mike todd

the rule of law is based on possession not location. I have taken more than a little flak about my opinion concerning the legality of selling old saw cut kits and it is no more than that MY OPINION. however it IS based on interaction with numerous individuals that have experienced seizure / charges and great financial loss. the govt takes the stand "readily restorable" is a violation of the NFA. they publish what those current standards are. since the early 80's maybe b-4 , destruction requires a minimum of 1/4" removal at all cuts . to offer a "readily restorable" package is a violation. I have never heard of anyone prosecuted for simple possession, if no transaction occurred or was attempted other than DANS cannon deal but possession is covered in the act and I wouldn't be surprised to learn of one. remember when all the BREN kits were coming in? the first published standards called for 2 torch cuts and no mention of the GAS TUBE in front of the barrel latch. an individual in AZ could make one of those run in less than 1 hour with only a simple buzz box welder. then they changed the regs to include the tube be cut also. the early kits will usually bring a premium over the later ones. I feel the most DANGEROUS out there are the one saw cut thompsons as they were cut in the 50's. just today a non matching saw cut mp38 receiver with most parts mp 40 is offered here for $12k WHY? when taking risk DO YOUR OWN MATH after all its only you risking what ever you have.

PILE OF DOG SHIT? I wouldn't go that far to describe most any NFA device except maybe those PLASTIC TECH 9'S. ANYTHING STEEL CAN BE FIXED and made to run but you best have the equipment, time and desire. hell , I have built water cooled belt feds and put 'MISTING SPRAY NOZZLES in broken jackets cuz I loved to "play" around a the challenge. that's why I did so much with the odd calibers in the 1919 /'17 browning. you know 38spl and .410 shotgun and the like. BUT< GOD help you if you have to pay someone. I have "JUNGLE WORKSHOP" skill level and always pay for precision work by people that CAN do the work. EVEN this past year I lost more than $5k trying to get a long range rifle built. I SPENT $700 at SHILEN for an air gauged BLANK after paying $2k to the first builder that put a off center chamber in it. the GOOD BUILDER refused to complete any repairs because the bore had a tight spot 11 inches from the muzzle. who wants a 15" barreled CREEDMORE?

I LACK COMPUTER SKILLS AND SEARCH KNOWLEDGE , but our org DID OFFER legal support for a couple and I know others PERSONALLY. the worst was DANS RUSSIAN CANNON BUY. 2 approved dewatts with full documentation. shipped to AZ WITH AGENCY APPROVAL! after arrival during a so called "compliance check" both cannons in same condition were seized along with EVERYTHING ELSE ON SITE! 2-3 years negotiations and a plea deal was agreed due to financial burden's. DAN IS WELL KNOWN IN THE TRADE and for some reason has the nick name DANGEROUS BOB? the other I know about is a well known case involving saw cut THOMPSONS. it has been discussed several times on many boards but I was not involved or know anyone personally. in the 70's and 80'smy family ran the major gunshows in AZ and a few vendors had table inventory seized . again all I know of the individual was hit with so many charges they accepted the loss and charges were dropped.

YES, THE EXTRA TALL WAS THE KEY FOR MY OPINION. it was an attempt to create a market for something to sell not available from others and marketed as an aid for long range light gathering. also the VMI packaging was another marketing attempt added in the 60's to add credibility . remember back then original small parts were auctioned at apprx $0.10 per pound at all the base sales I bought several lots at $125 a ton!

GADS, THATS WHAT I SAID AT THE GET GO! IF TAXABLE, any tax is due when the gun is MOVED and sorry to disagree but all my guns were recorded ON A FORM -4 when I bought them SO, "THE TRANSFER WAS RECORDED ON A FORM 4 AND THATS WHERE THEY SIT. and just to keep the record straight , I said "it might be possible a new licensee" not that it was fact! this thread started because the DAMNED QUESTION WAS ASKED ABOUT A GUN STATED TO BE REGISTERED ON A FORM 4 at a SOT out of state and what was the best way to handle it? if NOT A C+R , IT MUST GO TO A FFL/SOT IN THE SAME STATE AS THE "TRANFERER" ON A TAX PAID FORM 4. IF EXISTING ON A FORM 4, IT CANT BE TRANSFERED USING A FORM-3. THEN ANOTHER TAX MUST BE PAID TO PUT IT ON ANOTHER FORM-4 TO THE FINAL RESTING PLACE. ! IN MY STUPIDITY, I TRIED TO EXPLAIN THE WAIT INVOLVED IN EITHER CASE, HOPING HE WOULD SEE IT BEST TO GET A C+R LIC FIRST, IF THE WEAPON WAS ELIGABLE. ALL THE MUMBO JUMBO GOBBEL DE GOOK THAT FOLLOWED WAS COMPLETLY OUT OF TEXT AND CONTINUES TO FOLLOW THAT COURSE AND IT CHANGES NOTHING! YOU CANT CHANGE ANY PART OF AN EQUATION AND GET THE SAME RESULTS YOU WERE SEARCHING FOR! at no point was a complete explanation of the national firearms act requested or needed and form 5's form 9's were never brought up now we are forced to ingest those possibilities . I THOUGHT it was only a bureaucrats duty to complicate things! and it certainly makes it easier for me to understand why we are in the position we are in now. I ALSO STATED I WAS THROUGH BUT ITS STARTING TO BE FUN SO LETS DO IT! WHO'S NEXT!

DONT ! when you asked it told the story. they do make great "toys" and are enjoyable to use, BUT they will require a solid "FIDDLE KNOWLEDGE" to keep one going and the tools to do it. at the bare minimum you will need a close friend with the tools and knowledge. parts are soft / many examples out of spec/ others "BUBBA 'D UP and getting a good one is very rare. a very good friend of mine made one perfect and it ran like a champ 3 yrs ago he sold it the owner has had it maybe 10 months and he has driven my friend insane with issue's get a POWDER SPRINGS or RPB- INGRAM M-10 or a REISING . same money no issue's .the REISING has been a part of my collection more than 50 yrs and I have NEVER broken a part. I have bulged a bunch of barrels using cast reloads and just kept on using them as is . you cant go wrong! hell i'm going to go shoot one of mine RIGHT NOW!

THUMPY! SHAME ON YOU ! HOW RE THEY POSED TO FEED ALL DIM HALL MAGOTS AND INDIGENT SPERM RECEPTACLES IFN YOU AND ME DON PAY TAXES? THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH MONEY THEY NEED TO FUEL THE BUSES TO SHUTTLE ALL THE VOTERS AROUND THE GHETTO? just between you and I what you declare has little to do with what they can hit you with. all they need do is watch and it WILL KETCH UP! THE YEAR AFTER I LIQUIDATED MY BUSINESS , I BECAME COMPLETLY AND OFFICALY DISABLED and am not required to file ANY income tax statements for 22 years, because there isn't ANYTHING! 6 years after my last divorce I was "AUDITED" they needed to know how I could pay a $5700. per month mortgage with ZERO INCOME or cash assets ! one of the main reasons I left her is after I cut off access to the funds , she just got a credit line on our paid for home all without ANY SIGNATURE OR NOTICE TO ME! I "gave" her the house in the settlement and she never took it out of my name so for almost 13 yrs IRS POUNDED MY BUTT and made it impossible to have a bank account longer than 90 days no matter how many times it was explained or what papers I sent, they still pulled the plug and I had to answer. when they quit making tin coffee cans, I went to 20 mm ammo cans, no long teller lines or monthly fees , but it is impossible to cash a check. I gave ALL my guns and ammo to a friend ,have a free hand buying or selling what "HE" needs live on the ranch and do what I WANT EVERYDAY! THE ONLY WORRY IS THOSE DAMNED YANKEE'S AND HOW YOU GUY'S ARE GOING TO HANDLE THEM when this thing "IMPLODES ON ITSELF"

THEY APPEAR TO BE ONE OF THE MANY VARIATIONS OF "MATCH" FRONT SIGHTS MADE FOR THE GARAND AND M-14. YIU DID NOT MENTION ANY MARKING'S AND THEY WERE RAMPANT IN THE 60'S AND 70'S FROM MANY SOURCES.

GUYS, remember the ATF guide lines are only that and no more. they exist so one can destruct a weapon and be safe from legal problems possessing whats left. the first time I ran into them involved a huge lot of BROWNINGS in a bonded warehouse and the destruction diagrams were for customs to sign off. every time I see a post of this type, I try to remind folks that even though something was destroyed at a level required at the time, if you offer something for sale NOT AT THE CURRENT LEVEL required, its the same as offering it INTACT! single saw cut MG's are a great example. ok to possess but offering for sale same as live. there is no provision for "grand father rights etc. so pay heed in the examples I know of the defendant was bound by "non- disclosure" provisions when sentenced , but "observers" are not bound.

JB FINALLY GOT IT ALL OUT IN A WAY WE CAN ALL UNDERSTAND. THANX! MIKE

pm sent mike todd

KH, YOU GOT MOST OF IT RIGHT ! "pre may samples" are guns that were IMPORTED after the 68 gun control act became law which stopped the import of ALL weapons of war, NFA or not except for "OFFICAL AGENCY , or GOVT use. the category was created to allow LIC dealers to obtain "samples" for demonstration. country of origin was not an issue and remember all the "lend lease" and assistance guns we provided. one could buy them out of stock from several big importer's like INTERARMS , SAAMCO, etc. and when business ceased the owner could keep them and they became known as 'pre may samples". as of MAY, 19 1986, ATF passed a ruling that in order to get a "SAMPLE" the dealer needed a letter of intent to purchase or requesting a demo of a specific weapon from a qualified agency . even new imports of WWII weapons were possible along with new examples or designs built after the 86 cut off date. this covered all these that became known as "post may samples" and must always be in the books of an active license. in order to get a lic for NFA weapons, one must INTEND to conduct business, not just accumulate examples to build a collection or use for recreation. I suspect one day more than one individual will pay the piper in that respect. yea merrily beware the trust . make sure you can "TRUST" others in the trust. I know a gent that lost all his NFA because of his sons bad decisions made one night

wally, I think maybe YOU took the statement WRONG ? the way I get it the statement supports GOOD integrity but brings up some action that needs clarification by abandoning NFA items. I don't see any accusations at all.

BORE, THE FULL AUTO TRIP WILL GO ON ANY CARRIER they cost about $35 from PJ. I cant tell any diff using the roller over the plain carrier if the roller hits it is most likely at the end of the carrier travel only as I see very little evidence of the early non roller touching the receiver.

I DONT UNDERSTAND HIS DESCRIPTION OF THE WORK PERFORMED. because ALL the ANTI BOUNCE parts are in the carrier ? the ONLY REASON I CAME BACK IN THE THREAD WAS TO MAKE SURE ITS CLEAR WHERE THE ANTI BOUNCE PARTS ARE AND THAT THEY ARE PRESENT. it only takes one look at a broken stock to see how serious this can be. the ONLY way YOU KNOW FOR SURE ITS PRESENT, is by removing the plungers from the carrier and checking?

THUMPY, the mags are for the only variation I know of that's double feed. they seem to have plenty for now so I would just buy one to make sure then get what you need. once word gets out, I will bet the run out so I would not drag my feet much. ALSO, ITS NOT ME SELLING THEM! go to FTF INDUSTRIES I was just passing on info. cheers mike

JOHNSON, the agency is GLAD to provide ANY SOT or FFL holder the PROPER methods to comply with a "PRIVATE" collection. it is a long time practice, but they are VERY SPECIFIC ! funny thing about this thread, NOT ONE EXAMPLE OF A TAX FREE TRANFER OF A FORM 4 reg'td piece has surfaced since it started? I would think they would be lined up to help me "swallow" the fact? I will add it might be possible for an old example on a form 4 held by a NEW LICENSEE to go to inventory tax free simply by getting the FFL, but then it would no longer be on a form 4, so we are back to SQUARE ONE it becomes reg'td on form 3 when on the books. and with that said, I AM OUT OF HERE! CHEERS

JOHNSON, the agency is GLAD to provide ANY SOT or FFL holder the PROPER methods to comply with a "PRIVATE" collection. it is a long time practice, but they are VERY SPECIFIC ! funny thing about this thread, NOT ONE EXAMPLE OF A TAX FREE TRANFER OF A FORM 4 reg'td piece has surfaced since it started? I would think they would be lined up to help me "swallow" the fact? I will add it might be possible for an old example on a form 4 held by a NEW LICENSEE to go to inventory tax free simply by getting the FFL, but then it would no longer be on a form 4, so we are back to SQUARE ONE it becomes reg'td on form 3 when on the books. and with that said, I AM OUT OF HERE! CHEERS

keep in mind one sad fact if you will. the way the regs are written in order to sell or offer any NFA device it MUST be destroyed to the CURRENT LEVEL! I DO KNOW PEOPLE PERSONALLY THAT HAVE BEEN CHARGED AND ARRESTED for offering /transferring items cut to old standards. even though others manage to get by, you could be the one. hell have seen complete unregistered MG's sold on GUNBROKER in recent years. BE CAREFULL mike

MIKE just for fun I want to toss my 2 cents in this thread at least I am sure to stir things up for someone! last year when I asked for help with the AUG I was almost completely ignored and had to go off board to get the information I needed which was EVERTHING about the full auto conversion. during the 86 fiasco I was so busy converting and making things, I missed the AUG completely so like you, found they were all very expensive today. after the ban expired for some reason all the "preban" examples started dropping in price and it was pretty easy to find a nice semi under $2500. and I bought several to serve as "hosts" for the sear when I managed to find one. DUE to the only MAJOR fault in the design,the anti bounce carrier, I bought a package for less than half the going price. a gent bought one, endured the 18 months transfer wait and when he took it out it blew the stock apart in his face with the first magazine! he never touched it again and sold me everything including the broken stock! you CAN put a full auto pack in ANY semi AUG stock by drilling it out for the GUIDE RAILS and milling the receiver lock (slide) to fit. it takes maybe 15 minutes to complete if you cant find all the tools very fast. the ANTI BOUNCE is just 2 rods and 2 short springs and with a little heat to the guides, is a simple addition and that's it, done deal knowing how long to make the rods took a while but I managed. your package has the impossible to find A2 receiver which is a BIG DEAL and adds a lot of value when you consider what it would bring alone. when you must buy all the items, rather than gather them as they show up, the cost is always greater so value is as always a matter of opinion, only decided by what it will bring when offered. the system is certainly one of the most difficult to find in the trade and only time will tell. one thing is certain, I would NOT sell mine and if you remain in the trade, will regret you parted with yours if it moves on. myself, I put very little value on the MGPG . lets hope it lacks the ability to do the damage the BLUE BOOK OF GUN VALUES did to the trade. ever wonder why EVERY example of a firearm is the same price at a gun show? not much thought need for that and most get it wrong anyway. GOOD LUCK , it will a gas to watch! CHEERS MIKE

THUMPY, the mags are for the ORIGINAL POWDER SPRINGS AND EARLY RPD INGRAM M-10 9mm. the gun was designed to use those fantastic WATLHER MPL/MPK double stack / double feed mags. they soon had trouble getting enough to keep going so the had a "local" shop do a close copy. these are the same as the "copy" not close to the quality of the WALTHERS that now cost more than $150 ea IF you can find them , but certainly 10 times better than the plastic junk that followed and all you could get until now. I ended up buying 16 and they all worked perfect . I did not think they would run after I put them in the gun due to too much up and down play. but they all worked perfect and loaded easy. REMEMBER, MAC-10 IS A NICK NAME FOR THESE GUNS! THEY ARE M-10 SUB MACHINE GUNS I don't know for sure but believe the nick name game from using "military armament corporation" in short form over the years.

I NEVER DID ANYTHING BUT AGREE A SOT CAN TRANSFER TAX FREE TO ANOTHER DEALER with the caveat that it must be on a form3 in his inventory. IN THIS CASE IT WAS PLAINLY STATED IN THE FIRST SENTENCE THE ITEM WAS ON A FORM-4 AT A FFL/SOT. over the years I have processed more than a thousand transfers , maybe several and every possible combination you can imagine has been encountered doing so, BUT NEVER A TAX FREE TRANSFER FOR AN ITEM ON A FORM-4 ! COME ON if that were possible , don't you think some feller would get his bud dealer to wangle some "magic" paper work and get it done in order to save $200 ? hell in some of my recent sales, I have been offered HUGE amounts extra to ship on a form-5 repair so the buyer could enjoy his purchase while waiting for the transfer AND NO WAY IN HELL. I have heard but never been able to confirm that ATF "handled" a estate involving out of state heirs that only wanted to get them sold and no tax was paid. in all fairness they would have been tax free transfers any way so I guess its possible. when I said NEVER , I left out estate items. THEY ARE ALWAYS TAX FREE if documented in a will.

SORRY JOHNSON, BUT AGAIN YOU "JUMPED" instead of understanding the full context of the sentence. as a matter of fact any transferable INVENTORY will be on a form 3 and can indeed move tax free to another SOT/FFL. HOWEVER ANY PERSONAL EXAMPLES Could BE ON A FORM4 AND NOT INVENTORY ANY TRANSFER WILL REQUIRE THE $200 TAX EVEN TO HIS OWN INVENTORY and he can indeed sell any personal property without transferring it to INVENTORY . why do you keep hiding from the fact that "KIMBER" stated the item was on a form-4? talk to some of the dealers that have done this in the past , its not that rare. some collectors that decided to get a license kept the collection out of the "business" to protect it from the usual liability of any business. I have been involved in moving several just as described in the past and I have seen NO change in the regulations that make it any different.

RANGER, I value your input and line of thought , but many times you respond and manage to leave things out or it looks like you didn't get the context of the statement. in the VERY FIRST SENTENCE he stated the gun was on a FORM -4 and he "has a FFL/SOT. AGAIN , that is entirely possible as I explained. BUT if the gun is on a form 4 there will be a tax paid to transfer it, EVEN TO ANOTHER FFL/SOT HOLDER ! any one can quote any part of the code to support an opinion , and nothing changes the facts stated . it is or it isn't and that's it !

THUMPY , when I pointed out the rock isl results, that didn't mean there are not still some fantastic REISINGS out there for much less. the auction results are just a "forecast" of what you can expect to see all over the market in the future . many auction buyers do so in order to remain low key and unknown . then you have some buyers that cant control their EGO or want to prove a point . I consider myself a knowledgeable buyer but if I WANT something will do whatever it takes at times. by the way there was one of the nicest mod-50 REISINGS I have seen in many years just offered here on sturm in NEVADA for a fantastic price. you might take a look.