New to the Transferable World

[Jwestak]

Hello all,

I am new to the world of transferables, I have a few suppressors and SBRs but no MGs. I am currently looking at options of starting small with an M10 or M11 and working my way up with Lage parts/uppers. Ultimately, my goal is a Registered AR15/M16. But I'm not sure if I want to dish out the cash for that yet. Whatever I get will be a shooter, with plans for my children to have it when I'm gone. So I have a few questions..

If you were to go the M10/M11-9/M11A1 route, which would you choose? I like that the M11A1 is a smaller form factor frame and grip that would likely be converted to a 9mm grip. The M11-9 would be already where it needs to be, but with a slightly longer frame. The M10 frame is thicker/wider/taller and more "robust". However in 45, it has a larger grip, possible hassle for average/smaller hands?

If you were to bite the bullet and get an Registered AR15/M16, what would be the best option? I am not looking for the top dollar collectors Colts, as "lower" priced conversion would be just fine with me. I know there are a few SP1s for sale, but they have the large front takedown pins, and I am unfamiliar with the adapters to drop small pin uppers onto one and if they are a hassle.

When it comes to NFA trusts, Mine is a traditional one. Some people do everything on a "Single Shot". Is there any reason to not have a MG on the same trust as your other NFA items?

 

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

James

[bauerdb]

MGs are a very expensive habit.  I mean hobby.  It is hard to make a recommendation without a budget.  If you want a M16 you should buy a M16.  A MAC isn't going to help you buy a M16.  M16 prices are historically strong.  I wouldn't buy a MG just because it is cheap.  Try some out at a local shoot. 

[Jwestak]

1 hour ago, bauerdb said:

MGs are a very expensive habit.  I mean hobby.  It is hard to make a recommendation without a budget.  If you want a M16 you should buy a M16.  A MAC isn't going to help you buy a M16.  M16 prices are historically strong.  I wouldn't buy a MG just because it is cheap.  Try some out at a local shoot. 

That they are.. I have only gotten to shoot an M16 once and it was a blast. Budget wise I was considering a MAC due to the price and upgrades available. However the top end of my budget is 25k. Which apart from some past auctions I've seen. It seems to be the absolute lowest end of the M16 range. Assuming very few available at that price.

[bushwacker51]

My first machine gun was a powder springs mac-10. I was 21 years old paid 350 dollars for the gun. 200 for transfer. Was in collage at  the time and that was allot of money back then. I am 64 years old now. I love my mac-10 have a Lange upper and my son loves shooting it. Great investment. They are super fast shooting and would be a little cautious about letting a young shooter shoot the gun. Just my humble opinion. Years latter in the 80s bought my colt m-16 for 2000 dollars. I must say its a blast to shoot have run thousands of rounds through it and only thing I have ever broke is a bolt. Simple fix. I bought a military folding bi pod that attaches above the bayonet lug and I let the young people shoot it on the ground in the prone position. No chance of muzzle climb or accidents. Very little kick and everyone including myself that shoots it loves it. They are expensive but they are fun and great to shoot.

[Jwestak]

48 minutes ago, bushwacker51 said:

My first machine gun was a powder springs mac-10. I was 21 years old paid 350 dollars for the gun. 200 for transfer. Was in collage at  the time and that was allot of money back then. I am 64 years old now. I love my mac-10 have a Lange upper and my son loves shooting it. Great investment. They are super fast shooting and would be a little cautious about letting a young shooter shoot the gun. Just my humble opinion. Years latter in the 80s bought my colt m-16 for 2000 dollars. I must say its a blast to shoot have run thousands of rounds through it and only thing I have ever broke is a bolt. Simple fix. I bought a military folding bi pod that attaches above the bayonet lug and I let the young people shoot it on the ground in the prone position. No chance of muzzle climb or accidents. Very little kick and everyone including myself that shoots it loves it. They are expensive but they are fun and great to shoot.

My kids are definitely too young to shoot anything like this right now. In the future it will be an option. Definitely will be cautious, I remember reading about the unfortunate accident a few years ago at a MG shoots.

I'm in my early 30s and wish I was in a position to buy something even a few years ago. But with age comes more responsibility and wisdom.

I'm eyeing a Mac 10 and M11/9 now. Just can't decide on which. The M16 isn't off the table, but it is toeing the line of being responsible and stretching my budget. Ultimately I know if I settle on a Mac, I'll be spending more in the future on an M16 platform.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Jwestak

[KickStand]

I’ve own all that you’ve listed and
My advice is if you’re going to be on a budget in the future and you can swing an sp1 conversion now or non Colt RR, do it. 
I enjoy all of my Macs and they’re a lot of great aftermarket accessories and hopefully more to come. At the end of the day AR/m-16 are just plug and play and everything is already (readily) available for them. If you want a 22 kit, get one from PSA for $169 with 3 mags. Good luck doing that with any Mac. If you want a belt fed, you can buy it now too.
If you want to get your feet wet and try it with the likely hood of more money to throw around in the future, get a Mac. All Mac options are great and it’s hard to go wrong with any of them.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by KickStand

[Chef]

My advice would be to go big right out of the gate.
If you just want to send lead downrange as fast as possible for the least investment, getting a mac is probably your best bet.
But if you take pride in ownership, don't get a mac. And don't skimp on a "budget" M16 either. Just save up, get a second, part time job or sell off your newer car/truck and buy something older but still reliable to drive and put all that money into a real Colt M16. A regular guy spends a lot of money on non-necessary stuff. Things like eating out, morning starbucks, smokes, new cars, big screen TVs, vacations, etc. You cut back on all of that and you'll see your bank account grow quickly.
If your goal is to get your kids into it, what would be better for them to start shooting? A mac or a M16 with a .22 conversion kit?
And if you intend to pass whatever you buy on to them, think about if you were 21 and your father was going to pass something on to you. What would you rather get, a Sp1 conversion or a Mac? Or would you rather get a real Colt M16? That's like buying a Tisas 1911A1 instead of a real, USGI 1911A1 because you can get a new Tisas for around $300 instead of the $1500 a real 1911A1 would cost you. And when you pass that on to your kids, what do you think they are going to think? "Wow, a Turkish 1911A1 clone, so cool! You were so lucky to live in the golden age of firearms and of all the cool ones you could have bought, this is what you chose! Thanks so much of passing this treasure on to me!" ... I don't think so. They are going to think their father was a cheapskate.
I remember when I was a kid, my father had a lot of cool classic cars and other things. Some of which I would have loved to inherit.
But he was not a "keeper", he liked to wheel and deal all the time. So the cool stuff never stuck around for long.
And when he passes, anything he leaves to me, I intend to sell, as it's all basically newer stuff or lower budget. Nothing vintage or collectable or rare.  So if you want to leave a legacy for your kids, if you want them to think fondly of you when they use what you left them, leave them good, top shelf stuff. Otherwise they will probably sell it off and that will be the extent of your legacy. That their father bought junk.
And yes, I think MACs and SP1 conversions are the Hi-Points or Taurus of the MG world.

[rhouston8]

^ I disagree strongly with all this. Real M16 or converted AR15 for a 21 yr old---they won't care ...and the huge grin after a mag dump will be exactly the same. They won't give one rip whether it's a A1 or A2 or a conversion or govt marked or anything else. Nobody I take shooting gives one rip whether its a hk clone or a factory hk...as long as it has a properly functioning legal sear in it.

With all these MGs you are buying the paperwork/legality. The actual physical guns/metal is worth oh...a few hundred bucks maybe.

You need to decide whether you are primarily a

1. Shooter.   You intend to shoot the gun a lot. Have fun at the range etc with it. Actually shoot it a lot.

OR

2. You are a collector. It will be a safe queen and will rarely come out and you'll baby it. It's more of an investment and something to pass down to kids etc etc. It has provenance etc.

 

If you are a shooter (primarily) then just get what actually performs. Get the SP1 (regardless of take down pin size. It's no big deal). Brand doesn't matter. Condition of the gun does. For $25k you def. can get a AR15 conversion gun and that would be a GREAT gun for any shooter-grade collection. Seriously. They are legos , plug n play. Tons of  options. And yes it will shoot perfectly fine- It's hard to screw up a AR15 receiver. Most anything can be fixed regardless.  Parts are cheap. I highly rec' this option if you can afford it.   On the other hand $25k is a lot of $$ and is a big jump into mg land. If your budget is just under $20k then I rec' an Uzi full size. If your budget is more in the sub $15k then I rec a Mac for sure. Any mac really...but esp the M11/9. It's the most common and has the most add on options. You'll want a Lage upper for it ( $1-$3k) in both pistol cal and the rifle caliber too.

 

If you are more of a collector like Chef above then sure...go buy a M16A2 for $40k and put it in your safe and pull it out with white gloves on to show friends at your dinner party. That's fine as well. You are in collector world. Much much more expensive and snobby...and you'll delve into the specific provenance of the guns and you have a LOT to learn. This is NOT the path most people start on but it is what old former shooters tend to migrate to when they ....stop shooting so much and instead just collect mgs and talk about how fancy theirs are, etc etc. All fine.

 

 

[Jwestak]

Appreciate the input. My father has all sorts of oddities that will be passed along to us. Quite frankly whatever is passed along will be appreciated. I hope to raise my kids the same way, and if they aren't into any of it. They can dump them when they inherit it.

I would agree that for a shooter, it doesn't matter what it says. As long as it's legal. If my father had any MGs, I wouldn't complain what it was.

I dipped my toes in yesterday and purchased a M10/45. It's roll marked TX, But from what I can tell it appears to be fully welded. And has intact Cobray Logos (possibly restamped)? Admittedly I probably jumped the gun, but the price was right. If I don't like it, I'll jump on an M11, or the right AR/M16. I'll let you know once I get the approval in a year haha.

[Matt T]

Congrats on the M10/45 purchase…that was my first MG and wondered for months if I should have waited and saved for a ‘nicer’ MG. No regrets - it is a Powder Springs model, so has some history behind it. I skipped a Lage upper but added the Lage slim side-folding stock, finger groove grip with mag release, and extended safety - I personally love the high rate of fire with the factory upper. Aim at the belly button, squeeze off a One-Mississippi, keep everything in a torso target at 20 yards. I added a AC556 later for a rifle-caliber MG, and am glad to have two separate MGs instead of one nicer model. 
 

Everyone has their own tastes - enjoy buying mags, ammo, and accessories for that M10 and savor the bullet hose it is!

[rhouston8]

excellent. m10/45 was my 2cd mg purchase way back...$3000 if i recall. I ended up putting a Lage upper on it. Great gun. You'll enjoy yours too I'm sure.

[JJX]

Congratulations. I suggest getting a Lage 9mm upper right now. The cost of 9 vs 45 is magnified when shooting full auto. Wait times are averaging way under 12 months so I would order the Lage upper and butt stock now.

[Bwanalewis]

My first MG was an Uzi 10+ years ago.  He had a Mac for 3.5k and the Uzi for 6.5k.  I settled on the uzi and never looked back.  The nice thing is that every time I discuss the possibility of adding to the fleet, I show my wife the value of the Uzi today...  I know the financial planners will have a field day, but nothing better than being to shoot your investments all the way into retirement.  By the way, MGs are like potato chips, eating one is not an option.  Congratulations !!!!

[Chef]

The UZI is a very good choice.
An UZI is a very versatile SMG. All kinds of different options to make it do what you want.

And the big bonus is it's an iconic firearm with history and a "coolness" factor to it. Things a MAC will never have. Unless owning the gangbangers #1 favorite bullet hose for drive-bys is "cool" to you.

[Jwestak]

 

Thanks guys. I know I've been second guessing going with the Mac, but I'm hoping it will scratch the itch at least until I decide to upgrade. I put myself on the Max 10-15 waiting list already. As for uppers, definitely going 9mm. Trying to decide between the suomi uppers or the 10/9 mk 2. If Lage wasn't in the market, I probably wouldn't have ever chosen a Mac.

Chef, I'm sure you have a wonderful collection that doesn't include a Hi-Point of the MG world. Maybe you can show me the error of my ways at Birchwood sometime.

[Bwanalewis]

3 hours ago, Jwestak said:

 

Thanks guys. I know I've been second guessing going with the Mac, but I'm hoping it will scratch the itch at least until I decide to upgrade. I put myself on the Max 10-15 waiting list already. As for uppers, definitely going 9mm. Trying to decide between the suomi uppers or the 10/9 mk 2. If Lage wasn't in the market, I probably wouldn't have ever chosen a Mac.

Chef, I'm sure you have a wonderful collection that doesn't include a Hi-Point of the MG world. Maybe you can show me the error of my ways at Birchwood sometime.

I think the MAC is a great choice!  Lage upper with the Suomi setup is pretty cool.  You also have some .556 options.  Sounds like you bought the MAC at a good price, good start to the collection.  Enjoy!

[Bwana]

Congrats!  Good choice. The new modularity of the mac series with Lage uppers and add-ons provides a lot of fun options in several calibers, including a good functioning rifle caliber.  You have to get into M16 and HK sears before you find another platform that runs really well in both subgun and rifle calibers.  And you can run a drum (cheap and no modifications) in one of the subgun configurations.  Very versatile.  Enjoy safely!

[CandRHolder]

I'd suggest buying 9mm in larger quantities, (10K) as it'll save you money in the long run.

 

Btw, You just saved money and no longer have to buy an M16 with the new Lage 556 Uppers available for the MAC.

 

How about we get Congress to add a new "MG Spent Ammo" tax deduction in 2024?

Edited December 2, 2023 by CandRHolder
typo

[Uncle Zeek]

On 11/25/2023 at 5:48 PM, Jwestak said:

When it comes to NFA trusts, Mine is a traditional one. Some people do everything on a "Single Shot". Is there any reason to not have a MG on the same trust as your other NFA items?

 

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

James

Howdy James.  When you say "traditional" NFA trust, do you mean a kiosk/internet one, or one that was drafted specifically for you by an attorney in your state? (Even though I'm applying for a law license in Alaska, I wouldn't offer to draft one there until I became very familiar with trust laws in AK).

I can think of reasons to have all NFA firearms in a single trust, and I can also think of reasons to put each item in a separate trust.  It depends on the Grantors intentions for the use and future distribution of the firearms.

If your existing trust is a generic kiosk trust, you probably should have an AK attorney redraft it with MG ownership in mind.  Main concern is that its drafted to prevent any possible unintentional illegal transfers.  Not a big deal with an SBR or suppressor, as such an item can always just be destroyed (relatively low cost and replaceable).  But a transferable MG can't be replaced, so the NFA trust has to be a bit more 'robust'.

[Chef]

11 hours ago, Uncle Zeek said:

Howdy James.  When you say "traditional" NFA trust, do you mean a kiosk/internet one, or one that was drafted specifically for you by an attorney in your state? (Even though I'm applying for a law license in Alaska, I wouldn't offer to draft one there until I became very familiar with trust laws in AK).

I can think of reasons to have all NFA firearms in a single trust, and I can also think of reasons to put each item in a separate trust.  It depends on the Grantors intentions for the use and future distribution of the firearms.

If your existing trust is a generic kiosk trust, you probably should have an AK attorney redraft it with MG ownership in mind.  Main concern is that its drafted to prevent any possible unintentional illegal transfers.  Not a big deal with an SBR or suppressor, as such an item can always just be destroyed (relatively low cost and replaceable).  But a transferable MG can't be replaced, so the NFA trust has to be a bit more 'robust'.

Can you expand on your statement please?
I would think that when you submitted a copy of your trust with your application to transfer packet, if the transfer to your trust was approved, you should be GTG and wouldn't need any further legal advise regarding the trust in question.

[Uncle Zeek]

5 hours ago, Chef said:

Can you expand on your statement please?
I would think that when you submitted a copy of your trust with your application to transfer packet, if the transfer to your trust was approved, you should be GTG and wouldn't need any further legal advise regarding the trust in question.

Sure.  Bear in mind that this is not legal advice, and I'm only licensed in Texas, so I can't speak to other state laws.  I've had clients bring me their kiosk type trusts, so I've seen what the mass produced products look like, and will sometimes redraft ("restate") their trusts if I'm not satisfied with what I see.  Have a colleague with an active case in which the firearm owner died without leaving proper trust instructions to his successor, and the NFA firearm will most likely have to be surrendered to ATF for destruction.  Wouldn't be a big deal if this were an SBR or suppressor, but I'm reluctant to have a transferable MG destroyed if it can be avoided.  Can't say more on that until the case is done.

The ATF is not normally evaluating a trust to determine whether it is legal under the laws of the state in which is was formed, but rather they're looking for the bare minimum requirements to be acceptable for their purposes (e.g. who are "responsible persons" under the trust? are the responsibile persons all identified in the trust? did all responsible persons submit 5320.23 with photos and fingerprints?).  A typical firearms trust will say that a prohibited person may not possess trust firearms, but is often silent on what happens if a trustee becomes a prohibited person.  Can get into a very sticky wicket if a prohibited person is found in possession of an NFA firearm and he wasn't removed as trustee.

One of the funnier (funny to me anyways) outcomes of ATF analysis of trusts sent to them was that quite a few trusts all named the same beneficiary.  Presumably, this was a trust that got shared online which gun owners downloaded.  They changed the trust name, grantor name, and trustees, but failed to change the name of the beneficiary who was already in the form.   So, someday, this person might end up owning hundreds of NFA firearms unless the grantors change their trusts.  Yes, I'll get a cite for you on this later (it was in 2015 or thereabouts).  Yet ATF approved all these trusts.

The other thing is that laws change, both State and Federal, sometimes very quickly.  Trusts sometimes have to be amended to keep up with such changes.

I'm not trying to scare the bejeezus out of anyone here, but have seen enough defective trusts (and other estate planning documents for that matter) that I'm leery of any mass produced NFA trust that's supposed to be legal and compliant in all fifty states.

Edited January 7 by Uncle Zeek

[taylorwso]

3 hours ago, Uncle Zeek said:

Have a colleague with an active case in which the firearm owner died without leaving proper trust instructions to his successor, and the NFA firearm will most likely have to be surrendered to ATF for destruction.  Wouldn't be a big deal if this were an SBR or suppressor, but I'm reluctant to have a transferable MG destroyed if it can be avoided.  Can't say more on that until the case is done.

 

thats horeshit, and mgs dont just get destroyed because of no trust.

executor gets them transfer on a form 5, trust or not

[Uncle Zeek]

1 hour ago, taylorwso said:

thats horeshit, and mgs dont just get destroyed because of no trust.

executor gets them transfer on a form 5, trust or not

Forgive me, I didn't intend to start an argument.  As I said, I can't speak to other state laws - maybe your state laws allow the executor of a decedent's estate to also dispose of property belonging to a separate irrevocable trust.  

[taylorwso]

if its tied up in a trust, because they used a shit trust, then that's on them, with the limited info you posted, it was unclear

i just called you out because you pop into  thread and do a drive by with limited info that doesn't apply to the op, and just muddles everything up

 

2 hours ago, Uncle Zeek said:

Forgive me, I didn't intend to start an argument.  As I said, I can't speak to other state laws - maybe your state laws allow the executor of a decedent's estate to also dispose of property belonging to a separate irrevocable trust.  

Especially when you "cant say more" but post a bunch of convoluted bs that's only applies to state laws and nothing to do with the nfa at a fed level

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7 by taylorwso

[taylorwso]

7 hours ago, Uncle Zeek said:

I'm not trying to scare the bejeezus out of anyone here, but have seen enough defective trusts (and other estate planning documents for that matter) that I'm leery of any mass produced NFA trust that's supposed to be legal and compliant in all fifty states.

this i agree with, trust are stupid unless it was done/upkeep by a lawyer

 

 

 

[johnsonlmg41]

edited

Edited January 9 by johnsonlmg41

[Jwestak]

My trust was drafted by a lawyer/firm out of state that does sell them. Im not sure how popular they are. If it needs to be restated in the future that's fine. I went the trust route due to being able to put RPs on it in the future. And not worrying about if my wife had access to my items when I wasn't home etc. I also registered the trust with my state.