BDMERC

Less than ethical seller/ member list?

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Posted (edited)

Recently had an issue with a lost in shipping/ stolen machine gun I purchased from a Sturmgewehr Member.

Seller would only ship by USPS Priority so I insisted on providing prepaid FedEx Over Night shipping label, at my expense,  for shipment.

$10K machine gun was shipped in cheap worn out, "dog eared" single layer card board box and poorly packaged, with single strip of clear packing tape on either end.

Gun fell out of box and was lost/ stolen in shipping. Seller's only response is that my issue is with FedEx and that he bears no responsibility. I DISAGREE!

Any way to warn other Members who may end up in same situation would be helpful. After 30 plus years in the business, I've learned that the majority of my fellow dealers are honest and do the right thing. This is my first experience with a dealer who took the money, and essentially admitted he could give a flip about me getting the gun.

There needs to be some accountability for sellers on this site who DON'T play nice with others or "do the right thing"!

 

 

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Edited by BDMERC
Pictures of box added
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+1 to this.  It would be nice to have some reputation / user review feature here.  Plus it would help out people who are doing business honestly.  I didn't know who John Norrell was when I bought something from him earlier this year (whoops).

 

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My point exactly. Why is there not a forum where members can discuss their experiences, good or bad? Seems to me that bad actors take advantage of others where the platform relies only on the "honor system".

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I absolutely agree.

I like the idea of a Subguns style Recommended Dealers List, with a one exception. Said exception being that the s***bags don't make it to the RDL. 

In Liberty,

Kristopher

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Did you get insurance on the package since you provided the label?

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Posted (edited)

Hmm, I don’t ever recall saying 1 single thing about USPS shipping. The item was shipped on your label because we were $500 apart on price. You are a terrible liar. When you called me on the phone you told me you couldn’t even tell someone had been inside the box. Yet here you are saying the packing was terrible. Of course the suppressor was banging around inside the box, the MG was removed.

No I’m not going to send you $5000 while YOU fight FedEx For YOUR insurance claim, if you even insured the package. The ATF told me when we filed the lost report that they knew the package came into a sort facility at 16# and left at 8#. But surely it’s my fault.

Edited by LewmanArms
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But we said USPS only right? 

631B4627-FAE0-4A06-A2B3-05C4116E34D7.png

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Once Lewman dropped off the package his side of the deal is done.  I hope Fedex pays out your claim and it sucks that that gun is probably gone forever.  That’s just the roll of the dice. We all play this game. 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, SLW said:

Once Lewman dropped off the package his side of the deal is done.  I hope Fedex pays out your claim and it sucks that that gun is probably gone forever.  That’s just the roll of the dice. We all play this game. 

 

 

It will be interesting to see if ATF recovers the gun. I am wondering if the FedEx facility has video monitoring.

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The discussion boards are the correct place to discuss this.  Anyone here can see both sides of the story, if both sides participate, as they are doing here.

Since Sturm is a bulletin board where ads are posted, but any transactions are conducted outside of the site, a true feedback mechanism is not really feasible.  The discussion boards can be used to provide specific feedback in a factual manner.  No one should flame a seller in follow-up posts to their ads on this site.  

I would potentially be interested in a recommended dealer's list, but the truth is, I just don't have the time to manage such an effort currently.  Though I am open to ideas...

 

Here are some things I would suggest considering when making a high dollar firearm purchase.  These can all be agreed upon prior to shipment.  

  • Is the seller insured throughout the entire transaction to the customer - In other words, if there is a problem in shipment, does the seller own the issue?
  • If a customer asks a dealer to ship on the customer's account for preference of carrier, or cost, does the customer own the transaction when the package is handed off to the carrier by the dealer?
  • What type of box will be used for shipping?
  • How is the firearm packaged inside the box?
  • How is the box sealed?

These are things I would consider, among others, if a recommended dealer list were established.  It would be an extremely high bar that almost all dealers would not meet, in my opinion.  For that reason, it is good to know the answers to the questions above, among other questions, in case there is a problem.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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National Rifle Association
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
Ohio Gun Collectors Association
Thompson Collectors Association
Carbine Club
Garand Collectors Association
International Ammunition Association
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
Eagle Scout, and Member of NESA

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Posted (edited)

So you are not at fault for your packaging?!!!! Fact is that I've seen kid's toys sold on Ebay packaged better!

You admit as a direct quote "of course the suppressor was banging around in the box". Did it even occur to you that maybe the responsible thing to do would be to pack it where this would not be an issue? Did I need to send you packing materials and instructions on how to pack it as well????? 

Yes, the soon to be felon at FedEx taped the box up after the contents fell out, but didn't put the machine gun back in before doing so. He did a better taping job than you did originally. You reused a beat up single wall cardboard box to ship a $10K machine gun and didn't secure the contents from shifting around in the box. If you didn't want to do the deal at the agreed price you should have said so. Five extra minutes packing and a couple of dollars in bubble wrap could have prevented this whole issue. But you got your money, that's all that matters, right?

I am a liar? Really? 

Yes it was insured, but FedEx honoring a claim on a machine gun is a pipe dream!

 

 

Edited by BDMERC

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, SLW said:

Once Lewman dropped off the package his side of the deal is done.  I hope Fedex pays out your claim and it sucks that that gun is probably gone forever.  That’s just the roll of the dice. We all play this game. 

 

 

"Reasonable care" standard was not met with packaging. Even the Seller knows and admits this.

Edited by BDMERC
legal reasoning

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I don't plan to argue the point any further. I cannot believe that any reasonable person would have shipped an item of this value, in this manner, and expected any different outcome. I do recall "reasonable care" as being a requirement of a seller.

Thirty plus years in this biz and I have never seen such blatant negligence.

 

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If you are going to quote me don’t do it like the media. I said “of course the suppressor is banging around in the box, the packing material and machine gun was removed from the box.”

You are assuming it was packed poorly because that is how it arrived. That is not how it was packed. I told you how it was packed, but you stopped listening after I said “of course it’s banging around in the box...”. You even told me there was evidence of a rubber glove inside the box, which are not worn on our end during packing. 

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It is likely that the thief left fingerprints on the tape that he or she applied.

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I guess you want me to believe it was double boxed when you took it to FedEx,  in new cardboard boxes as well?

 

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On 8/17/2019 at 1:28 PM, BDMERC said:

So you are not at fault for your packaging?!!!! Fact is that I've seen kid's toys sold on Ebay packaged better!

You admit as a direct quote "of course the suppressor was banging around in the box". Did it even occur to you that maybe the responsible thing to do would be to pack it where this would not be an issue? Did I need to send you packing materials and instructions on how to pack it as well????? 

Yes, the soon to be felon at FedEx taped the box up after the contents fell out, but didn't put the machine gun back in before doing so. He did a better taping job than you did originally. You reused a beat up single wall cardboard box to ship a $10K machine gun and didn't secure the contents from shifting around in the box. If you didn't want to do the deal at the agreed price you should have said so. Five extra minutes packing and a couple of dollars in bubble wrap could have prevented this whole issue. But you got your money, that's all that matters, right?

I am a liar? Really? 

Yes it was insured, but FedEx honoring a claim on a machine gun is a pipe dream!

 

 

No dog in this fight but I’ve bought stuff from lewman before and everything was packed very well. My buddies dad got one of his MG42 7.62x39 kits and he commented on how over packed it was. I mean maybe he just tossed it in a old used box as you claim, but the four or five items I got from him weren’t. 

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Happy for you dude!

Look at the pics of the shipping box I posted and tell me I am exaggerating. All the "wear and tear" would have happened over night, if you believe old Lew!

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BTW - Everyone loses on this. ATF now has the gun, so one less m.g. on the registery!

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The moral of the story is to always ship via USPS.  If they don't like the packing, they won't ship it.

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1 hour ago, pstidan said:

The moral of the story is to always ship via USPS.  If they don't like the packing, they won't ship it.

Registered mail only.

 

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1 hour ago, BDMERC said:

BTW - Everyone loses on this. ATF now has the gun, so one less m.g. on the registery!

Whats stopping you from getting the gun back from ATF? Just wondering. Legally it is yours.

 

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5 hours ago, BDMERC said:

BTW - Everyone loses on this. ATF now has the gun, so one less m.g. on the registery!

Last I checked lost/stolen guns are always returned to the owner.

So they found the gun?

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1 hour ago, eMGunslinger said:

Last I checked lost/stolen guns are always returned to the owner.

So they found the gun?

Where have you been checking??? Always returned??? Legally mine????

I had my first M60 (receiver) confiscated by ATF in 1989 that turned out to be fully transferable. Transfer was approved to me but was in possession of the transferor. Never got it. Would you please check on it for me?

Maybe I should get a lawyer to go after them rascals!

 

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Interesting in how things play out. I had an interesting experience where i bought a machine gun from an individual who sells here and on other sites,

I wont name him because i wont be mudslinging. 

The machine gun would only run one round and jam. Seller said it must be the ammo, Upon close examination, it was missing the extractor, 

It couldnt pull the rounds out!!!

Seller accused me of trying to scam extra parts from him even though i bought a 7,000 post sample and now i am trying to scam him out of an extractor,

He also admitted he had plenty of parts and bolts and was going to send me zippy!!!.

The solution i was offered was ship the gun back and he will install and headspace a 250 dollar bolt and ship it back to me . This is after he yelled and screamed at me 

and called me every name in the book. I truly believe karma will get the people who do NOT treat others the way they want to be treated.

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Wow!

I remember something like that on GunBroker. Did you leave negative feedback?

Did you get your gun fixed?

I bet you never did business with that scumbag again!

It wasn't Lewman was it?

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1 hour ago, BDMERC said:

Where have you been checking??? Always returned??? Legally mine????

I had my first M60 (receiver) confiscated by ATF in 1989 that turned out to be fully transferable. Transfer was approved to me but was in possession of the transferor. Never got it. Would you please check on it for me?

Maybe I should get a lawyer to go after them rascals!

 

You don't need a lawyer.  The agent in charge likely will be contacting you soon, as will the lost/stolen tracing people to update the case.   It takes some time (in my case days) and since you are the registered owner it should be returned to you without any issues.    Course that's the good news.  The bad news is atf uses fedex and you should see the packing job they do!  When my gun was stolen at the PO, atf recovered it, contacted me, and shipped it back.  It took them a good 3 weeks to get it out.   Shipped in a box with no packing, one piece of tape on the ends.  When I found it on my porch, the end was open with the barrel visible and the only thing holding it in the box was that the charging handle had poked through the side. 

I'm quite certain you'll get the gun.

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8 hours ago, pstidan said:

The moral of the story is to always ship via USPS.  If they don't like the packing, they won't ship it.

Agreed that Registered Mail is the safest bet. They definitely wouldn't have accepted the package the way it was packed!

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WOW, so many issues I don't know where to start, but as usual wont be able to ignore it so HERE IT COMES !  first, being a computer illiterate , I cant figure out how to use the quote feature so you must endure my feeble attempts at quoting the exact problem in my own words. shipping= the USPS offices within 100 miles of me will not accept ANY firearms from a NON-DEALER. because I refuse to abide by all the demands, I refuse to use UPS on my end the seller having complete responsibility with origin packing can choose who he wants, but is obliged to see its packed to arrive intact in ALL cases. FOR ME, ITS ONLY FED-X.  I have never understood the issue folks have with FED-X ? we have our own account and if a problem occurs they handle it as should be. I bought more than 400 guns for the collection since 2016 . ALL came via FED-X. YES some damage occurred , all due to packing and  was PROMPTLY HANDLED with BOTH ends satisfied. also we bought several smaller lots of ammo under 3k rnds. when we pay shipping, we always request FED-X but get a quote from UPS. IN EVERY CASE , FED-X was less. from SIMPSON LIMITED and FLORIDA as much as HALF the COST LANDED! using FED-X I sold and shipped a MINT 100% matching MG-08 it was properly packed in 2 layers of DOUBLED CARDBOARD and fully insured. looked like it had been hit with a fork and half the end cap was broken off. when the smoke cleared in about 45 days, they paid the FULL amount AND gave us the complete gun back . another claim was for a ROCK ISLAND AUCTION packed FULL  4'x 4' x 6' wooden "gaylord" with well over $40k in high grade collector parts inside. it got broken open and only GOD knew what was missing. the battle was 4 sided. R. I.- the insurance company, FED-X and US. the first 2 wanted to pay only the "hammer cost". FED-X agreed they would accept "WHAT EVER the OTHER 3 parties agreed to. WE INSISTED because when the HAMMER FALLS WE OWN IT,ON ONLY ACTUAL VALUE. it took a hard hit with our attorney but using the LOT PICS , we won ACTUAL VALUE and received THE FULL INSURED AMOUNT, AND the remaining goods. SO NEEDLESS TO SAY, WE WILL ALWAYS INSIST ON FED-X OR PASS ON THE BUY if its a HIGH VALUE ITEM. next issue, ATF returning lost/stolen MG's. I have never seen them fail to return one too the owner of record. years ago we were "hit" by local gang members in DALLAS and lost 4 subguns. the guilty ass wipes were quickly caught and 3 were recovered. we got them back when the case was settled and were quite surprised a few years later to get back what was a choice C+R sten much worse for the wear. no official details were revealed , but an agent did relate it was found doing a compliance check at a small local NON SOT shop. it was logged in for a "repair". that brings use to the troubles TOM has opened up when he created this thread. USING ONLY THE INFO PROVIDED HERE AND WHAT I KNOW OF THE PARTIES INVOLVED= the pics PLAINLY SHOW , what I would not even qualify as GARBAGE was used to ship a $10k+ gun and can. packing inside   UNKOWN but using the outside as an example would suspect little if ANY effort was applied to insure safe arrival. if it came to me in that, it WOULD BE THE LAST TIME I EVEN LOOKED AT A POST FROM HIM ! I have NEVER completed a transaction with the outfit in question, BUT have made SEVERAL attempts in the past. when an answer was finally received by someone that knew anything about my interest, the short snappy answers only told me to STAY AWAY. I cant believe all transactions are handled like this because NO WAY WOULD THEY SURVIVE ! and some people had to have a GOOD EXPERIANCE. HOWEVER FOR MY MONEY using ONLY what is in evidence of this post, NO MATTER WHAT WAS SAID THE PICTURES AND ANSWERS ONLY TELL THE TRUTH AS THEY STAND AND THEY CLEARLY SHOW TOM WAS A VICTIM OF NEGLECT AND FOUL PLAY.  these events have made me SAD so NO CHEERS ARE IN ORDER  MIKE

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I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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I sold an MK 760 to Ruben last year. He send me a box and packing material along with a pre addressed label. Might be a good idea to do that in the future unless the seller is a proven dependable shipper. 

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22 minutes ago, Petroleum 1 said:

I sold an MK 760 to Ruben last year. He send me a box and packing material along with a pre addressed label. Might be a good idea to do that in the future unless the seller is a proven dependable shipper. 

Yes Ruben has his act together. He has been in the business long enough to know that you can't always depend on sellers to pack items with the same care that they would expect if it was being shipped to them. Sort of back to some people "getting the money and not giving a flip about you getting the gun".

Since this has become an issue, doing things the way Ruben does is advisable. When I sold Ruben a gun I got the same. He provided prepaid addressed box, packing materials and instructions, including taking it to USPS to ship Registered.

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1 hour ago, BDMERC said:

Yes Ruben has his act together. He has been in the business long enough to know that you can't always depend on sellers to pack items with the same care that they would expect if it was being shipped to them. Sort of back to some people "getting the money and not giving a flip about you getting the gun".

Since this has become an issue, doing things the way Ruben does is advisable. When I sold Ruben a gun I got the same. He provided prepaid addressed box, packing materials and instructions, including taking it to USPS to ship Registered.

In my opinion, Ruben is the standard by which all machine-gun dealers should be judged. 

The second part of your post brings up an interesting question. As a licensed dealer, you can ship a "concealable" firearm via USPS without issue by virtue of your license. How would that have worked had you not been a licensed dealer?

...

Something I learned a long time ago: If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters.

I hope that BDMERC promptly gets what is rightfully his without further issues. 

Cheers,

Kristopher

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Posted (edited)

This post has gotten off topic. It has gone from my complaint about a Dealer to praising Ruben's shipping procedure.

Both Mike Todd and the moderator have kept it on point, and Mike restated what I thought was obvious in the pictures I provided.

I only use FedEx Over Night service for shipping my firearms and have done so since 1990.

My opinion is that if you "invite" someone to steal something, they usually will take the invitation. Try leaving a $100 bill or a firearm on the seat of your car in a parking lot. You will probably come back to a smashed window and a theft.

Same goes with shipping. Place something of high value or sensitivity in a poorly packed, worn out box where it can easily fail. If or when it does, the handler sees the contents and makes a choice; in this case the wrong choice.

I have never packaged a machine gun the way Lewman did. He begrudgingly did the deal, and didn't like the fact that he could have made out better by "selling" me shipping. Why else would he bring up being "$500 apart on price"?

WE WEREN'T APART ON PRICE!!!!!!!! We had a deal at the price you accepted and that I paid. You didn't have to take the deal. Your packing job was an "invitation" to shipping damage or theft, and I do not accept that you didn't realize this when you packed it. For 30 years and over 1,000 transactions I have never had a damaged or stolen gun when shipped FedEx Over Night,  until now.

Edited by BDMERC

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@BDMERC ,

   Out of curiosity, did you get this gun back? Was it located? Issues resolved? In case it ever happens to any of the rest of us there is some good info on here.

Aaron - Mohnton, Pa

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A sellers review is nice but we should all have a moral compass to know we should treat others the way we want to be treated. This is unacceptable. 

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11 hours ago, Aaron in Mohnton Pa said:

@BDMERC ,

   Out of curiosity, did you get this gun back? Was it located? Issues resolved? In case it ever happens to any of the rest of us there is some good info on here.

Aaron - Mohnton, Pa

Still waiting to hear back from ATF............

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