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GAFFSHOT, ammo is stated to be FEDERAL I would take that as a factory loads , many sub machine guns fire well b-4 a round is fully chambered. known as "preignition" its a necessary part of any blowback action and the cases will show the effect. when things go wrong and fire even sooner, it will be much more obvious as in this case.
GOT take down tool at FTF. GREAT FOLKS, most likely will need to make my own alignment kit thanx for the redirection !
THANX FOR THE TIP ! I use them for all the rest of my MAC stuff don't know why I didn't put it all together that they would do the can stuff also. I just need working tools so no need for originals.
I need a set of tools to maintain an old 9mm SIONICS can (2 stage?) the large alum cyl with 2 studs on one end and the alignment tools for cleaning and tear down. any leads will help. cheers mike
WOOPS , something is messed up in this thread and it's NOT the ATF. yes its a bureaucracy and we all know the plural form SUCK's as well as the singular form. and I full well agree too many jobs have no performance standards . since the agency became part of the JUSTICE DEPT , the mainstream attitude has reversed itself and few members of the Geheime Feldspolizi remain . there is no concerted effort to deny or prolong any transfers in evidence nor has there ever been. COMPLACENTY ? yes, very abundant and almost brandished as a badge of honor as it is at all "must use" agencies E-FILES are possible because all the licensee's are examined every year , records confirmed and any faults corrected as early as possible without multiple transfers using bad info. both sides of the fence are responsible for all the incorrect info on form 4's . fixing that was what started the major delays , but the MAIN delay was due to the regulation changes in house at the FBI following passage of the homeland security act. the recent agency rulings clearly show support for our side with the new forms and electronic data exchange showing a major improvement and transfers moving like they did in the 50's and 60's
DEAN, next time you take that "mac" out be sure to have the original upper along. just in case. a quick switch back to the original upper and you would know if it was the ammo or the change. I try to have a good asst of my "proven" parts / mags/ ammo along anytime something new is tried. while the net can be a big help, there are just too many variables. its certainly better to use a "PROVEN" set or combination of parts .
"students of the platform" , well put sir! my love for these things makes all the required stuff automatic and "out of mind" but I know there are shooters that only wish to put rounds downrange and could care less about the mechanics/ history etc. they all do require more thought than just breaking the sear.
he is right, these mounts are getting hard to find and they are a great variation. a little known extra tidbit of info about them is, a No1MkIII rifle can be used as the long A/A support in place of the standard aux leg. makes a outstanding looking display.
STEVE, forgetting the moral side of it which should have been enough to save you, the "criminal" act was fraudulently claiming the firearm was transferable, when he had knowledge it was in fact a restricted sales sample. some you might try in addition, contact the attorney general in the state he resides in and inform them of the fraud committed . make sure to send clear well written statements explaining actual cash values of both variations in hard copy and request a response.no many from large cities will respond, but you might get lucky. I have done so several times with grubs on gunbroker and the like with mixed results using various agencies with local power. once I had a no ship in 7 months from a small town in WYOMING, I contacted the local Sheriff that was excited to help and my goods were "over nighted" the same week. knock knock can work for both sides at times.
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I know off several cases very close to what you are enduring. over the years many forms were returned without either box checked or the red ink restriction and when they hired all the new examiners all the incomplete forms quit getting out. one was a FND and I was waiting behind the buyer with cash in hand if it didn't go right. the only difference was the dealer never claimed knowledge of the restriction. it never went to trial but the buyer did obtain a lawyer . he ended up loosing $14,000. when the gun sold as a sample apprx 6yrs later. with all the LLC's and failed operations, even a win may not see any pay back. I would suggest a lawyer with NFA experience only. its tough to argue what you don't know. it breaks my heart every time I find out about one of these deals. its almost impossible to get any info from ATF if you are not directly in the registry for that exact weapon, so you did everything possible and acted in good faith. what the seller did was CRIMINAL and if that's the only option to pursue at least some satisfaction might be possible GOOD LUCK!
the $4.5 / 5k might be a bit optimistic these days but anything is possible as we all know examples for a fast sale do show. overall at the major auctions they have been hammering well over $5k with $6-6.5k at times. remember that is plus a min of 15%. I would think they should be much higher compared to what the real deal brings. as always good luck with the search.
I don't know the man but will say this, the DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE and CONGRESS both recognized the needs and value of the unlicensed individual even when drafting the 68 gun control act. they allow that an individual can ship a firearm direct to a LICENSEE without obtaining a copy of said license in hand. I cant relate how many of these axxwipes refuse to accept C+R's for legit transactions of them either. when I see the vendor only accepts FFL's that's good enough for me . what the hell do they think a C+R is but an FFL ? had some fun on GB with that one and got tired of the game but did so for quite a bit. I will say this, ATF regs DO REQUIRE the licensee confirms the shipper and as far as I know the only recognized way is via a clear precise copy of a STATE ID or drivers lic and a signature as the shipper. your C+R only wont cut it alone. just too many copies floating. the fact that he wont work with you says it all.
I cant stand for a post to go unanswered but I don't know exactly. my first to OREGON was mid JAN 2020 if that helps? cheers mike
all the above is good straight forward information and I am inclined to agree "almost" with all of it. I get asked these questions a lot and over the years have never had someone come back and chew me out. for years my number one suggestions were 1919-A4 , UZI, and always a Reising for a good balanced start . those superb INLAND A4's were right at $1000.00 in the early 80's. I still feel the 1919 is a good choice but hands down prefer the Vickers at todays prices mainly because of its grace . it has few equals just sitting on a mount with acc. yes the water cool's are tough and don't make sense unless a day is made of it. I know the appeal of the 8mm but all that's OVER! problems are even starting to show up in some of the ROMANIAN now. same with the Russian long caliber. most my CZECH is now splitting the necks , I am fortunate when J+G was selling all the new cased 8mm and 54 ammo for $29.95 a crate I bought several truckloads and cant make a dent in it, but reality for most folks its .308 or 30/06 or reload to shoot a lot . the 19 will be less money to convert but the parts wont last with the VICKER's which run both , but parts harder to find. a young man in NEVADA I helped get started has perfected a low cost VICKER's conversion for both calibers making it much easier. again I must stress there are a LOT of bad builds out there and the 1919 rears its head most often so make sure of the one you choose. anything can be fixed, but why bother unless saving a lot.
these days all the greats are about equal in parts availability, cost etc. while I am a huge fan of both the .30 cal Brownings , nothing comes close to the simple grace of the VICKER's. and 7 million rounds non stop without a single broken part say's it all for reliability. easy caliber changes are in the run, all the history you can stand. the Browning fits in an all US collection and parts are simple while they are both about equal work to set up and use but I still prefer the VICKERS just to fondle and look at. one of the best features of the Vickers is the head space remains set when its taken down for cleaning and service while the brng's must be re-set each time. it uses maxim/pkm belts for the Russian long and they load fast and easy . the pkm loader is one of the easiest in the trade, easy to get and under $250. while simple for 1 person. the brng loader requires major effort and a hand full at best with 2 using it. at first glance the Vickers seems more expensive in spares but only if replacing complete feed blocks or locks. the small parts for them are low in cost.
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YES ! I was surprised to see any approvals processed. but when you think about it, they must be doing them out of boredom. they don't have anything else to talk about. no recent outings, cookouts etc. all the important stuff that prevents actual duty.
THUMP, the number not being in the system is nothing to worry about too much because it wont be entered until it is actually on an examiners desk. when we mail them in, the funds are deposited, the forms forwarded to VA for supervisor review. if they pass, the number is then entered and it hits the pile to wait for all the FBI ok's. I was told once the FBI gives its nod, then the examiner starts the trace in the system to see the forms comply with the originals. if they were mailed 7 months ago, the number might be in the system now and a good idea to check. good luck!
THUMP, as soon as I can sit down with my dealer, I will get ALL the info needed to inform other dealers of the procedure. and yes I also have several old transfers pending. sadly its most likely I hold the record at close to 33 months. that is another one that I plan to resubmit using the new form and electronic data. it is only $47k sitting more than 2 1/2 yrs in another persons safe! and I want to wear it out NOW.
starting in 2011, I went on a buying spree for NFA and bought several from individuals and the major auction houses. some were C+R's and attempted as such, others unknown and many modern. needless to say I had problems with several. I don't have my records here so the dates will be close but not exact. I had C+R's denied and one they claimed a duplicate serial number existed. as a result multiple applications were filed for several transfers. it was stated that refunds would be automatic and all attempts to find out who to contact about them have failed. the duplicate serial no weapon required 4 applications total. most of the denied C+R's required 2 applications but one has 3 and now they want another and is more than 29 months old. in this mess from DICK WRAY I bought a amnesty rgt'd BELGIUM ARMY FALO C+R and the original registrant put "small rifle" as the type because it was not a tripod mounted gun. he did 2 others and entered "heavy" for them. all 3 were in DICKS inventory so it was easy to confirm. ATF denied the transfer completely stating it was not a "machine gun". a total of 5 appeals were made, each one requiring a new application and an additional stamp and the last one was approved. bottom line the ATF owes me a refund for 14 denied applications a total of $2800.00 anyone out there have an idea where I might start? the only answer I get at ATF is "they are automatic and not handled by us" . when I leave a message for a supervisor no one ever calls back
FRANK, thanx for the info. I try to keep these things on record as they happen in order to answer questions. in the middle of all this, I just found out the C+R Grease gun I mailed in the middle of August 2019 was just approved this Tuesday. that's danged close to the same as your 8 months. I don't have my records where I'm at so don't know the exact day it was mailed. I can live with 8 months, but I miss the old days . if you sent a copy of a prior approval with the new application 45 days was on the long end. they keep claiming its the FBI checks but its more than that.
I don't understand why the guys that swore to uphold and defend the constitution and introduce these bills OR support them are not being prosecuted for TREASON AGAINST THE UNITED STATES or at least criminal liable ! if I were impowered to act they would gladly seek the protection of incarceration ! most likely the brainchild of some disgruntled bitch or a spineless male that wants to please one. but seriously this is an open violation of the oath they took when they took office. if not binding, why bother with the ceremony in the first place?
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UPDATE, the following day, another one cleared that used the electronic data transfer. that makes 7 approved since the end of FEB ! SEVERAL board members have contacted me since this thread was started and think I am talking about the standard E-FILE that SOT's and some dealers use. that is not the case this is for individual "non dealers" to transfer using form-4. it requires the mailing of the hard copy form 4 just as we have done in the past using the new form only with the SSN in its proper place. if you have a approved transfer in the past 24 months you can send a copy of that in the package and make it even faster!
MUGSY, IT is not a complete form 4. it is a "shared data" with the original paper form 4. the finger prints are processed electronically . the way I understand it all the info the ATF needs from the FBI , is also transmitted electronically direct to the FBI instead of waiting until the file is opened by the examiner and the request sent, waiting for the response and retrieved etc . the paper trail as it was means the forms wont hit VA for at 3- 4 weeks after it first landed in OREGON. because no human is involved the info is retrieved as fast as it can open. ATF has the ok and all that's left is confirmation the new forms comply with the registry. even if you don't use this, the new forms with the SSN will skip the entire process IF you have had an approval in the last 24 months but the electronic method should be much faster. after filling out the forms, the hardest part was getting to the shop and doing the electronic prints. they must be done in house, but just once. the dealer can keep them on file for any future needs my dealer said EVERYTHING is available for down load at the ATF site. keep in mind, the paper forms are still used and mailed. not sure if its normal to OREGON or direct to VA.
I have never been very versed on all the proper terms for all this paper work and the various FFL's but my local dealer called it an electronic information submission. less than 2 months ago, I filled out 5 of the new form 4's with the space for your SSN. the dealer took "electronic" fingerprints and sent all the information via the net as the hard copies were mailed. other than all the tedious multiple finger print cards he explained it just gets a jump on the FBI CLEARANCE which many claim is the major hang up ? they ALL came back approved TODAY! HOORAH! I still have previous forms on the old forms pending some more than 2 yrs old! all from the same dealer , so its not the examiner (sigh) . I also got notice a 7 month C+R transfer cleared today so soon lots of new toys to dismantle and fondle. what ever its called ,its danged obvious the system works!
looking into my First Transferable Machine gun
in NFA / Semi Forum
Posted
THIS thread is putting my limited ability to remain neutral and only pass the facts to the extreme test. all these toys are great and the joy's unlimited no matter what you choose. if the bug bites after your first choice, its likely you will end up with at least 2 maybe 3 in the herd and that's when it gets really serious but you will be more prepared. my tastes run the same in all things , things need to look and taste like what drew me to them in the first place . muscle cars with auto trans ? not in my garage. WW II mgs with pic rails and AR folding stocks not on my wall. I understand why folks like the LAGE uppers but they are not for me. one of my 60's is an E-6 but I hate to use it, too many sharp edges and things in the way so I only shoot the one in the original configuration. again my personal opinion on that has no place here because you are trying to get started and not shoot your self in the foot with the wrong choice. a new player will choose from 3 main types, subgun , assault rifle, belt fed. now do you want just a shooter in each or a little more . so the 3 types have at least 2 things to consider, the "shooter" will cost less, be easier to find , while the "collectable shooter" will cost more and a harder search. in subguns the M-11/9 is in a class all its own I have 2 but never use them because of the damned magazines! and they will certainly go when I have time to deal with all the emails and pic requests. my number one is a reg'td receiver UZI , next would be the REISING, then a GOOD MAC 10. all the others are good choices for the second subgun. ASSAULT RIFLE ? M-16 ,BM-59,FNC sear, HK-sear. all the .223 guns getting expensive and too close in cost so a HARD search for a deal on a M-16 is well spent these days . I bought 2 NIB BM-59's at auction last year under $10k and deals are still possible. at full retail not in the chase. in belt fed the 1919 if you don't want to mess with a W/C is top dog. if W/C fits, I prefer the Vickers. the past 4 years fantastic deals way under a 17 have been easy and common but at the same money pretty much equal. the units I suggested when clean with good ammo and support equipment will run all day and be tons of fun. at the big shoots, I find it disgusting how much people have to "fiddle" with drop in AR sears, Hk sears not tuned to the gun, stens with bad mags etc. as always there are exceptions to the rule and many manage to stick with it and work things out. but over all solid good examples of systems with proven parts is the way to fly and avoid grief . over the years , many of the new people have so much trouble they don't come back and the guns just sit until finally dumped to someone else. CHEERS!