Interstate transfer of machine gun from individual to a Class 3 dealer question

[deputydawg223]

Greetings!

I am attempting to sell a machine gun to a fellow enthusiast in an adjoining state. I have done this several times in the past and both times I have been able to transfer the machine gun directly from myself to the Class 3 dealer in the buyers state, who is then able to transfer to the buyer. 

My current transaction has hit a small snag in that the buyers dealer believes that he can only receive a machine gun from another Class 3 dealer in my state. He is amendable to being corrected but I cannot find anything in the CFR's that allows this. Can anyone direct me to either the CFR that addresses this or some other documentation from BATFE that I can use to convince him. 

I would really like to avoid making this a 3 transfer process if at all possible and welcome any assistance you can render. I know that Ruben Mendiola and Gunspot transfer items in from individuals in other states all the time.

Thanks in advance for any help that can be rendered. 

[marks]

Transferring from out of state individual to an SOT in another state on a tax paid form 4 is the correct way to do it. I just did it. Then your in state SOT transfer's out to you, the individual, on a form 4. That's how it's been done for years. It's a 2 step transfer, not 3. With all due respect to your SOT, you probably need to find another one if he won't help you work through this. I know there are some new mailing restrictions regarding guns and various contract carriers but at the federal level (atf) there are no new CFR's that get in the way of the 2 step transfer process that I am aware of.

[taylorwso]

your dealer is a idiot

show him this thread.  THE CFR is restrictive in nature, it tells you what NOT to do vs what to do (like most gov't regulations)

I dont think there is anything that says they "can", but it does say a non licensee cannot ship guns to other people out of state, it must go through a ffl.  Thats what he does

[deputydawg223]

Thanks for the responses.

The dealer is the buyers dealer, not mine and he is misinformed but willing to be educated. I received a call back from my local ATF agent late yesterday afternoon who confirmed my position and the dealer listened and is now willing to proceed. I think what convinced him was my telling him that if it couldn't be done then the NFA branch would not OK the transfer. Anyway, I have him onboard and ready to go. 

I do have one more question regarding the efile transfer process. My prior two transfers were paper form 4's and the receiving dealer collected all my information and filled in the form in order to minimize any chance of error and then mailed in the paperwork. I have not used efile before, but do I need to file the transfer on this or does he?

Thanks in advance for any input.

Edited October 1, 2022 by deputydawg223
left out some information

[jbntex]

Unfortunately, you can't do an eFile F4 from an individual to a dealer.   

eFile Form 4 transfers only works the other way (Dealer to Individual).  In this case the transferor (i.e. you as an individual) can't submit the eForm 4, as your unlicensed individual eForms portal won't have a eForm 4 as an option for you to submit, nor will the gun be in "your inventory" (as you really don't have an eForm inventory) to eForm transfer.

You will have to do a paper Form 4 that you fill out with yourself as the transferor and the dealer as the transferee.  Since it is going to an FFL/SOT you don't have to fill out the 2nd or 3rd page of the Form 4 with all of the certification questions, pictures, CLEO notification, etc. as the transferee is a FFL/SOT.

Just fill out the paper Form 4's 1st page with your information, the dealers information (you will need his FFL # and EIN), and all of the specifics about the gun (model, serial, length, etc.) and mail it in with a check for $200.

Then be prepared to wait about 6 months for the paper Form 4 to be approved and returned to you before you can physically transfer the gun to the dealer.

Also if this is a "concealable" machinegun (barrel less than 16" or OAL less than 26") you as an individual have no way to legally or not violate the carriers terms of service ship a machinegun to the dealer.  USPS its illegal for you to ship a concealable firearm and both UPS and Fedex no longer accept firearm shipments from unlicensed individuals.  (you can try and sneak it by UPS or Fedex but any insurance will be null/void and if they catch the firearm in transit they can refuse to deliver it)

If its a concealable machinegun you are going to need to see if you can make it non-concealable (longer barrel and/or stock if possible) so you can legally ship it USPS, try and find a local dealer to help you legally ship it, or submit a separate 5320.20 to cover the next 365 days to the transferee dealers State and then personally fly or drive the machinegun to the dealer once the transfer is approved.

[United Surplus Arms]

my last several Form 4 individual to dealer transfers were approved in 3 months.  Hopefully yours is approved that quickly.

Edited October 2, 2022 by shiklg

[duza9999]

2 hours ago, shiklg said:

my last several Form 4 individual to dealer transfers were approved in 3 months.  Hopefully yours is approved that quickly.

May I ask when your last set of form 4’s to your license was? I just submitted one for a sten back in august and was told to expect 9-12 months as while background check exempt, the majority of it is waiting in line until your form hits an examiner’s desk.

 

[United Surplus Arms]

9 hours ago, duza9999 said:

May I ask when your last set of form 4’s to your license was? I just submitted one for a sten back in august and was told to expect 9-12 months as while background check exempt, the majority of it is waiting in line until your form hits an examiner’s desk.

 

one was about 8 months ago and the other 2 were submitted 4 months ago and approved last month.

[jbntex]

I have an individual to dealer Form 4 pending right now and it is right at 6 months since submitted back in early April.

[Ryo]

Individual to FFL w/ SOT you only need to fill out the first page of the Form 4. It takes a few months to get approval,but it is way faster than FFL to individual. 

[MontanaRenegade86]

Form 4 Individual to SOT. Signed and sent 03/07/22, approved 07/19/22.

Make sure there are ZERO errors on the Form. 

 

[Youlen Enterprises Inc.]

21 hours ago, duza9999 said:

May I ask when your last set of form 4’s to your license was? I just submitted one for a sten back in august and was told to expect 9-12 months as while background check exempt, the majority of it is waiting in line until your form hits an examiner’s desk.

 

I just got back three today at 65 days from the date the check was cashed.

[duza9999]

Just had my sten approved, 54 days since pending