something i just don't understand.

[D Edwards]

while a number of machine-gun prices have increased greatly the browning beltfeds are increasing slowly. what i really don't get is that the price of vickers is hardly moving upward at all. in addition to it's history, the vickers is as reliable as any machine gun and more reliable than many, modern or old. having had a number of beltfeds the vickers is my favorite by far. i would appreciate everyones opinion on this.

[MontanaRenegade86]

I'm not a belt fed owner and am by no means an expert, but I'll offer a few possibilities:

1.) It's a major pain in the ass to get some of these guns set up. In 2017, I got invited to a machinegun shoot. My dad and I helped the elderly host get set up on the day of the get together. It was a lot of work to move the belt fed guns to the firing line, get them ready, and then put them away after they were shot. Additionally, at least one of them didn't function worth a damn.

2.) The host in the example above lived on a farm in the middle of nowhere. I suspect most of us here live in towns or cities. It's a lot of work to get your average belt fed out to the range and get it set up. Additionally, these guns can take up quite a bit of room in our storage areas.

3.) Most belt fed weapons are expensive to shoot. I can get a thousand rounds of 9mm for $260 and enjoy my Sten, MK760, and Uzi all day. I don't think I could do that with a belt fed. 

4.) Some belt feds require specialized knowledge and maintenance. My simple brain can shoot a tube with a bolt and barrel without a hitch. I don't want to carry a bunch of shit to fix a broke down belt fed; that's assuming I knew what I was doing. 

All that being said, if I ran into the right deal on a 1919 (or a Vickers), I'd be all over it.

-KristopherH

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by MontanaRenegade86

[carversc]

There are belt feds… and there is everything else.  

Belt feds are like kids, you invest lots of time, money, energy and love. They only get to sing once in a while, but when they do, it’s a beautiful thing.  Subguns are more like pets, cute little yap dogs in baby carriages that you enjoy for a while if don’t have the opportunity or disposition to have kids.

You usually like your kids better than anyone else’s, or maybe you see somebody else’s attractive, clean cut, well-behaved kid and you kind of wish yours was like theirs.  But not really.  
 

Browning 1919s look cool, something about the perforated barrel support.  But 1917s look like the fat kid that might play ok but still gets picked last in dodge ball.  Vickers are like the foreign kid that you don’t quite understand at first but then kind of appreciate with time.  But still you think he would look better with a slim perforated barrel support.

I’m an M2 parent BTW.

[johnsonlmg41]

Well,

the vickers is a knockoff.  There are LOTS of them around and they have always been relatively cheap.  Now they have an ammo problem, since 54r nor 303 is cheap.  I've got a lot of beltfeds and the German guns always rule.  From the Maxim to the HK21E, they all represent some serious engineering for their time.

As to the Brownings, again plentiful, not sexy, not that great of a gun engineering wise, but parts are everywhere and dirt cheap.  If there were no semi versions maybe they would bring more money? I probably have every Browning design gun including the Rem. model 8 and Chauchat long recoil designs and I find those two more interesting than the 1919 family. 

Who needs a vickers when you have MG08's? 

My top two beltfeds are an MG34 and MG42, all the rest fall far back in terms of desirability.  The Argentine Maxim is the pinnacle of show guns, but I have no desire to shoot it.  Water cooled guns are a PITA and for now I don't have the time to dick with more plumbing projects.  Just replaced a leaky hose bibb on the way home tonight.  Two leaky valves in front of that and a slow leak at the valve stem......this is exactly like owning a Vickers.  I left suggesting a bucket for the valve stem as it will self seal in a couple days.

[Ryo]

Though I like the Vickers, I definitely passed on them due to size, maintenance, storage, and mostly setup time. Kind of mimicking what others said.

[jbntex]

I have multiple belt feds as well including a 1919A4.

I have always sort of considered a Vickers to add one "watercooled" belt fed to my collection but as others have mentioned beltfeds are much more of a commitment to shoot in terms of size/weight to pack and travel with, more time to set up/tear down, etc.    Its already a pretty rare event to shoot any of my existing beltfed guns, I don't know how much I would shoot an even bigger/heavier/more complex water cooled 30 cal belt fed when I have a 1919, M60, and 21E already that I am lucky to shoot once a year.

Ultimately the thing that kills the Vickers for me is the real estate in one of my safes to store it and it would be another net new caliber for me to  stock in volume that only that gun would shoot.  If I was to go with another really big/heavy belt fed I would probably just step up to a M2HB for a completely different shooting experience vs. a watercooled 30 cal.

If I was to do another 30 cal beltfed I would go an MG34 or 42 and convert it to shoot 7.62x51 so it could share ammo with my other existing beltfeds.

[an1913t]

First and foremost, beltfeds are expensive to shoot. The MG34 and MG42s are cool pieces of engineering, historically interesting to more people, and a whole lot easier to bring to the range than any watercooled gun. Plus, a lot of younger folks still think and read about WWII and remember grandparents who talked about WWII. WWI, not so much. All of these things factor into demand, which drives prices. 

[Mr.Maim]

Ammo pricing and lack of knowledge are what keep the prices of the Vickers stagnant. They can be easily modified to shoot 54R, 8mm Mauser, and 308, along with their native caliber of 303brit.

It's a prettier gun than the Browning. It is a better and simpler gun than the Maxim. The Vickers was in active service from 1912 through 1970.

For me, the only negative is the tripod. It's unfortunate that the British didn't make a better T&E mechanism.

 

Use this time (while they're undervalued) to build your parts stash.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Mr.Maim

[Chef]

Something I would add in addition to what everyone else has already said is that the belt feds you mention are part of the "old generation".
They were popular for a lot of the people who grew up being surrounded by the WW2 guns, either in their military service or on TV and in the movies.
But these guys are all aging out.
The new generation of NFA collectors are more interested in the stuff they had exposure to. Like the M60 or the M2 Browning. And you see the prices of these have increased astronomically in comparison to Vickers and 1919's.
Not that many people are interested in the old, tripod only belt feds anymore. (with the exception of the M2, probably because it's still in service).

[Grasshopper]

Hi All,

Parts. 

Vickers parts kits were available and affordable 20 or so years ago.  They have all dried up (like many SMG parts) and there aren't as many belt-fed guns as SMG making reproduction parts fabrication even more of a niche market.

With all that said I'll likely drag out an 08/15 next weekend to enjoy a 100+ year old MG.

Enjoy,

Grasshopper

[OUTDOORDAVE]

I think there are a few factors which keep the Vickers parts kits lower than what we think they should be. 

  First and probably most importantly is the fact that most people who want a beltfed prefer something from the USA and not foreign.  Something "we" used in the military.  The 1919s will always be popular and people will pay a bit more to get them.  Same with the 60s and ma Deuces.  That leads directly into familiarity - most people just aren't familiar with Vickers.  

  Second is most people see the Vickers as being only 303 but as mentioned they were built in numerous other calibers including 7.62x51 and 30-06 so caliber conversions can be done.  Their lack of knowledge and simple caliber conversions keep them away from the platform.  

  Unfortunately parts have been drying up for the Vickers (as has been stated here) and cost to build a kit from parts has become too much for folks to afford.  I love the Vickers and history behind them.  Yes - they can be a bit more difficult to set up than a 30 cal Browning but it makes running them that much more pleasing when they sing.  

 

  I tell people that to compare a Vickers to a Browning is like comparing a digital watch to a Swiss watch - the digital watch will always run with no worries and is solid but the Swiss watch is beautiful to see in action and can be more satisfying to people with a mechanical background.

[Uncle Zeek]

Speaking as a new entry into the MG world, one of my big considerations is parts availability.  I don't want to spend five figures on a gun that I might not be able to shoot because I can't find parts.   So what I'm mainly looking at are the Ingram/Cobray series guns, and M16/AR15 variants.  I could lay hands on modern belt fed uppers for the M16 type guns, so what I'd be willing to pay for something like a Vickers or Browning is less.

 

Ask me in a couple years after I've put a few thousand rounds through my new-to-me M10 and I might give a different answer. 

 

 

 

[hkg3k]

On 4/21/2023 at 11:47 PM, Mr.Maim said:

Ammo pricing and lack of knowledge are what keep the prices of the Vickers stagnant. They can be easily modified to shoot 54R, 8mm Mauser, and 308, along with their native caliber of 303brit.

It's a prettier gun than the Browning. It is a better and simpler gun than the Maxim. The Vickers was in active service from 1912 through 1970.

For me, the only negative is the tripod. It's unfortunate that the British didn't make a better T&E mechanism.

 

Use this time (while they're undervalued) to build your parts stash.

Agreed Mr Maim.

What the Vickers most certainly isn't, is a knockoff.  Most folk who understand the term, know a "knockoff" to be a cheap copy...which the Vickers definitely isn't.  The Vickers was an evolution and improvement over the Maxim design.  Good enough to remain in service for over 50 years with the British military.

In comparison to other water cooled (WC) belt-feds, it's at the top in my opinion.  It was fielded in .303, 8mm and .308 (others?)...it also readily converts to 54r.  I don't believe any other WC belt-fed offers the same caliber versatility.  Though parts are nowhere near as cheap and plentiful as they once were, availability / cost is still better for the Vickers than the others.  The Vickers is simply lighter, adapts to more calibers, tripods, and is just more elegant in my opinion.

I would argue "who needs an MG08 when you can have a Vickers!"  

In comparison to other belt-feds, the lagging WC belt-fed market is more than just cost of ammo.  With the exception of the few 5.56 belt-feds, all of them consume expensive ammo.  Parts availability and cost for air-cooled LMGs has taken off as well.  I think it's the additional complexity of the water cooled feature, less hardware to tote around, perceived simplicity and the fact that air-cooled quick-change barrel LMG platforms are more modern and perceived by a younger buying market that way.  100 yr old WC guns are simply "complex ancient relics" to much of the buying market, which continues to get younger.

I sold off my MG08, 1910 and MG34.  Not because any of them were bad...though the MG34 was finicky and the Maxims were another level of big / heavy that I was ready to move on from.