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Spoke to a helpful NFA specialist on the phone today for 39 minutes and he was able to address every question I had. I learned that I'll be adding a lot of photographs (must be printed hard copies), and memos.
Question #1.) Would the aforementioned N/A designation for multi-caliber apply to HK trigger packs/frames such as DLO and LaFrance?
Yes, designate as N/A for caliber because this a conversion device only that does not have a chamber or barrel.
Question #2.) Regarding a form 1. 4h: Additional Description
This is situational. The ATF agent walked me through the forms that he said it was OK to use additional info on. Everything I entered above for the SBR is to be permitted, and then I wanted additional info for machine guns that would clarify what they are, he told me how to word the entries for 4h and to add memo and photographs.
Question #3.) For field: 4c. Caliber or Gauge
I was recommended to designate calibers as such because the examiners are entering the caliber only and additional data isn't used nor wanted:
9
12
.22
.45
5.56
Question #4.) I'm told that I must pay transfer tax again using form 4 from my current trust to the new trust.
I'm submitting all 24 of my forms on July 12th by mail, so no room for error here. I bet others will have similar concerns so please feel free to use this thread for any last minute pre-41F form question. Here's my contribution: Regarding sears that had multiple calibers designated. The ATF has currently decided, ""We no longer accept multiple calibers and have decided that all sears should be registered as N/A." -source: http://static.hkpro.com/straightgrain/docs/ATF_MultiCal_Current.pdf
My questions:
Question #1.) Would the aforementioned N/A designation for multi-caliber apply to HK trigger packs/frames such as DLO and LaFrance?
Question #2.) Regarding a form 1. 4h: Additional Description (Include all numbers and other identifying data to include maker's name, city and state which will appear on the firearm) (use additional sheet if necessary)
For 4h, I entered:
1.) engraved top of receiver with:
My Trust
Memphis, TN
2.) remarked model from USC to UMP
But I've read on the net that we should now leave 4h blank unless you want your form denied. Is that true? Seems like helpful information that the ATF would want, and would also help LEO validate the SBR. But logical doesn't have any place with ATF from what I've read and they have no set standards and change rules on the fly. So what are the current rules for 4h?
Question #3.) For field: 4c. Caliber or Gauge
Is it true that some ATF agents are denying proper/correct caliber designations? (not for multi caliber, but single designation for various forms):
9mm
12 gauge
.22 LR
300 BLK
.45 ACP
5.56mm
And will only accept lotto numbers at the moment?
9
12
22
30
45
Question #4.) I think I know the answer to this one, but just in case:
I want to change my trust name because the current one is too long and I didn't pick it, my previous gun dealer did. After I create a new trust, must I transfer all the items from my original trust to my new trust by form 4 and pay the stamp taxes all over again? I do in fact want all of NFA items to be on the new trust.
Grats on the sale of your DLO box. So, what did it sell for? Some of us like to track these prices.
2 hours ago, secondofangle said:Im astonished, more and more with each post how a dude who has no NFA items and just began trolling the internet now thinks hes a well versed expert in these matters its amaazing really
I’m the troll? Who’s WTB thread was this? Who’s the one losing his cool and making condescending & derogatory personal attacks against the OP? Who was it that joined sturm and made 15 nihilistic posts confined only to this very thread while dodging/ignoring most/all of the pro-transferable points & questions? Look in the mirror.
I'm admin/owner/founder of a forum that has 4 million posts, a forum that has received more new posts in a day than sturm has total, so I've dealt with a fair share of trolls such as yourself. Hey, I get it. I’m passionate about acquiring transferable machine guns, and you’re overzealous about seeing the transferable machine guns that you covet(ed), but failed to acquire, be reclassified as post-samples. –source
QuoteAlso, why the rush for 41F?. If you currently have no items on a blank trust, there is no point to submit prior to 7/13 unless you goofed and listed a bunch if trustees in the origignal trust.
Will submitting under 41F require my fingerprints, photographs, and mandatory CLEO notifications? If so, then there’s a compelling motive to have a gun trust grandfathered under the current regulations before 41F. You can learn more about this here.
Anyways, I'm done feeding the troll. I'll report back in this thread when I hear something definitive.
Quoteand where on earth did you get this cockamamie idea that ATF "researches" these weapons during f4 approval?. AYFKM?. Seriously, why do you think a F4 approval entails research or in any legitimizes a weapon?
I suppose the fact that everyone says that the ATF puts the most emphasis on serial numbers. That the ATF is requesting photographs of machine guns as part of the transfer approval process. The fact that the ATF is being so thorough right now and how they are scrubbing everything. The fact that the ATF is spending 3 months on form 3s and half a year on form 4s, also gave me the impression that they must be doing more than mere stamp licking. Enlighten us then. If the firearm's serials, firearm's photographs, firearm's transfer forms, and extraordinary amounts of time and resources are not being utilized to review the firearm being transferred, then what do you propose that all of this is being used for?
QuoteI spoke with Colt Archives in January. Unlike with their pistols, where you can pay $100 for a letter from their archives, you CANNOT get a letter for a MG. They just wont do it. Show me one and prove me wrong
Not sure why you are bringing up Colt's archival department, you could have spared yourself and Colt a phone call by reading their FAQ:
-source: http://www.colt.com/Customer-Services/Archive-Services
QuoteAnd you have me confused. Several posts up youre talking about not caring if prices go up you just wanted the M4E. Now were hearing all this jazz about a bideo game collection you so sagely invested in and sold after a large appreciation. So which is it?. Is this a coveted toy or an investment?
Must I play by your rules and choose whether each gun I buy is to remain exclusively a range toy and which is to remain exclusively an investment? I was under the impression that a transferable machine gun could be both. Regardless, you're taking what I've said out of context. I said that I'd be OK with the ATF rendering this gun a keeper vs. forcing me to sell as a $1500 post-sample (and where are people finding dealer sample Colt M4 Commando Enhanced for $1500 btw? Or any at all for that matter?). I also explained how I felt about values here. But if you must know, here's my plans at the moment (always subject to change though):
Transferable Colt M4 Commando Enhanced = safe queen
NIB Colt LE6933 rollmarked M4LE = potential range toy
QuoteAre you familiar with the cases where a SN from one gun was welded to another and approved - and later confiscated?
You're really shooting in the dark here. Your example isn't remotely related. This transferable isn't suspect of being a clone or remark, pre-ban serials weren't welded onto a post-sample, and everyone who has seen pictures of this gun is unequivocally convinced that this was a factory original build by Colt.
QuoteOf course the SN was registered prior to /5/19/86 And of course colt can list a final build date when it was assembled The issue remains whether it was built on a receiver that was serial numbered in 1986 or on a post 86 receiver rolled with that SN the same time it was rolled with m4 enhanced.
Colt has far more information on file than just the model and final assembly date, but you have to call for that information. The first person I spoke with told me freely exactly what this firearm was with more detailed info, but obviously he couldn't tell me what day the individual components were manufactured and marked. I don't have all of the answers, but fortunately you seem to have them all. Please explain how one proves that a receiver was serialized in the year of 1986. Photos with a newspaper? Carbon dating? Those methods are flawed and easily forged. Concluding that a certain receiver wasn't available in year x? Couldn't said receiver have been modified? Couldn't said receiver have existed in 1986 as a prototype? Wouldn't devil's advocate work both ways for virtually any situation?
Keep in mind that I'm trying to complete my stamp collection before 41F and the fact that these exotic variants all sold within days, not a single one sat available for so much as a week. It's a bit unrealistic to say that the prudent/experienced/patient/frugal/elderly buyer (I'm just inverting what you labeled me as) would 1st write to the ATF Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division, then wait at least 90 days for their response, before finally committing to a purchase. Such a character would have missed the boat completely and is the type of investor that should stick exclusively to his safe place in government bonds.
Unfortunately, the ATF Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division won't answer questions by phone or email to civilians. They will only accept written submissions submitted by letter format via snail mail. Their response time is approximately 90 days, by US mail. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-and-ammunition-technology
Alternatively, I could contact my local ATF branch and see where that leads, most likely back to the Tech division tho: https://www.atf.gov/nashville-field-division
Sure, I'll send the Tech division a letter over the weekend along with a URL to photos of the firearm, a URL to a scan of the form 3, a URL to Colt's website for serial # lookup, and a URL to this thread. Crazy that they don't recognize email in the year 2016, sure makes things cumbersome and inefficient, but that's the crux of this government regulation after all. Or, I suppose I could make them a webpage. To communicate with the insurance adjuster for my last insurance claim, I responded by submitting this webpage: goo.gl/BpUXBV
Would that work with the ATF? Just send them a postcard with a URL and trust that they can manually type the URL correctly into a web browser? Then again, isn't this nothing more than guiding their nose to the Colt website to run the serial to see for themselves that the form 3 indeed matches the firearm: a full-auto M4 Commando Enhanced with 4 position selector model R0938 M4/M16A4 Commando HBAR 11.5" HBAR built 1998
I hear what you guys keep saying, that guns such as these can't possibly exist as transferable and that ATF approvals on machine gun transfers mean absolutely nothing. So are you assuming that the ATF never bothers to run a check on the serials for these machine guns, unless they are specifically requested to do so? If that's true, wouldn't that make the ATF the most incompetent government agency in the history of the world? Is it realistic to expect the ATF to completely skip a serial check for 4 consecutive transfers within a 1 year time-frame for this particular machine gun, and to also skip serial checks for all of the other recent machine guns transfers of this ilk too? Is anyone hearing me?
As a reminder, a simple/fast/instant check on the serials with Colt MFG returns a full-auto M4 Commando Enhanced with 4 position selector model R0938 M4/M16A4 Commando HBAR 11.5" HBAR built 1998. If it takes you more than 30 seconds to pull a report on the serials from Colt's website, then you're doing something terribly wrong. I'm saying its absolutely impossible for the ATF to not know exactly what they are approving as transferable in the case of this M4 Commando Enhanced. Unless of course its as most (all?) of you are inadvertently insinuating, that the ATF is nothing more than a herd of mindless stamp lickers that drag their feet on all fours for umpteen months before they commence with their inevitable stamp licking.
I also plan to submit a FOIA request so that I can have a cross check of the full provenance/history of ownership, but must wait until the form 4 clears, perhaps sometime in 2017.
I'll admit that I'm among the least experienced when it comes to this machine gun hobby. To start fresh, I sold off my entire gun collection earlier this year on GB in that bundled listing. Not that this matters from a collecting/investing standpoint, but I've never held an M16/M4/AR15 in my life, at best, I've seen one from a few feet away in a gun store. Last shot a gun 8 or so years ago, it was a friend's F/A transferable M10. I don't plan to shoot a gun until sometime in 2017 after this batch of 24 transfers is stamped and approved by the ATF. My first machine gun purchase closed February of 2016 and I have much to learn and little time remaining to add to my stamp collection; see my signature:
 |
Diligently completing my NFA stamp collection before 41F goes into effect. |
However, I'm not new to the concept of buying rare & expensive collectibles. My strategy is very simple, but its proven to be most rewarding. For the best returns, buy the rarest and most valuable example that you can find in the best condition that you can afford. That's it, if you can do that, you win! Or so my track record has proven. Example, I bought the world's most expensive MTG card in 2008 for $13k and sold it in 2015 in a bundle deal for $169.2k to a buyer in Dubai, UAE. I sold a pair of Neo-Geo video game cartridges for $55k in 2009 that I had purchased for < $1k in 2000, see the CNN article, section 8. I'm still sitting on and expanding upon collections that would be considered the top 1% of the 1% for these genres. The most recent interview request related to a collectible hobby that I'm involved in was received on Fri 6/17/2016 1:26 AM and will be printed in both English and Spanish. For some past interview scans from magazines, scroll to the bottom: http://www.neostore.com/aboutus.asp
I'm under no delusion that machine guns will magically out-perform any of the other collectible asset classes that I dabble in, and that's why I plan to limit my exposure to machine guns over the purchasing of months, instead of years. For machine guns are limited to the US market, to the male gender, that are free of felonies and are either citizens or legal permanent resident aliens, that also reside within free states. Which is why all the other hobbies I'm involved in (including art, coins, comics, & baseball cards) have seen phenomenal returns compared to the relatively stagnant machine gun prices, i.e., stagnant relative to prized collectible assets that aren't limited to subsets of the US market. The average price of rare neo games has literally doubled over just the past 4 months, yet it will probably take our machine guns many years to see their next x2 in appreciation. The retail price of an Alpha starter deck from MTG was $7.95 in 1993, today they insta-sell for $10,000.00 each, that's a multiple of 1,258x. So if you get that time machine ticket, it's not machine guns or bullion that you'll want to stockpile, not even close.
@secondofangle: Thanks for the advice to contact the Tech division. Try that I will. And no, I didn't hire an attorney to advise me on any of my purchases. Common sense tells us that if there was so much as a hint of risk, an attorney would have told me to walk away just to cover his own arse (as witnessed in your case). Besides, wouldn't you rather secure the collectible while its available instead of missing out? You can always earn the money back, but may never have that opportunity to obtain your unicorn of unicorns again. Same applies to original artworks. Yes, there's risk that it could be a forgery, so we perform our due diligence until we feel secure enough to close a deal. With machine guns, we have a government agency investing months of research into approving these transfers (and we are assuming that they aren't ignoring the serials), a layer of assurance that doesn't exist with the other collectibles. And once these reach the hands of the upper crust, they won't surface again until there's a private estate sale that's limited to the syndicate (a ring of machine gun dealers that sell predominantly to the affluent & well connected).
Thanks for the many leads and to those who reached out to me directly. I went with AutoWeapons.com
I've already realized that I'm not going to stop at 41F either, there's going to be new suppressors, SBRs, host guns, and looks like that RDIAS may not surface on form 3 until after 41F too. My MK-9Ks haven't cleared the form 3s to my local SOT yet, but I like its looks, size/volume, and like what I've read about it (allegedly having the best tone). As a company, I despise Gemetch's customer service. Lots of empty promises without any follow thu. I know they went thru some ownership changes, but its still frustrating. I passed up many MK-9Ks because Gemtech kept leading me on with a just around the corner order that never materialized.
Ya, I could get the readily available Colt LE6933 rollmarked M4 Carbine that you linked, yet I'm paying twice the price to obtain the same model but with what I consider to be the more desirable rollmarks. That and I've read that the new builds from Colt are all low quality junk these days compared to their vintage builds of yesteryear.
I see, no problem. Hope you find that Gemtech MK-9K from someone within Florida, but you still have time if you find one on a form 3 to go on your trust, and you have a local SOT willing to file your form 4 prematurely. I had a tough time finding the MK-9K nationwide though, they are sold out everywhere and Gemtech only produces them in tiny trickles. I finally was referred to a dealer who had two new units in stock (made this year with black packaging) on form 3s and bought them both. Thanks for your lead on the Colt LE6933 factory SBR rollmarked M4LE, that's to be my shooter, and the gun in this thread to be a safe queen. I ended up having multiple sources to choose from for this exact SBR, and Autoweapons.com was actually the lowest price.
Come on now, surely you're just being facetious.
22 hours ago, Neo said:I'm in $70k for this unfired transferable Colt M4 Commando Enhanced
Anyways, I called Colt for detailed information on the serial # of this gun, and their records return a full-auto M4 Commando Enhanced with 4 position selector model R0938 M4/M16A4 Commando HBAR 11.5" HBAR built 1998. According to Colt's firearm logs, this would be the highest model #, the absolute latest and greatest Commando that they had ever manufactured. In chronological order:
R0609 XM177E1 Commando (US Army) 11.5" barrel
R0619 XM177E1 Export Carbine 11.5" barrel
R0629 XM177E2 SMG US Army 11.5" barrel
R0639 XM177E2 Export Model 11.5" barrel
R0640 M16 SMG 11.5" barrel
R0733 M16A2 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0734A M16A2 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0734 M16A2 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0735 M16A2 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0735B M16A2 Commando - Brazil 11.5 A1 barrel
R0737 M16A2 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0738 Enhanced Carbine 11.5" A1 barrel
R0780 M16A3 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0933 M16A4 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0933CQB M4 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0935G M16A4 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0935 M16A4 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
*R0938 M4/M16A4 Commando HBAR 11.5" HBAR
This wasn't a simple switch of preban M16A2 serials being engraved onto a post sample, this serial is indeed registered with the ATF as a transferable machine gun and it was used to build this very gun, somehow. Perhaps its exactly as TargetMaster, among others, has been saying all along, "This is 100% original Colt factory gun. The serial # was registered prior to making this gun so that is how it is transferable with the modern receiver."
Regardless, the ATF will take the next 3+ months to verify all of this on their end, again, before approving the next form 3 transfer to my local SOT, and I hope they take plenty of close-up pictures for their records. Not that they would need pictures though, since any ATF agent with 30 seconds of time investiture would verify the full details/specs/make/model/year of this machine gun with Colt's records via the serial #. The ATF will only approve a transfer on what they deem to be a legitimately transferable machine gun, for that's what they're spending all those months doing. Seriously, if an ATF agent allocated just 30 seconds out of the upcoming months, he could once again verify exactly what this machine gun is thru Colt's website. Though I would expect the ATF to have far more efficient resources for researching firearm serials than a normal Joe citizen such as myself has at his disposal (copying and pasting serials into a manufacturer's website and clicking submit sure can be tedious).
And remember, the ATF is well aware of the all of those other transferable but modernized Colts that have been and will be transferring, as their serials should match Colt's records the same as mine has, for these all stem from the same collection. Is there any logical reason why the ATF would repeatedly review these machine guns via numerous and consecutive form submissions, and always approve their transfers... by mistake? Even a 1st day ATF agent should catch what this machine gun is right away. I know this gun already had two transfers over the last year, and it has another two to go, so no way could the ATF not run this serial. Ergo, they must know many times over exactly what this machine gun is, why it's classified as transferable, and why they continue approving its transfer.
Includes box, manual, shipping, & same day form 3 submission (hey, same day submission is paramount this close to 41F and sure beats the 100+ day wait that I endured for my 1st machine gun purchase, which I chronicled in this 1st post). I was told it was held near and dear and wasn't for sale, but was offered a M16A2 or XM4 instead. I persisted, owner said it wasn't for sale unless it was for stupid money. After a full week of contemplation by the seller, my initial offer was accepted. I'm just glad that I didn't insult anyone. With the RDIAS (no host) for sale by a fellow sturm member based in TN, I offered him $30k initially (only because the highest known asking price that I was aware of was $30k, and that steel RDIAS sold for $24k w/ $1.5k host as revealed here, but that was 2 months ago), then I offered $35k (to surpass Frank's Guns past GB listing of $34k that I was informed of), then $40k just because. I was told that I wasn't even ballpark and it would be a waste of time speaking with me about it further, yet he goes on to explain how disappointed he is and how I'm wasting his time by replying to me with 4 paragraphs along with a copy of his form 4, just to rub it in I'm assuming, but still no counter offer. Basically this sturm based RDIAS owner that approached me wasn't a seller, he was just pulling out his museum piece for show and tease.
I wouldn’t say I don’t care about ever selling at any price. I'm in $70k for this unfired transferable Colt M4 Commando Enhanced, but I'm willing to take the risk, just as there is a degree of risk with owning any of these Federally regulated weapons, but I'd obviously rather not be singled out and thrown under the bus by the ATF. We know that there were many other transferable Colt variants of controversially ambiguous origin (i.e., ambiguous from the public's uninformed perspective) that surfaced in recent months, and they all sold ultra-fast at record prices. So it's not as if I’m taking some giant leap of faith alone. For now, it appears that I was last to jump, for I'm not seeing any other Enhanced/Commando/XM4/M4A1/M4 class rarities out there, but my delay was due to the strict specificity of the transferable that I sought. I thought to myself, if I could have ANY combination Colt machine gun, it would be a transferable Colt M4 Commando Enhanced, hence my WTB ad, and I feel fortunate to have had this opportunity to find exactly that and in perfect unfired condition. Get this, I honestly had absolutely no internet proof or even so much as a 2nd hand whisper of this particular combination having existed as transferable, but I tossed a WTB line out there just in case! Regarding that autoweapons link in my OP, when I asked if they had any Colt M4 Commando Enhanced transferables in stock, I was told, “This was a post 86 dealer sample. We sold it a long time ago and been off our site for years.”
Yes, it will be interesting to watch the market from here over the coming decades.
Too late for gun trust? The seller of this unfired transferable Colt M4 Commando Enhanced was PayPal'd in paid in full this morning by a single transfer and said he'd be submitting the form 3 today. Yet you say it’s too late for form 3 purchases to go my trust. Are we sure about that? I still have items on my wish list, but if it’s too late, there's no reason for me to continue this buying frenzy. My local SOT is willing to file the form 4s from him to me before the form 3s are approved, and I'm waiting until as late as July 11th before mailing off a batch of 25+ form 4s along with the $5k stamp tax payment. I've been deliberately postponing any form 4 submissions so that I can buy more time with the ATF by contributing to their workload in one large batch. Considering that the ATF will experience a record flood of submissions from us during this period, we should also experience record wait times, and it could be many months before the ATF begins processing my packet of submissions. By then, all of the form 3s would have cleared. That's my plan at least. Am I mistaken?
Then there’s this Silencer Shop's 41F Guarantee:
“If you purchase a in-stock silencer by July 6th and give us a copy of your trust and information by July 8th then we guarantee that you will make the July 13th deadline. We are so confidant in this that we will give you $100 if it isn't to the ATF by the deadline.”
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/silencer-shop/236475-silencer-shop-41f-guarantee.html
About Ruben Mendiola's excellent/used A2 Commando for $35k, isn't that just an 11.5" upper swapped in? It doesn't have the Commando rollmark. I suppose it depends on the approved form, whether it says 11.5" or the typical 20" barrel length that most M16s are registered as, but it seems that many, including myself, also value the correct rollmarks at a premium in addition to the matching paper.
http://dealernfa.com/shop/colt-m16a2-commando-excellent-8002504/
Its hard to tell what those dealers are selling when they are using thumbnail sized stock photos and don't specify the actual rollmarks. I'm looking for the M4LE marked lower, not the latest generation M4 Carbine marked. I've read that the M4LE rollmark, as seen in my original post, was discontinued by Colt 2 or more years ago. So, I'd be willing to pay a premium over the links you provided, to insure the rollmarks that I'm after.
Needs to be on form 3 if outside of Tennessee. Preferably NIB, preowned and lightly used OK if not a scratch and dent.
Technically, M4 Enhanced would be the WRONG model for that was neither the model that I was after nor bought. This gun started as a Commando and has remained a Commando. Alas, whatever we think is correct has absolutely no bearing, only what the ATF deems correct is what matters. So lets explore that...
Here's a fellow with a Colt model LE6933 'Commando', it's rollmaked M4LE on the lower, and yet his approved and stamped form 4 says AR-15 for the model. What what?! Using your logic, this patsy is just 1 call away from the inevitable swat team seizure...
Another fine example would be the 3 transferable LaFrance HK trigger packs that I had recently purchased. They are all the exact same frames by the same manufacturer with same style engravings/markings (logo and serials) without any discernible differentiation beyond the serials. No hosts/guns included with these 3 transfers, just F/A trigger packs.
Yet on the 3 corresponding approved and stamped forms, one is designated as model MP5L, 2nd as G33L, and the 3rd as G3L. So which is the correct model?
*Answer: All of them, in the eyes of the ATF.
Thanks for the opinions, and I'm convinced that you guys have my best interest in mind, but I really want this gun and my offer was accepted by the owner for the exact gun in my thread title, a transferable Colt M4 Commando Enhanced. For my piece of mind, the approved form 3 does perfectly match the manufacturer's name & location to the letter on the rifle, the barrel length of 11.5" (Commando), and the overall length of 30.59" (Commando), as well as serials of course. Caliber on form says .223 and rifle says 5.56, but even Colt calls their current M4 Commando caliber: 5.56x45 NATO (.223 Rem.). I assume this is because it can use either caliber ammo: http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Law-Enforcement/Products/Colt-M4-Commando#97715-technical-specifications
I wasn't aware of this Stemple RIA M-60 case, but I'm told that Stemple used serial numbers from other pre-1986 transferable weapons and simply put his manufacturer info on guns he didn't build, after 1986, which is not the same situation with these Colts. Regardless, having a keeper beats having it confiscated, and being able to keep a post sample permanently as an unlicensed civilian is still a win in my book. And when I die, these heirlooms go to my heirs, since everything is going on a pre-41F trust.
Back to how these can exist, no one doubt's that these serials were registered before the '86 ban, and we've already established that the manufacturer could destroy the original to have a new model built, prior to the Gemtech ruling (circa 2006?). Then there's the situation where the manufacturer registered serials before the ban, engraved serials onto a hunk of metal, but never finished the build. I spoke to Tim LaFrance of LaFrance Specialties on the phone earlier this year and he told me that he had 3 such machine gun serials registered, but hadn't got around to finishing those builds yet, and said he may not even get around to finishing them during his lifetime. Who knows how many other registered serials with unfinished builds remain out there, and perhaps some unfinished builds still remain(ed) with Colt. Because of these various permitted loopholes, we could very well see a transferable 40W phased plasma pulse rifle, or whatever future equivalent, pop up on subguns or sturm in the year 2035. I bet that will raise some eyebrows then too, but rest assured, we can count on the ATF to approve it's next transfer stamp, for they're not going to say no to additional tax revenues.
The Colt M4 Commando Enhanced that I'm buying will have to go thru 2 additional transfers, a form 3 to my local SOT, then a form 4 from my local dealer to me. It already went thru 2 transfers before me, so that's > a year of cumulative research to determine if this gun is a transferable or a post sample. In the most unlikely event that they change their minds and want to classify it as a post sample before the next two transfers are approved, then it wasn't meant to be. If years after these 4 approvals they decide it's a keeper but no longer transferable, that's something I'd be content with, more so than not having this grail. And there will ALWAYS be a risk of gun confiscations, mandatory buy-backs, and future irrational/illogical decisions by big brother. Next on the menu is a reban on assault rifles; they'll probably end up joining the NFA registry to be regulated (more tax revenues).
Its not just limited to guns though, big brother can take most anything they want, from whomever, whenever, "Last Friday evening, President Obama signed an Executive Order giving him the power to implement martial law in the US. The National Defense Resources Preparedness Executive Order will give Obama the power to seize the countries resources in a time of crisis or peace. This includes resources ranging from livestock to sources of energy and water."
http://www.infowars.com/alex-jones-obamas-executive-order-facilitates-martial-law/
At least with these registered, regulated, and taxed transferables (up to two taxes per sale), they have a strong motive to keep them in circulation. If anything, I'd expect an increase in the tax stamp, a stamp price that hasn't changed since 1934 ($200.00 in 1934 had about the same buying power as $3,583.71 in 2016). More on this: https://firemountainoutdoors.wordpress.com/2014/01/01/the-200-atf-tax-stamp-racket-its-stupid-but-its-cheap-and-now-may-be-your-time-to-buy-one/
To the mods, I'm requesting that we leave this thread open as a source of any additional information/opinions. It's extremely informative to have this open discussion on this modernized forum in place of the temporary post-it-note board of the past. Decades from now, enthusiasts should be able to reference this thread to help further their knowledge on such obscure transferables.
These transferable modernized variants that people are saying shouldn't exist, do exist, and they insta-sell for crazy amounts. I'm assuming that the smart money knows what its doing, or these super-prime investors wouldn't be snatching these up as fast as they had appeared. I've spoken to multiple sources, and there's a backstory here as to how these recent examples exist and who they belonged to. If one had the supporting paper trail and provenance, along with the ATF's numerous blessings (stamped approvals), such would give me the confidence needed to be an owner.
One of the ways these have come to exist as explained in 2014: "I'm aware of very small number of original transferable Colt M16A1s that went back to Colt, sometime in the early 90s, and were "rebuilt" into modern style receivers using the exact same serial numbers but with all the A2 upgrades and modern black anodizing. This is one of the models Robb J. is talking about above. Yes, this process isn't "ATF legal" anymore and these Colts always stir the pot when they come up for sale with guys screaming about their legality, but somehow these made it through the NFA process back then and they have continued to change hands over the years. You'll see one every now and then up on Sturm/Subguns or at KCR." -source: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?151687-Pre-1986-Transferable-Colt-M16A2-(RO901)-Eye-Candy-and-Question&p=1905538#post1905538
And more recently (the thread this post is in is quite informative): "IIRC, there was a short amount of time in which Colt would take your registered M16 and "rebuild" (destroy and make a new one with the same serial#) it as an M4. It would thus be a registered M4 machine gun. The ATF has since stopped this practice, but there are more than a few transferable Colt M4s due to this." -source: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?178331-Has-anyone-ever-seen-a-transferable-NFATR-registered-Colt-M16-rollmarked&p=2239152#post2239152
Great price! This shouldn't last long. Would have to be on form 3s or form 4 in TN for me tho. Lucky buyer whomever you are.
Both pistols still available. Lowered pricing of option #2 from $6950 to $6200. Added a few new pictures upon request:
Gotcha, so its like settling for an HK S&H vs the heat treated Fleming or Qualified sears. The stigma is even more pronounced with the aluminum vs steel RDIAS though, and I suppose that has pushed me to the steelist bandwagon. Thanks for advice, but I'm holding out for steel. Saw this aluminum listing shortly after it was posted and didn't give it a consideration, it was also on an out of state form 4 though.
Option # 3 sold & shipped thru GB. Option # 1 & 2 still available.
Yar, no regrets on the M4 Enhanced I suppose, for the M4 Commando Enhanced is more desirable IMO. About that untouched/unfired NIB XM4 proto, it may have been an inside hook & crook job by the former Colt employee, but at least it had the pedigree to pass off as legit.
1983-1986: US Property marked M16A2 & US Property marked XM4 prototypes Colt's Model 720.
-source: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/241681_.html
No longer looking for just a Billistics RDIAS, any steel RDIAS will do. A scammer contacted me thru subguns from the email of (Cook shell, paullannacook51@gmail.com) poorly posing as Steven Gilbert. Scammer didn't even bother to register a more plausible email, couldn't provide any forum account, eBay, GB account references, and dodged the phone. I asked for a pic of the RDIAS with its serial facing the camera, lying next his his driver license, with all resting on top of the matching form 3, and he sends me this today:
Notice how the shadow of the RDIAS does not cast over the corner of the floating, lower resolution, and obviously cropped DL picture. This attempt reminds me of something as silly as this official NASA video of the moon floating past the Earth:
Official NASA video, “This animation features actual satellite images of the far side of the moon, illuminated by the sun, as it crosses between the DSCOVR spacecraft's Earth Polychromatic Imaging Camera (EPIC) and telescope, and the Earth - one million miles away.”
Naturally, NASA must disable comments for the video. But how can anyone think this is real? That’s a time lapse yet the weather/clouds never change, moon doesn’t rotate to continue facing earth. All surfaces are fully illuminated. Wouldn’t the moon cast a massive shadow on the Earth? Stars anyone?
The seller, targetmaster, said, "This is 100% original Colt factory gun. The serial # was registered prior to making this gun so that is how it is transferable with the modern receiver."
12 hours ago I offered to buy both his M4 Enhanced + XM4 but wanted more proof on the M4 Enhanced such as form 3. The seller just informed me that they have both sold for his full asking price of $99,990.00 ($49,995.00 each). The form 3 was never revealed to me.
(Was WTB) transferable Colt M4 Commando Enhanced
in NFA / Semi Forum
Posted · Edited by Neo
Rejoice and be merry, for I bring wonderful tidings! I have communicated with an extremely knowledgeable specialist at the NFA branch and explained that I purchased a transferable full-auto Colt M4 Commando Enhanced with 4 position selector built 1998. I also explained how the general consensus from NFA dealers & collectors is to unanimously condemn this firearm as a mistake, how there's no way this could be transferable, and how this gun is a phone call away from the inevitable swat team confiscation.
The agent was already familiar and well informed of the situation with Colt's modernized machine guns that exist as transferables. He gave me 39 minutes of his time by phone and confirmed much if not all of what I had already been led to believe. The agent assured me that I needn't worry about this gun being reclassified as post-sample or being confiscated since the serials were registered prior to May 1986. He went on to say that Colt did indeed enhance and remark some of their transferables and how never to take apart the 4-pos because of the complexity (this agent was very much a gun guy). He said that the ATF isn't out there to take our guns away and that the blogs (implying forums) out there are almost always 100% WRONG in their assumptions.
I had also emailed him (and another ATF specialist) the original high resolution pictures that the seller/dealer provided me with, a link to this thread, along with the form 3 and soon to be filed form 4 for review. I was given the OK to update field 4.d. Model to the correct full model name of M4 Commando Enhanced, and to update the caliber to 5.56 so that ALL of section 4 (Description of the Firearm) will match this firearm perfectly. The ATF will also update their records on this firearm to reflect what it currently is. I was instructed to include printed photographs along with a memo for the examiner and to instruct the examiner to contact this specialist if there are any concerns.
I'm told to expect an email including a ‘party line paragraph’ that will more thoroughly and officially explain the ATFs approval/acceptance of these modernized Colt builds with pre-ban serials. If I'm allowed to share this ‘party line paragraph’ publicly, I'll do so.
Rest assured, the following definitive facts are now confirmed on behalf of the BATF NFA branch that these are:
I agreed not to share the agent's name or email publicly. However, if you are a fellow owner, you can contact me by PM and I will point you towards the correct NFA specialist to verify these findings on your end. Thanks for leading me to the NFA branch and big congratulations to the other buyers out there who secured the handful of other modernized and transferable factory original Colt rarities that had insta sold.