Law Enforcement Sample (Pre-86)

[Bwanalewis]

Sorry if this is a rookie question...  What is the status of a Law Enforcement Sample (last time of transfer was 1983.)  Does it move to a Pre Dealer Sample post 1986?  We tried to get an answer from NFA.  Will wait to see if we get feedback from NFA, just wanted to know if anyone has an answer.

Thanks,

Chad

[Got Uzi]

It depends on what it is. Some LEO guns were/are transferable so you need to look at the original paperwork. What is the item in question? If the gun was imported between 1968 and May of 1986 then it is and will be a pre sample. 

[Bwanalewis]

My apologies if I was not clear in my question.  I am wanting to purchase an Uzi that the last time it transferred was 1983.  It says on the paperwork Law Enforcement Sample.  i am an FFL/SOT (Dealer.). Do I need a law letter? Since this transferred last in 1983 there was not a designated title Pre/Post Samples.  I have not seen this question pop up, so just trying to get clarification.  We called NFA and they were unsure, so they escalated to another person.  I just wanted to see if anyone has an answer…

Side note I am buying a BAR that was last transferred in 1981 that has Sales Sample Not for Resale.  So, two MGs with two different Sample designates…
 

Thanks,

Chad

Edited December 1, 2023 by Bwanalewis

[United Surplus Arms]

It doesn’t matter when it transferred last. It matters when it was imported into the USA. If it was after 1968, as stated above, it is a pre-may dealer sample. LEO designation means nothing

[Thumpy]

2 hours ago, Bwanalewis said:

My apologies if I was not clear in my question.  I am wanting to purchase an Uzi that the last time it transferred was 1983.  It says on the paperwork Law Enforcement Sample.  i am an FFL/SOT (Dealer.). Do I need a law letter? Since this transferred last in 1983 there was not a designated title Pre/Post Samples.  I have not seen this question pop up, so just trying to get clarification.  We called NFA and they were unsure, so they escalated to another person.  I just wanted to see if anyone has an answer…

Side note I am buying a BAR that was last transferred in 1981 that has Sales Sample Not for Resale.  So, two MGs with two different Sample designates…
 

Thanks,

Chad

I don’t believe so. It was imported after 1968 so can’t be sold to civilians but registered before 1986… it’s a pre sample no Leo letter should be required.

[Thumpy]

Also what’s the form say as far as manufacture?

[Got Uzi]

Law enforcement or sales sample is the same thing when it comes to MG’s like this. They are both pre samples just different terms used to define them. I’ve had both versions of this in hand before and at the end of the day they were both pre sample guns as they came into the USA after 1968 but were already here and on paper before 1986. 

[Chef]

If I were you, I'd just go through with the transfer and see what happens.
If you're a 01/03 FFL/SOT, then post samples won't be approved for transfer to you without a LE letter, and the transfer will be denied. And that will tell you the status of the weapons in question (as far as pre-post goes) without having to rely on anyone else's interpretation or calling the AFT for clarification.

Basically, if they transfer into your inventory, then you know they are pre-samples.

[Got Uzi]

Why is this so hard to understand-does no one read before commenting-it is NOT a post sample as it was in the county before May 19, 1986 so it’s either a pre sample or transferable. Given what it stamped on the paperwork, both are pre samples.

Good lord it’s not rocket science people….in the county prior to 1986 and says on the paper work “sales sample” those two points mean PRE SAMPLE. 

[taylorwso]

3 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

Why is this so hard to understand-does no one read before commenting-it is NOT a post sample as it was in the county before May 19, 1986 so it’s either a pre sample or transferable. Given what it stamped on the paperwork, both are pre samples.

Good lord it’s not rocket science people….in the county prior to 1986 and says on the paper work “sales sample” those two points mean PRE SAMPLE. 

thanks for trying.

 

 

[Bwanalewis]

Ok.  Update.  According to NFA.  It is titled as a Law Enforcement Sample in 1983, therefore it remain a Law Enforcement Sample, and I would need a Law Letter.  Not sure if anyone has any other information or someone I can talk to at NFA, but this is the ruling as of Friday afternoon.  

[Got Uzi]

Love when the “experts” at ATF have no clue on their own rules. You don’t need a demo letter for a gun that’s not a post sample. It would be a transfer out from them to your books on a Form 5….but what do I know? I’m just a dumb a$$ who has done this multiple times now. 

[United Surplus Arms]

pretty sure the person you spoke to at the ATF is wrong.  It is either a fully transferrable or a pre-may dealer sample.  Cannot be a post sample (requiring a letter) if it was on the registry prior to May 1986.  I would just file the transfer paperwork and see what happens.  You can always attach a letter (Not a law letter - just something you type up) that states that the MG is a pre-dealer sample and does not require a law letter.  I did this when one of my pre-may's showed "red" on Eforms (As if it were a post sample).  I just typed up a letter stating that Eforms has a glitch and it was a pre-may.  Form 3 was approved in a few days.

[Chef]

Just Just go ahead and submit the transfer without a LE letter.
As I said before, if it gets approved, (which it will) it's a pre-sample (which it is).
If you would have submitted the forms when you first posted this question instead of wasting all this time asking, it would already be in your inventory.
I don't know anything about the guns themselves or who you're buying them from, but if I were the seller, I would have canceled the sale to you and moved on to find another buyer by now.
Pre-samples, if priced at market or below, sell themselves. A seller doesn't have to put up with buyers who aren't either knowledgeable or unsure.
If you play in the NFA world, there's two things you do if you want to be successful and establish a good rep.
One is to pay quickly once you have made a deal. And the other is to submit your transfers quickly as well.
If you're slow, drag your feet or start asking questions after you made a deal, then either the seller will move on to someone who's actually ready to do the deal or you'll get a bad rep as someone not to do business with.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Chef

[Bwanalewis]

5 hours ago, Chef said:

Just Just go ahead and submit the transfer without a LE letter.
As I said before, if it gets approved, (which it will) it's a pre-sample (which it is).
If you would have submitted the forms when you first posted this question instead of wasting all this time asking, it would already be in your inventory.
I don't know anything about the guns themselves or who you're buying them from, but if I were the seller, I would have canceled the sale to you and moved on to find another buyer by now.
Pre-samples, if priced at market or below, sell themselves. A seller doesn't have to put up with buyers who aren't either knowledgeable or unsure.
If you play in the NFA world, there's two things you do if you want to be successful and establish a good rep.
One is to pay quickly once you have made a deal. And the other is to submit your transfers quickly as well.
If you're slow, drag your feet or start asking questions after you made a deal, then either the seller will move on to someone who's actually ready to do the deal or you'll get a bad rep as someone not to do business with.

Chef,

About a quarter of the way through you post you said you had no idea about the guns, or whom I am purchasing the gun.   I am working with an FFL/SOT with 40+ years under his belt, he noticed when we were looking at the documents that it did not have the title of Sales Sample, but Law Enforcement Sample Not for Resale.  It prompted him to contact the NFA  to get clarification.  I thought it sounded strange, so I posted on the forum to try in get some insight.  During that time the NFA says it is Law Enforcement Sample, and I would need a letter.   I do not disagree with the fact that the NFA person that he spoke to is incorrect, but I have to deal with the information that I receive.  How do I submit the forms on a gun that I do not own?  Why would I be so quick to hand over 3 times the value of a gun that a 40 year FFL/SOT had a question on the sample status ?  I am quick at lot of things (just ask my wife,) but in business for me slow and steady wins the race.  Thanks again for your knowledge on the sample status, I am sure that we will get to that point with the NFA.   

Chad

[Chef]

As you're aware, before 1986, there were no pre or post samples, just samples.
I believe "Sales Sample", "Law Enforcement Sample" and "Law Enforcement Sample Not for Resale" are all just different names for basically the same thing, just used at different times. 
If the seller is still an active SOT, then having him submit (through e-forms) the transfer would clear things up rather quickly if you are a 01/03 SOT, because if they were post samples, the transfer would be denied without a letter.
Also, if the SOT seller is a 01/03 then the chances of him having post samples is slim and he should remember if he submitted letters to get them, because a 01/03 SOT can only have post samples if he had a letter to get them.
Of course things are different if he (or you) is a 07/02. Then it gets more complicated. Like, if he's a 07/02 and he's sent in his letter of intent to go out of business, then (if you are also a 07/02) posties would transfer to you without a letter, just like pre-samples would. But if he's a 07/02 and he's not going out of business, then posties without a letter wouldn't be approved for transfer.

[Got Uzi]

WOW you really need to stop trying to help as you are digging a hole that is deeper and deeper with no end in sight.  Again you are missing the point of your entire post and common sense (which seems isnt that common) if it is a gun that was in the states as a "dealer sample' prior to May 19, 1986 then it is a PRE SAMPLE!!! End of story so sit down, shut up and LISTEN to what other people are telling you!!! The fact that you have rambled on and on with NOTHING of substance to add, ONLY ADDS TO THE CONFUSION!!!

 

I have pre sample guns that are listed as "Law Enforcement Use Only" and "Sales Sample Only" but they are pre sample guns.  Couple came out of PD's and others came from other dealers.  I can understand what the OP is wanting to confirm on, and I have PM'd him directly to avoid anymore confusion and or misleading information, but you have added to this issue to say the least.

 

Also to another issue with your theory of using eForms to see if itll clear or not.....the eforms system does not know how to tell a pre sample from a transferable or post sample!!!  I have pre sample guns that are listed as transferable and others listed as post sample on my eforms account, so your idea there is complete bull$hit and wont work either.  

[Chef]

Ok, got it. I'll shut up.
But before I do, maybe try reading before you open up your mouth. I didn't say anything about using e-forms to tell a pre from a post sample. I said that if the OP is a 01/03, than any samples that successfully transfer to him would have to be pre samples because without a letter, the transfers wouldn't be approved.
You get it? Or do you need to start wearing glasses, clown.

[StrangeRanger]

You also threw in a whole pile of totally irrelevant BS which did nothing to clarify and a whole lot to muddy the issue

[taylorwso]

6 hours ago, Chef said:

Ok, got it. I'll shut up.
But before I do, maybe try reading before you open up your mouth. I didn't say anything about using e-forms to tell a pre from a post sample. I said that if the OP is a 01/03, than any samples that successfully transfer to him would have to be pre samples because without a letter, the transfers wouldn't be approved.
You get it? Or do you need to start wearing glasses, clown.

 

please

you threw in a ton of irrelevant bullshit, that derailed this thread

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by taylorwso

[United Surplus Arms]

In the spirit of the holiday season, perhaps we could just close this thread, rather than attack people trying to help others...

[Bwanalewis]

2 hours ago, shiklg said:

In the spirit of the holiday season, perhaps we could just close this thread, rather than attack people trying to help others...

I must admit, I never thought that asking this type of question would result in what it became.  I am a Rookie to the FFL/SOT world, so do not be surprised if I come up with another odd ball question. 

  I think it is pretty clear that this is a Pre 86 dealer sample.  My SOT who has been doing this almost as long as I have been alive was stumped by the Law Enforcement Designation.  It did not help that the NFA added to the confusion for me and the seller.  I think we have a good course of action moving forward with the transfer. 

 I hope everyone has a great holiday season with friends and family.  

Please close the thread as this horse is down for the count.  Kicking it would not do anyone any good. 

Thanks,

Chad