The Lone Ranger

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Everything posted by The Lone Ranger

  1. NFA Rules on LE Trades

    That's what would be expected. It's somewhat unusual for modern firearms to be floating unregistered or in F10 purgatory.
  2. NFA Rules on LE Trades

    The disposing agency shouldn't be the one providing the letter and the agency that does provide the letter needs to articulate the need for a number higher than one. If you are bored enough to read Ruling 2002-5, note there is a discrepancy between the summary and actual text. Until summer 2008, NFA Branch went by the summary but switched to the text which specifies justification for more than one.
  3. NFA Rules on LE Trades

    Probably registered; Forms hidden in a cabinet or trashed shortly after purchase.
  4. NFA Rules on LE Trades

    A F5 won't work - it needs a birth certificate first. The only route for that on an unregistered is a F10 and those don't go into commerce since 1974 so the F5 gets disapproved. Cops can use your torch, no problem there. No need for you to log them in since you are not taking control of them (and have no reason or avenue to do so). The LE agency notifying ATF of destroying unregistered firearms is pointless since ATF has no record of them. If the guns are registered, the agency can notify or not, it's optional but may save future generations a panic attack thinking their machineguns were stolen. Yeah, cutting up USG loaner guns not good for the PD so it might be worth asking what they are, where they came from. Cops are aces at losing forms. M16s or M14s should make them a bit cautious about cutting. Inquiring by serial # is the most efficient way and if registered getting a copy should not be difficult. Last I knew, there was a waiting list and if an agency opted to dispose, they would get directions from the same state property office that hooked them up on where to send them.
  5. How do pre may dealer samples work?

    the posted regulation is one that allows for a successor for the existing term of the SOT - same is allowable for an FFL - it does not transfer registration to the successor but rather allows cleaning up after a business owner passes. At the end of that term, if the successor wants to stay in business, a new license SOT is required. SOT is brutal in that regard. If you die May 31, your successor has 30 days of SOT time. I may be misreading or missing something in your post, but I don't think FFL/SOT successorship solves your question as you were looking for inheritance potential?
  6. How do pre may dealer samples work?

    You need to pay SOT to acquire - which applies to anyone who would stand to inherit.
  7. Is 5320 frivolous?

    Compliments of congress in 1968. If the swamp repeals it, it's gone. All you need is another political party to garner a majority in both chambers and win the presidency - and strike quickly because once the third party gets a taste of wealth and power you will need a fourth.
  8. F5 With conditions

    99-308.... 99th congress law 308 Firearm Owner's Protection Act / 18 USC 922(o) post 86 sample.
  9. C&R NFA Transfer - Individual to C&R 03

    grasshopper and the handbook are correct - C&R firearm can go direct from a nonlicensee; trust, LLC, corporation, or natural person does not change anything. 18 USC 922(a)(2)(A) if you want to get specific.
  10. Nfa form 4 changes

    Once the insults begin, it's time for me to bow out. You didn't like my answer - neither did I. Most of us would like a never ending supply of new transferrable MGs but that isn't reality. "Replacement" MGs need to be registered. If you want to pretend you are Hatton Industries and it's 1985 while you are building a paperless 240 today or are confident in your ability to convince a jury a sliver of metal with a removed serial # is a machinegun while the 24 pound piece of metal next to it that looks and acts like a machinegun is just cosmetics and you are not really building anything, knock yourself out - risk vs reward. For those interested, here is the statute and referenced regulation in its entirety. Each reader can decide if I am "twisting" anything. I'm too lazy to copy the statutes about removing serial numbers. 18 USC 922(k) and 26 USC 5861(g) §5841. Registration of firearms (a) Central registry The Secretary shall maintain a central registry of all firearms in the United States which are not in the possession or under the control of the United States. This registry shall be known as the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. The registry shall include— (1) identification of the firearm; (2) date of registration; and (3) identification and address of person entitled to possession of the firearm. (b) By whom registered Each manufacturer, importer, and maker shall register each firearm he manufactures, imports, or makes. Each firearm transferred shall be registered to the transferee by the transferor. (c) How registered Each manufacturer shall notify the Secretary of the manufacture of a firearm in such manner as may by regulations be prescribed and such notification shall effect the registration of the firearm required by this section. Each importer, maker, and transferor of a firearm shall, prior to importing, making, or transferring a firearm, obtain authorization in such manner as required by this chapter or regulations issued thereunder to import, make, or transfer the firearm, and such authorization shall effect the registration of the firearm required by this section. (d) Firearms registered on effective date of this Act A person shown as possessing a firearm by the records maintained by the Secretary pursuant to the National Firearms Act in force on the day immediately prior to the effective date of the National Firearms Act of 1968 1 shall be considered to have registered under this section the firearms in his possession which are disclosed by that record as being in his possession. (e) Proof of registration A person possessing a firearm registered as required by this section shall retain proof of registration which shall be made available to the Secretary upon request. § 479.103 Registration of firearms manufactured. Each manufacturer qualified under this part shall file with the Director an accurate notice on Form 2 (Firearms), Notice of Firearms Manufactured or Imported, executed under the penalties of perjury, to show his manufacture of firearms. The notice shall set forth the name and address of the manufacturer, identify his special (occupational) tax stamp and Federal firearms license, and show the date of manufacture, the type, model, length of barrel, overall length, caliber, gauge or size, serial numbers, and other marks of identification of the firearms he manufactures, and the place where the manufactured firearms will be kept. All firearms manufactured by him during a single day shall be included on one notice, Form 2 (Firearms), filed by the manufacturer no later than the close of the next business day. The manufacturer shall prepare the notice, Form 2 (Firearms), in duplicate, file the original notice as prescribed herein and keep the copy with the records required by subpart I of this part at the premises covered by his special (occupational) tax stamp. Receipt of the notice, Form 2 (Firearms), by the Director shall effectuate the registration of the firearms listed on that notice. The requirements of this part relating to the transfer of a firearm are applicable to transfers by qualified manufacturers.
  11. Nfa form 4 changes

    You may need someone smarter than me to explain better - I'm not the sharpest pencil in the cup. If it exists, it needs to be registered. 1 MG, you need one registration 2 MGs, you need two registrations and so on. If you are at a point trying to claim an exemption to registering based on the angle that MG#1 isn't an MG any more and MG#2 is actually MG#1 because the serial # was cut off MG#1 and placed on MG#2, I am lost, cannot connect that to anything in the book, and can only see a potentially uncomfortable outcome. I doubt it will work any better next time around but someone may well do it. Money brings out the best in some of us. I'm more bookworm than mechanic or engineer, so could be way off.
  12. Nfa form 4 changes

    RE: "unregistered".... when a new MG was built to replace the M-10 type (or whatever lower $ firearm), those firearms were never registered as required (except if built by or on behalf of the USG with a variance to skip the F2 and F5). When the new builds were transferred, they were done with no paper (no F2, so there could be no F3/F4 and if they had been registered they would have been post 86). The cheaper item was transferred on paper but never went anywhere. So - you had a MG that was built, never registered, and transferred without approval combined with an approved transfer application for a smashed/cut or otherwise never delivered MG. You predate my experience. I am older than ATF but not by much, having to rely on old hands relating experiences and reading documents from earlier time periods for historical context. My favorites are the DEWAT rulings (55-590 comes to mind but I don't think it was the only one) and the Federal Firearms Act (1938) which seemed to be more focused on violent criminals than the GCA... but as with most things government, growth always comes I am not convinced more is better. Socialist/communist/giant government philosophy is based in part on the individual being too inept to conduct themselves. My question has always been if that is the case, how does granting access to unlimited power and money make a portion of those inept people smart? Not painting with a broad brush - I have found government employees to be a reflection of society in general - some saints, some demons, most in between the extremes - same to be said for firearms collectors and industry. I have taken on the X-Files operating procedure: "trust no one".
  13. Nfa form 4 changes

    Mr. Todd, There was at least one internet personality claiming to be a firearm law expert who stated no violations were committed by anyone, that there were only minor modifications made to existing firearms. To the best of my knowledge, that claim was false and despite all the smoke, it was simply a fraud case. I forget the duration of the trial - something like 2-3 weeks and the jury said "guilty" in roughly the time it took them to eat lunch. There were several charges associated with that case, but I cannot list them per defendant. A few to pick from: false statements/records, possession of unregistered, transfer in violation of the act come to mind quickly - and would not all necessarily apply to all involved parties. I also won't claim to be wholly knowledgeable of every firearm involved, but for the ones I am familiar with the question of modification or redesign was not an issue. The only "modification" made to any MG was removing the serial # (another charge to add to the previous list). There were two separate MGs, each having mass and occupying space; one registered, one unregistered - the unregistered MG being transferred under the false pretense of being the registered MG. The argument that the serial number is the MG while the other _ pounds of steel surrounding it is just decoration doesn't pass the proverbial "straight face test". In the statutes, serial numbers are not registered, firearms are - the serial is only a means of identifying a unique item. I can cut a serial # off a $1 bill and integrate it into a $100 bill I made at home or rivet a Volkswagen VIN tag onto a "Audi" built in my garage. The recipient of either would not be well served nor happy upon discovery of their origin.
  14. It's do or die tomorrow guys..

    Not that republicans are anything to be entirely happy about. It was DJT, Jeff Sessions, and numerous republican legislators (after prompting from the NRA no less) that have advocated deviating from the constitution to allow ATF to enact bans via regulation. That process normally takes approximately seven years but the "bump stock ban" somehow looks to be moving much quicker than any regulation since the multiple rifle sale reporting that conflicted with the FOPA. It will be interesting to see how much more fruit that move bears in the coming years. I wrote to NRA in May asking if they have a plan to prevent further abuses, provide legal defense for those charged with violations of the non-law regulation, or compensate those whose lawfully obtained property was taken (thanks to the NRA pushing the idea). Radio silence thus far.
  15. Nfa form 4 changes

    Fair point - I should have added a rationale to the post rather than just the end result. Simply put, you have to register everything that is built. For all the smoke that was blown on the internet about this case it was simply selling unregistered MGs. Every lawfully possessed MG (in public use) is tethered to a registration. When you have two MGs, there should be two registrations. No provision for sharing or transferring a registration from one gun to another. I did not take the OP as a troll; I was hesitant to reply briefly but then there are new people coming on board every day and it seemed like an honest question about a potentially hazardous topic. There are loads of internet jackasses and I can feel myself slipping into the mold sometimes as I get older and crankier. Thought I'd try being nice for a change.
  16. Nfa form 4 changes The appeals court posted the case on youtube for those who may be interested:
  17. Nfa form 4 changes

    People have done so. You as a downstream registrant don't assign sn, model, or manufacturer so what's left is caliber and dimensions. Some people have built new (unregistered but more "cool") firearms then changed the dimensions of a previously registered firearm, using the original mfg/model/sn. Everyone can make a risk vs. reward assessment and act accordingly. Longest sentence I am aware of is 121 months.
  18. Werner posting here would be great. AMA Frank too, although I believe his time is well occupied at the moment.
  19. Pending FBI Background Check

    This is one of the few times when the old "background check delay" story can be true. FBI researches checks as a courtesy to ATF but is under no obligation to do so. Conversely, FBI is mandated by law and regulation to research and respond to checks initiated by dealers. When a panic buy episode occurs (for example if a president were to suggest confiscation first, due process later or the largest gun lobby org in the country starts proposing bans via regulation that might spark a rush) the FBI cannot keep up with FFL generated checks and the NFA checks get put on the back burner. Roughly 70-75% of NFA checks need no research and are automatically proceeded by a computer and thus not an issue to those applicants. Note how that article about Trump being bad/stupid for wanting to add examiners to NFA fails to mention the # of examiners in NFA tripled during the BHO administration. Probably an honest oversight...
  20. I can at least respect the "repeal the second amendment" crowd for adhering to the rules. Meanwhile, back at the ranch the ban via regulation tactic is moving ahead. Normal time frame for a regulation change is 7 years. Maybe this one will go a tiny bit quicker?
  21. Just to place things in context which is rarely done for whatever reason(s) - Reagan signed at the strong urging of the gun lobby, specifically NRA & GOA (and maybe some other smaller units I'm missing) which had determined that a small inconvenience of a firearm ban was not going to derail seven years of work on the FOPA. Had he vetoed it, he would be labeled anti-gun then and now. The NRA is now advocating for ATF to get the authority to ban via regulation rather than requiring it to get through congress. I have written a nice letter asking for the thought process and anticipated benefits to gun owners both present and future if this occurs. Hopefully it will rationalize what appears irrational unless viewed through the prism of fundraising potential (the gun lobby is a business first and foremost). For those who have not experienced the much discussed "roundtable":
  22. BATFE, ..stupid is being kind

    If Ruger did not mark "F" on the firearm, then AC556 is the model. If the firearm is marked AC556F then that is the correct model. The box is irrelevant for anything but a storage and shipping container. ATF's failure was not pushing it back on the first modifier. Any firearm with one barrel does not have three calibers - just accurately describe it at the time of application. Firearms registered in 57 calibers never should not have been allowed to develop but it was and now applicants are confused about one barrel = one caliber; the simple has become complex through a team effort of public and government. Another common scenario is "MP-5 ABCD5". If the firearm is marked "MP-5" by the manufacturer, it's an MP-5 and that's it regardless of what trigger or stock is attached at any given moment. If it's marked MP-5NA3 then that's what it is for its lifetime despite the S-E-F trigger and fixed stock attached afterward. I used to be a DMV employee; laws are something entirely different from lifetime history of the product. I could tell you how much a <8,000 through 80,000 plate cost, how long you had to obtain title/registration/DL after moving in state, how to pay sales tax on a car purchased from a non-dealer, catch an ID thief, even one or two odometer cheats; that's what I needed to get through the day without giving taxpayers a runaround and catch the occasional crook but I couldn't tell you the manufacturing process of every car ever built or imported into the US - not even close and did not need to. The laws applied to every car regardless of the year, engine size, or model. P.S. Good luck getting the human gun encyclopedias to apply for examiner jobs (or the internet cadre that claim they could process an application .3 seconds). It's been tried - until impressment becomes legal, it probably won't happen.
  23. BATFE, ..stupid is being kind

    Please accept my apology and consider the offer of assistance rescinded - I had no intention of winding you or anyone else up, just to point out something that frequently occurs so you might consider the possibility that you may actually be in a contest with the original registrant rather than the research contractor who sent your form back and if so, adjust tactics accordingly. I detest the inefficiency and corruption in government almost as much as you - maybe even as much - but expecting a form reviewer to be intimately versed in the manufacture of the Puteaux and knowing there is no way anyone could ever change a caliber on one so as to spot the original registrant as incompetent and you as competent when most "gun people" could not recognize one by sight or name is not realistic. The overwhelming majority of birth certificates in the NFRTR were submitted by non-government entities; collectors/shooters, manufacturers, and importers who occasionally did not worry about descriptive data that much and when in doubt resorted to kentucky windage on origin, dimensions, models, and calibers. It's not pleasant but it's reality.
  24. BATFE, ..stupid is being kind

    While your proposed scenario is entirely possible, the *usual* cause for this is some other dumbass outside the government injected the wrong data into the sewage pipe decades ago and the person who is looking at an application now has never seen a Puteaux and has no idea what caliber they were manufactured in or if anyone did or could have changed it over the years. Now your application differs from the one the first applicant claimed was correct and the bureaucrat has no way to know who is competent, correct, or not. My anecdotal experience has been there is far more bad data provided by applicants than is applied by the bureaucracy (which is logical given that all original specs are provided from the public/industry). P.S. If you happen to be the original registrant and have your F-1/F-2/F-6/4467 showing it as 25mm, sending a copy in should hopefully cure it if it was a ATTU/ATF error. If you really did get an employee who is projecting the model into the caliber.... get some ibuprofen and send me a PM.
  25. MG C&R Transfer - Individual to C&R Collector

    I'm old and lazy - should have been more specific - or the OP can check out the instructions instead of paying attention to us. If the 03 FFL is held by a legal entity, the 5330.20 goes with and covers the same ground. If a natural person holds the license just fill it out. Shame on ATF - should have used "natural person" rather than "individual" to be more consistent with statutory verbiage. If I'm missing something interesting, help a brother out. If the transferee is an individual, the entire Form 4 shall be completed except for items 18 and 19. In addition, the transferee must include his or her fngerprints on FBI Form FD-258 and his or her photos (see instruction 2g). If the transferee is other than an individual, e.g., a trust or legal entity such as a corporation, the transferee shall not complete items 14, 15,16, and 17. All other items must be completed including the signing of the Transferee Certifcation statement by the transferee. Photographs and Fingerprints. An individual transferee, except if licensed as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer under the GCA, must (1) attach to item 15 of the ATF Form 4, a 2 inch x 2 inch photograph of the frontal view of the transferee taken within 1 year prior to the date of the application and (2) submit two properly completed FBI Forms FD-258 (Fingerprint Card with blue lines) with the application. The fngerprints must be clear for accurate classifcation and taken by someone properly equipped to take them.