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Lost Stamp


RevolverJockey
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Long time listener, first time caller, asking for a friend. Theoretically, if someone bought an MG and the Form 4 from an individual, waited a year, then a month after the form was approved and mailed it never arrived, what should someone do? One call to the NFA says that after 45 days, only the seller can request a duplicate copy and that request can only made via snail mail. A second call to the NFA says the transferee (not the seller) should type up, sign, scan and email the NFA the requested and it will be mailed directly to them. In either case, I was told, I mean this person was told that the request would immediately void the form previously mailed - that is no say the applicant copy is no longer an approved form even if it resurfaces. At this point the transferee is the registered owner yet not the possessor. Is there some point where the new registered owner is giving constructive possession to an unregistered person? Has anyone experienced this before and can offer some insight on how they resolved it? Thanks in advance. 

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The seller (transferor) should request a certified copy of the F4, when it arrives, he can transfer the item to you (transferee )and give you the certified copy of the F4.  It is not uncommon for the original form to resurface at a later date - it is still valid - if so, the seller should just forward it to you.  Hope that helps.

 

Matt

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1 hour ago, RevolverJockey said:

. Is there some point where the new registered owner is giving constructive possession to an unregistered person? Has anyone experienced this before and can offer some insight on how they resolved it? Thanks in advance. 

As matt said request a copy. I know your nervous but stop with the constructive possession BS. There is no such thing and until a copy of the form 4 is possessed, there is nothing illegal about the seller keeping it. 

 

I would just write a letter, sign with pen and scan and email to the nfa email address.

Edited by taylorwso
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19 minutes ago, taylorwso said:

As matt said request a copy. I know your nervous but stop with the constructive possession BS. There is no such thing and until a copy of the form 4 is possessed, there is nothing illegal about the seller keeping it. 

 

I would just write a letter, sign with pen and scan and email to the nfa email address.

That’s a bit snappy don’t you think? It’s a legitimate question. Without there being a 4473 showing when a transfer of possession occurred, there has to come a point where there is a question who owned it when. If say another month passes and still no stamp, the buyer is financially liable for the loss if it gets lost, stolen and/or winds up in a legal entanglement. The NFA acknowledges the approved application and new registration, if everyone is aware of that, why would you need to physically possess the stamp? Is it illegal to have an legally registered item without the stamp in hand? These things have to have happened. I myself received a Form 1 approval where the transferee signature name was incorrect due to a glitch and the NFA told me to request it be voided and resubmit and for a period of 2 weeks I had a short barreled rifle with no valid approval. I am just trying to fully understand my situation and I have never really heard anyone talk about what to do in this situation. 

Edited by RevolverJockey
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2 minutes ago, RevolverJockey said:

That’s a bit snappy don’t you think? It’s a legitimate question. Without there being a 4473 showing when a transfer of possession occurred, there has to come a point where there is a question who owned it when. If say another month passes and still no stamp, the buyer is financially liable for the loss of it gets lost, stolen and/or winds up in a legal entanglement. The NFA acknowledges the approved application and new registration, if everyone is aware of that, why would you need to physically possess the stamp? Is it illegal to have an legally registered item without the stamp in hand? These things have to have happened. I myself received a Form 1 approval where the transferee signature name was incorrect due to a glitch and the NFA told me to request it be voided and resubmit and for a period of 2 weeks I had a short barreled rifle with no valid approval. I am just trying to fully understand my situation. 

Its never snappy when someone uses "constructive" possession.  Your emotions are getting too you.

You don't need a stamp to take possession or have a NFA item, as long as it was approved, BUT if I was a seller there is no way in hell I would let it go w/o one. SOTs can still due business if they don't have their new SOT, even though that's a tax stamp for us. ATF even says as much. 

Tax stamps do not denote possession. Possession is determined by who has it. So if its stolen while the seller has it, it's on him, NOT the buyer until you actually have it. Same as mil dudes buying stuff when they are overseas and not picking it up for months after the form 4 was approved.

I know you might be stressing, but I had my first MG confiscated by the ATF when my dealer did some stupid shit. That took over a year, when at the time transfers took weeks (right after the atf moved to WV). The atf were total dicks and were always "on a investigation" and I could not pick it up.

 

write the letter and email it in.

 

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While I appreciate what you are saying and believe you.. what a broken system. This was paid for over a year ago. The NFA approved it over a month ago. No one has any incentive to compete this transaction except the buyer. If the stamp doesn’t make the buyer the owner, and paying for it doesn’t make the buyer the owner, why ever even complete a transfer if you are a seller? Not withstanding the fact that when things go really, really well, you can still make a human being faster than an approved Form 4, there was literally a year to get ready to not F up mailing it. If I was getting a bill from the ATF it would have showed up with a bell on. 
 

Obviously the solution is more waiting but it is a bit of schrodinger's cat situation where the approved form exists or doesn’t exist and I am permitted to have it or the seller is permitted to keep it so they all must be true until the form is proven to be real, or not real which cannot be determined. 

I think 5 or 6 things I have pending clear, I am don’t with this NFA game. 

Edited by RevolverJockey
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Criminal law violation (generally) requires intent.  Whichever way you decide to go, get the NFA division to email you what they told you over the phone.  If they won't do that, get their name and make a note of their name and the time. Then follow that direction.  I am not a lawyer but my brother is (former prosecutor) - that is his advice.

Edited by shiklg
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For what it is worth I have asked for certified copies of "lost in the mail" Form 4s as the buyer, received the certified copy,  and then taken the certified copy to the seller to complete the transaction.  I have never had an issue with the seller then completing the transfer as we always discussed that I would request the copy upfront, but if they don't believe the transfer was approved they can always call the NFA branch and confirm before handing the gun over.

According to the BATFE records, once the transfer is approved you are the current owner/registrant of record, its honestly none of their business why you are asking for a certified copy of YOUR paperwork other than the original copy was lost.

Write them a hard copy letter, give them the specifics of the request....

- I JBNTEX am the lawful registrant of machinegun serial # ABC123, Model XYZ789, etc.
- My address of record is 1234 Street, Anytown, USA
- The paperwork for this firearm has been lost and I as the current owner of the firearm and NFRTR registrant of record am asking for a certified copy of the Form 4 form records.

Please mail a certified copy of the approved Form 4 to my address of record.

Thank you

The ATF doesn't know if you received the forms two months ago and the dog ate them today, you misplaced them in your filing cabinet last week, or they were lost in the mail, etc. and there is no reason to disclose the specifics.

Don't over complicate it and just request a certified copy. (or have the seller do it but they will probably have to explain why they are asking for a copy of paperwork for a firearms that no longer registered under their name)

Edited by jbntex
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Letter sent and received this reply,

Good morning,
   Your Certified Copy request has been received and will begin to be processed. While processing is usually faster, please keep in mind, it can take up to 45 days or more to complete this request. If we can be of further assistance, please let us know.

Thank you,
Annika

*Note: The NFA does not send out additional Stamps. They send an embossed certified copy as replacement.”

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