly how do you think that would have been possible? William Hughes amendment was stuck in at the last minute and Wayne LaPierre was more than happy to take the other wins while throwing machine gun guys under the bus. Curious how you would have handled this situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, riflejunky said:

Exactly how do you think that would have been possible? William Hughes amendment was stuck in at the last minute and Wayne LaPierre was more than happy to take the other wins while throwing machine gun guys under the bus. Curious how you would have handled this situation.

In this situation you could of done what just happened but 50 years ago… adding the wrongfully labeled pre samples to transferable list but you all didn’t… 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Thumpy said:

In this situation you could of done what just happened but 50 years ago… adding the wrongfully labeled pre samples to transferable list but you all didn’t… 

How exactly? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Thumpy said:

By getting groups/lawyers together like they just did 

So you are saying that a group should have pursued something that no one was aware of 50 years ago because the Atf made a judgement you just found out about? Were you working on this judgement that just reclassified the guns?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Thumpy said:

Lol I’ve seen these boomers drive the prices up lol prices will never come down they have their investments to protect… only thing we are about to see is these old dudes profit heavy 

Not sure they told you this, but MG's are not like the participation trophies they gave you in school?  Boomers don't just hand out MG's to everyone?   I can however send you a forum participation trophy if you can swing the 19.95 S&H?   I can make it gender neutral if you want and engraved "entitled", since your generation is a little confused on several fronts?

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I own 5 Presamples. I know at least 3 were police guns. 3 days ago there were all samples still. Today I look and a ithaca m3a1 is now transferrable. A gun that I bought nos untouched. Yet it was a police gun oddly.  So the atf is still in the process of switching them over 

Edited by huggytree
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Chef said:

Damn, you're a bitter little grasshopper, aren't you.

Most of the older guys worked hard to earn enough money to buy the cool stuff. And we sacrificed the comforts and pleasures of today, so we could live better tomorrow. 
Maybe work a little harder, save a little more, (cut out the morning Starbucks, the vaping, and drive an older car, don't go on vacations, and so many other little things that all contribute to increasing your savings) and one day you too can have some cool toys to play with.

And if you want to throw some blame around, maybe look at your own generation. I don't see you guys making things better. If anything, you are all making thing worse.

Not blaming or pointing at any one here, but one can do all that as you have said, or at least work their ass off and have great savings ,me, and still have a spouse that will never let you spend that kind of money on a transferable. Now if the Hughes amend went away, then my wife’s leverage in this instance, goes away as well and I can buy and turn parts kits into original working conditions again, or at least maybe the transferable prices come down to what post samples sell for , a few thousand. Maybe this becomes a reality when Brandon Herrera gets to congress !!! 

Edited by Signal_4
Additional
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Chef said:

Damn, you're a bitter little grasshopper, aren't you.

Most of the older guys worked hard to earn enough money to buy the cool stuff. And we sacrificed the comforts and pleasures of today, so we could live better tomorrow. 
Maybe work a little harder, save a little more, (cut out the morning Starbucks, the vaping, and drive an older car, don't go on vacations, and so many other little things that all contribute to increasing your savings) and one day you too can have some cool toys to play with.

And if you want to throw some blame around, maybe look at your own generation. I don't see you guys making things better. If anything, you are all making thing worse.

Not bitter at all your generation is the generation who has literally sold this country out in the name of more profits… kicking the can down the road for my generation to fix.

My generation is/has been doing more to fight unconstitutional laws then yours ever dreamed of. 

I’m 27 I own 8 transferables so I definitely get working hard to get things. But what I said stands. 

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Signal_4 said:

Not blaming or pointing at any one here, but one can do all that as you have said, or at least work their ass off and have great savings ,me, and still have a spouse that will never let you spend that kind of money on a transferable. Now if the Hughes amend went away, then my wife’s leverage in this instance, goes away as well and I can buy and turn parts kits into original working conditions again, or at least maybe the transferable prices come down to what post samples sell for , a few thousand. Maybe this becomes a reality when Brandon Herrera gets to congress !!! 


Honestly, I would rethink my spouse if she won't let you spend your money on what you want.
Not only does my wife encourage me to buy whatever makes me happy, she won't even let me consider selling some transferables to fund a larger down payment on a house!
She knows that some of them would be darn near impossible to replace later, and to just keep what I've got because a person can always earn more money, but they can't often find some of the more desirable MGs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Frank Iannamico said:

The downside (for dealers) is far fewer "1/2 price" pre-May machine guns.

I wonder if there was this much suspicion during the 1968 Amnesty?  

I'm sure there was.   Have been speaking with a client who is getting up there in years and has several transferables, all purchased in the early '80s.  He talked about how his dad and grandpa had MG's that they refused to register in 1968 because they didn't trust the Federal government on these issues . . . and of course, the market value of those guns went to zero (no, I don't know what happened to them and haven't asked).

Sometimes I wonder how many transferables there would be if more guys had stepped forward and registered the MG's they had back then.

Edited by Uncle Zeek
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Chef said:


Honestly, I would rethink my spouse if she won't let you spend your money on what you want.
Not only does my wife encourage me to buy whatever makes me happy, she won't even let me consider selling some transferables to fund a larger down payment on a house!
She knows that some of them would be darn near impossible to replace later, and to just keep what I've got because a person can always earn more money, but they can't often find some of the more desirable MGs.

Wise wife!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Frank,

I'm not a FFL/SOT but chatting with a friend that that is and has some pre-samples.  These have passed the "populate eform 4" test but do not have a letter specifically stating these are transferable:

MP5SD - No importer marks other than the HK Virginia address

F/S Uzi - Imported by Interarms (Sam) marked

MP-40 - WWII uncut.  No importer marks

Glad to add to the confusion :)

Enjoy,

K2

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Uncle Zeek said:

I'm sure there was.   Have been speaking with a client who is getting up there in years and has several transferables, all purchased in the early '80s.  He talked about how his dad and grandpa had MG's that they refused to register in 1968 because they didn't trust the Federal government on these issues . . . and of course, the market value of those guns went to zero (no, I don't know what happened to them and haven't asked).

Sometimes I wonder how many transferables there would be if more guys had stepped forward and registered the MG's they had back then.

If there were another amnesty, I would hope the Govt would handle it a little differently than posting a flyer on the local post office! And keep the registration period open for a little longer than 30 days. 
I would speculate that a lot more people would have taken advantage if this amnesty if they would have known about it. Not everyone goes to the post office every month, and of those that do, not all of them bother to check out the bulletin board.
And since the internet and forums weren't a thing back then, word didn't spread very fast, so I'm sure the registration period ended before most people even knew it existed.
Even if they kept it open for 90 days, and sent out flyers to every FFL holder to post in their shop, there are still a good percentage of people who just don't trust the Govt and wouldn't register theirs anyway.
I would suspect a similar number of people today wouldn't trust another amnesty and refuse to register theirs as well. The Govt of today is far less trustworthy than the Govt in '68.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Frank Iannamico said:

Has anyone seen anything specific about the preMays that are showing up as transferable VS those that are not?

Importer marks or lack of etc.

Mine 

all are original factory MGs

PreMay  now "transferable" 

H&R M14 no markings,

MP5, 1972 dated,  no markings, but the mag wall says "made in Germany exclusively for SACO"

NESA BAR no markings

original Israeli UZI no markings other than Action Arms

Chinese Type 56 (stamped receiver) DLO marked on the barrel.

Post May LIA1 now "transferable" Century Arms import on the barrel

Pre May NON-transferable

Savage 1928 Thompson SAC import marked, but also has PD markings KPD  

Swedish K no import marks.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm an SOT with eforms set-up and I can view my inventory, electronically.  Can someone tell me how you check your inventory that is currently listed as dealer samples to see if they are now transferable?  I'm new to this process and could use your expertise.  Happy to call someone if that helps - just direct me and I'll follow-up.  Thank you!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sign on to your account,  go to form 4 application like you are creating a transfer.  Enter your info and click next. Next on the following page,  then go to firearm tab, click add firearm or firearm list, I don't remember which it's called.  Your inventory drops down, click the gun you're checking on and if you fet a green success message it's niw transferable.  Otherwise you'll get an error message. Easy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Pollard Street Pawn & Gun said:

I'm an SOT with eforms set-up and I can view my inventory, electronically.  Can someone tell me how you check your inventory that is currently listed as dealer samples to see if they are now transferable?  I'm new to this process and could use your expertise.  Happy to call someone if that helps - just direct me and I'll follow-up.  Thank you!!

You can make a Form 3.  When you add an item from your inventory to it, transferables should have a white background, pre-samples orange, posties red.

People are also making Form 4s and checking to see if an inventory item can be added or not.  If it can be added, they are assuming it is transferable. 

I cannot say for sure how accurate either method is when trying to anticipate what guns the ATF will ultimately determine are transferable or not, but that it what people seem to be doing.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Pollard Street Pawn & Gun said:

I'm an SOT with eforms set-up and I can view my inventory, electronically.  Can someone tell me how you check your inventory that is currently listed as dealer samples to see if they are now transferable?  I'm new to this process and could use your expertise.  Happy to call someone if that helps - just direct me and I'll follow-up.  Thank you!!

Or...After you bring your inventory up look to the far right under the RESTRICTIONS column, if the gun in question is now "transferable" the restrictions column will be blank.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...