teakle Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 Has anyone experienced longer transfer wait time on post samples no letter guns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QualifiedWeapon Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 (edited) Last one we did was about 10 calendar days. Which was submitted on late afternoon 3/5/24 Edited March 26 by QualifiedWeapon added some relevant info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teakle Posted March 26 Author Report Share Posted March 26 mine are 30days out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifthmdec Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 5 hours ago, teakle said: mine are 30days out? You’re not the only one. Several guys out there are experiencing 30 day or more. These are no law letter OOB transfers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifthmdec Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 Late last year, in our experience , eForm 3 transfers were at least 14 days for transferable MGs, back in Nov-December. We have an SBR transfer pending at one week. We’ll see how that goes. Could be any number of factors. Your guess is as good as anyone else’s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 I’ve had several Form 3’s on transferable items taking 2 1/2-3 weeks lately so who knows. When eform 4’s are faster than eform 3’s dealer to dealer..:something is off lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firelizzard Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 Hell, even form 2's are taking a long time. Another dealer and I are both going on a week now for the ones we both submitted. It used to be 24 -48 hours at most! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 I had a form 2 on an SBR come back in less than 24 hours but other stuff I’ve been waiting a week now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron in Mohnton Pa Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 It is unknown if this has any impact on transfer times, but I know they are applying more scrutiny, or, looking closer at, no letter transfers.... I know of one FFL right now that is being audited.... This specific FFL dropped his FFL, sold his samples as no letter guns, and then rebranded and moved to a completely different facility and got a new FFL.... The audit he is undergoing is the most comprehensive he has ever had. 3 Agents there as opposed to 1... They specifically told him that his post samples should not have been sold as no letter guns and should have followed him to his new FFL since he did not "go out of business".... Again, unsure why transfer times would be taking longer, but I know for a fact they are looking closer at no letter transfers etc. Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 Now that is an interesting one for sure. They told me that since I was going from a sole proprietorship to an LLC that it wouldn't be an issue to sell off the post samples as no law letter given the type of business model it was. I swear this whole post sample thing is making my head hurt anymore. I'll be so glad when the ones I have are gone and its over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifthmdec Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 It has been the understanding, that the OOB letter that accompanies each no law letter transfer can be used for those FFLs who are just wanting to drop their SOTs and are not planning on going out of business. Many of the no law letter transfers fall under this category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron in Mohnton Pa Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 I think the problem you run into is that guidance varies from agent to agent / office to office.... It shouldn't, but I believe rules are interpreted differently depending on who you are dealing with.... Just like there was a time when Law Letters were not so closely scrutinized. Now they are.... ALL of these things should be clearly laid out and in the form of written guidance from the ATF... But all of us FFLs know that the waters are murkey in many areas. Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 The other problem thats going to show its ugly head is ATF cracking down on the manufacture of post samples that will NEVER be used as military or LEO guns-STEN, Thompson, MP40, and pretty much all belt fed guns (on the LEO side) Guys have been using the post sample umbrella for rental ranges and personal play toys for so long that at some point....its all going to go away. Look at the close examinations of the law letter stuff-its happening now, ATF is enforcing the rules for once and verifying that something is for an actual demo and not for a buddy buddy play toy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron in Mohnton Pa Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 @Got Uzi Yes I agree... I read some of the indictments for FFLs who got law letter belt guns and then rented them out... Thats where they are hitting them for "conspiracy to defraud the government" .. Submitting law letter to the ATF that the gun is for demo to an agency and then using them to rent to the general public for profit..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT Fish Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 54 minutes ago, Got Uzi said: The other problem thats going to show its ugly head is ATF cracking down on the manufacture of post samples that will NEVER be used as military or LEO guns-STEN, Thompson, MP40, and pretty much all belt fed guns (on the LEO side) Guys have been using the post sample umbrella for rental ranges and personal play toys for so long that at some point....its all going to go away. Look at the close examinations of the law letter stuff-its happening now, ATF is enforcing the rules for once and verifying that something is for an actual demo and not for a buddy buddy play toy. While I understand your point. I will say that some SOTs do use their "historic" post samples for agency demos. There are quite a few that do foreign/non-standard weapons familiarization courses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 Read the ATF handbook on NFA regs 7.6.2 they state that training and familiarization is not a reason for a post sample. My biggest fear is that people will keep poking the bear and then the bear is gonna eat us all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifthmdec Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 53 minutes ago, Got Uzi said: Read the ATF handbook on NFA regs 7.6.2 they state that training and familiarization is not a reason for a post sample. My biggest fear is that people will keep poking the bear and then the bear is gonna eat us all. If a Class 2, either has manufactured a replica or has a historic MG as listed in the SGT Fish post. There are no regulations that should preclude such classes. It’s up to the department if they would like such a class. There are a few manufacturers that offer such classes to LE and Military personnel. Especially, those who want their armorer certification for that weapon system. Unfortunately, there are always those who push the envelope, and today we feel the repercussions of such behavior in the industry. The ATF is very specific in the no law letter transfer arena. Make it simple, either go out of business or drop your SOT. Because of the abusers, expect longer transfer times… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifthmdec Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 18 hours ago, Firelizzard said: Hell, even form 2's are taking a long time. Another dealer and I are both going on a week now for the ones we both submitted. It used to be 24 -48 hours at most! Just a note, if you have not seen the box in the eForm 2. If the NFA weapon has not been manufactured before by the C2 that is submitting the F2. There is an added description box. I find that helps the turn around process, especially for MGs. If one gets the pending research beforehand, then that increases the wait time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT Fish Posted March 28 Report Share Posted March 28 On 3/27/2024 at 1:13 PM, Got Uzi said: Read the ATF handbook on NFA regs 7.6.2 they state that training and familiarization is not a reason for a post sample. My biggest fear is that people will keep poking the bear and then the bear is gonna eat us all. I understand that, post samples are made to be sold to agencies. It's funny because post samples can't be made for prototyping either, but every manufacturer does so for that reason. But some agencies buy these weapons for that reason as well. There are many agencies that have glock switches so they can teach new guys what they look like and do. I even had a guy contact me wanting to pay for some glock switches to be donated to his local PD for that reason. While a glock switch isn't a thompson, the same can apply. It's also not the ATFs authority to regulate my business plan. Though they still like to create the power to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifthmdec Posted March 28 Report Share Posted March 28 Hey SGT Fish, My response was not directed at you or anyone in particular. I posted the quote from Got Uzi and just wanted to add to his post, and your previous post, as to include other references to the statute quoted above. Making note of the increased approval time for OOB no law letter transfers and other forms of misconduct. If one has been in the business for 20 years or more are probably aware of a few high profile cases in which C2 manufacturers had gone into a so called gray area in their business model. That did in fact catch the attention of the ATF. They had taken several, a few hundred of the M11’s, as I understood, then cut out a small section of the receiver that included the serial numbers, and welded them in a inconspicuous place on the receiver. Then sold newly manufactured machine guns with transferable M11 serial numbers. It took someone in the NFA to notice the discrepancy. Those who purchased, these so called transformed weapons, eventually had them confiscated. The perpetrators were convicted for their actions. FFL/SOTs abusing the LE demo letter process, and most recently mentioned in the threads. One FFL/SOT abusing the OOB letter process. This kind of behavior catches the ire of the ATF. So, now they scrutinize the LE demo letter process and the OOB post sample transfer process. This leads to longer approval times, etc. i agree in that one’s business plan is nobody’s business. But some choose to push the envelope until they’re caught. This effects all of us in the business… 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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