Will Values of M16s plummet in light of the Forced Reset Triggers not Being Treated as Machine Guns?

[Greasegunner]

 

 

On ATF.Gov, ATF had posted a process that triggers that they seized or received by surrendering them can be returned if so requested.

These were previously determined to be post 86 machineguns. The lawsuit was brought by Rare breed Triggers and National Association for

Gun Rights. The plaintiffs won and ATF appealed and a final decision will be forthcoming. 

 

The Good News is the return of the triggers. When has ATF returned anything they considered an illegal Machine Gun?

 

These triggers will increase the rate of fire to 750 to 900 rpm depending on barrel length and Buffer weight.

This is the same as M16 specs. 

 

Who will spend 50-60 Thousand for a Pre86 M16 when they can have the same performance for under $1000 ??

Not me ! I will get a good AR rifle and install my $150 trigger and not putting wear and tear on a 50K gun!!

 

Time will tell

[D Edwards]

i don't believe it. this will not effect m16 prices much, if any, at all. most guys want an authentic m16, not some cobbled together variant.

[MPFiveO]

Some clarification is needed. First, the order to return the triggers to their owners only covers owners in one of the protected groups like GOA. It is not an all encompassing order. People who are not in one of the groups will not get their trigger back unless the courts grant such relief.

 

Second, unless the 1934 NFA is repealed in it's entirety, the value of a registered transferable M16 isn't going to plummet. And even then, if it were repealed, it's unlikely to have a huge effect on the factory Colt guns that were made between 40 and 60 years ago because those will never be made again. Any new clone of those will be just that, a clone.

 

Here's an example. You can go to a gun shop today and buy any of several AR brands that are at or under $400. But if you want a genuine vintage Colt SP1 then they sell regularly on the Broker for $1600. And if you want one made in the first few years of production those go for $3000 or more. So, just like it will never be 1965 again, it will never be 1985 again. Look at a calendar and circle today's date and write "you are here"

 

The FRT triggers are one of the best gimmicks to ever come out. I say gimmick because it's not really full auto, anymore than the Hellfire trigger device of the 80's makes a gun shoot full auto. Both can achieve the same rate of fire as a full auto with a little practice, but at the end of the day it's just another way around the 1986 ban on fun. It's all bump firing repackaged.

 

Someone wanting an authentic Colt M16 will shell out the dough. These buyers are generally of a different generation though. The younger YouTube generation will be happy with their PSA clone and their FRT or Super Safety triggers because they're almost full auto and that's good enough.

 

Oh, and inquiring minds want to know, where can you get FRT triggers for $150???????? That's nowhere near MSRP.

[Chef]

I don't believe the prices on transferable FA M16s will be affected in the slightest.

The people who buy real FA M16s aren't in the same demographic as the customers for the FRT.

I consider myself fairly typical of the demographic of people who wanted (and now own) a M16, and I won't be selling it and getting a FRT.
Playing in the world of transferable FA isn't cheap. Most people who have a M16 can afford to keep it, and most people seriously considering buying one either have the funds to buy one, or are able to save up to buy one.

FRTs appeal to a less affluent and younger demographic. Or to people who aren't "that into" FA enough to prioritize the purchase of one instead of a new Silverado or motorcycle.

The same people who buy a MAC with all the lage stuff are the same people who will buy a FRT.
The guy who has a factory Colt M16 isn't going to be looking to offload it and replace it with a FRT and a S&W MP15 to stuff it into.
 

[pinball-1]

I guess I'm in the group of people who won't spend that amount on a transferable M16 because of the other options (binary trigger is enough to replicate it for me).

Will it drop prices? No. Might they stay more stagnant than other MGs? Possibly.

I do own several MGs, just can't get myself to spend 25k+ on an M16 when a $500 trigger is enough to mag dump into a pile of trash.

[NickFromAK]

Why buy a mixmaster M16 when you can get an FRT that will work in any AR with the proper tuning? The collector grade rifles will still continue on their trajectory while the shooter grade will probably stagnate. There will still be that crowd who buy and sell transferables to each other at progressively higher prices. They really don’t like or care about firearms and see them just as an investment. However, shooters and actual gun people will drop out of the M16 market.

[Abbey]

I don't believe it will impact Colt prices much, but maybe will reduce some of the shooter-grade (i.e., beater) AR conversions a bit. I bought a Colt M16A1 last year and one of the reasons I spent a bit more for a Colt was the inherent value. FRTs are great if you just want a toy to shoot in the desert but I wanted something with some inherent value (that also is a fun toy to shoot in the desert).

[3rdmardiv]

M16 will possibly be an investment and owning a piece of history is important to me.

[Got Uzi]

Well that term “investment” is the whole reason this stuff costs what it does these days. At some point those people who have driven the prices sky high will get bored or lose money and they they will dump stuff on the market. 
 

I see original M16’s holding their own but conversion guns have no real value other than shooters. Let’s face it-decide how much you are willing to spend for a shooter and consider it the cost of enjoyment. Leave the “investment” out of it and enjoy it for what it is. 

[Uncle Zeek]

Y'all can put me in the category of "saving up for a real M16".  Even though I have a post-sample M16 that I can shoot all I want, I still would like to acquire a genuine transferable M16, whether a Colt, Olympic Arms, etc.  Devices like FRTs, bump stocks and the like are interesting range toys, but I don't view them as a substitute for a genuine full auto.

Congress still has the authority to pass a new law defining FRT's as machine guns as well . . . the issue here was ATF overreach.  They can only execute the laws, not write new ones.

So as long as there's knuckleheads like me out there, prices on transferable M16's probably aren't going to nosedive.

 

Edited February 23, 2025 by Uncle Zeek

[Don.]

I have both and enjoy them equally.  The transferables will only have a significant drop if the Hughes amendment goes away.  Don’t hold your breath on that one.  The FRTs can go away again also.  We’re just an election away from that.

[johnsonlmg41]

16 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

Well that term “investment” is the whole reason this stuff costs what it does these days. At some point those people who have driven the prices sky high will get bored or lose money and they they will dump stuff on the market. 
 

 

That is not at all how investors operate.  Prices will overall continue to climb.  An FRT is nowhere near an M16 in terms of performance etc.  The reality is there are less than 186K transferable guns and until that changes prices overall will continue to rise regardless of the gadgets (which are indeed innovative) that come out.   

I just came back from the carribean and the number of gigantic yachts, expensive real estate, and exotic stuff continues to explode with long waiting lists for these items as they are investments as well.  As the rest of the world closes down collectible firearms, those folks will/ are migrating their money here.  The entire transferable market value is less than 5 billion, which is chump change for thousands of people.  All it takes is one to corner the entire market. 

If you're young and don't get out much your view may be skewed a bit? 

[Got Uzi]

I’ve been seeing more and more people buying NFA to “hide money” or use it as an “investment” which drives the prices of the really nice stuff higher, which in turn causes the lower tier “shooter guns” higher.  It’s a vicious circle and at some point the market won’t be able to sustain itself. Look at the classic car market, what was not, now is not and the prices show it. Collectible “investment ____” (insert type) has gone in waves-cars, antique farm engines, tractors, guns, furniture, and so on have all suffered from people wanting to buy up stuff to hedge their investment portfolio and they really don’t care about the stuff over all. It’s just a way to tie up money and have “cool stuff” I’ve gotten out a lot more than you may think and have seen it happen several times in my life. All it takes to crash these “investments” is a bad economic down turn.

[NickFromAK]

I’d be hard pressed to say that transferables are not in a bubble right now. Over the long term they will increase in value, but I believe we are in an artificial high. The “investors” in comfortable positions will never sell below a profit and will happily hold onto what they have for years. That being said, the gun enthusiasts with less discretionary income will probably sell significantly cheaper for a while if they need or want to sell a gun.

[johnsonlmg41]

Generally most economic sectors drop during an economic downturn.... thus the term.  What separates "investors" from the general public is that they generally don't sell at a loss like the rest of the sheep, thus avoid slaughter and generally their assets outperform other folks.   Currently the crypto market has a valuation of 3.3 trillion......non tangible, secured by digital code?  Available on several public government regulated stock exchanges....implying there is safety in your government sanctioned "investment".   I know a number of "investors" with 4-5 figure net worth's invested in that (whatever "that" is, since you can't touch or see it) and can barely pay rent.   I'm thinking that may be more risky/bubbly than MG's? 

98% of MG owners/investors I know are staunchly conservative and have rarely lost anything on any of their investments, so the choice might be to hang with that group, the crypto guys, or maybe a 28 year old kid trading stocks in your mutual fund or brokerage who profits on trade commissions, to which it doesn't matter if you win or lose, the house gets the commission on both ends.  They've lobbied for insane rules and tax code that absurdly rewards their industry at the peril of their customer portfolio's and the government partakes in heavy fines and benefits as well from the sheep. (in this case I'm in that group as well trying my best to come out with just a big shearing vs. massive bleeding)

So, no I don't think an FRT will replace a transferable MG if they are allowed to continue.  Or save yourself several hundred and pull a spring out of your lower, and you have made your own FRT......but still not a transferable MG.

[Abbey]

I'm confused by the anti-"investment" sentiment. That sounds a lot like sour grapes. Isn't buying cool stuff half the point of owning transferable machine guns? And in a constrained market with inflating dollar value, there's nowhere for the price to go but up and up.

For me, owning MGs isn't about "hiding" assets, but I personally also don't care about making a profit on machine guns. I just want to diversify my assets and I already love machine guns so as long as the market is stable-ish, the value proposition of ownership makes sense to me - even at today's prices. 

That said, I think (my opinion - it's a free country, make your own decisions) it's never a good idea to go into debt to buy MGs, it's also not a good idea to put large amounts of money into MGs before you have the basics under control (emergency fund funded, non-mortgage debt paid off, etc). And I personally don't feel comfortable putting more than ~10% of my assets in machine guns (or any individual stock, or crypto, or any non-diversified investment) unless I go into the business of collecting/selling. 

But back on topic, I paid extra for a Colt under the assumption that it would hold its value and still be a great shooter. So far I've been right on both assumptions and I'm not worried I'll lose value to FRTs. And if the Hughes amendment is struck down, I'll be too busy making a bunch more new machine guns to worry much about it then either. In that event I'll restore the Colt to OEM spec (currently it's wearing full Geissele kit) and keep it for historical value. 

[riflejunky]

no

[gamebit21]

     Yes, investment is fine with anything, and I do not like the sour grapes comment though. Firearma are like cigarettes, beer, or commonly available items. No one should be able to process people out of “commonly available items. Look what happened during Prohibition Era…. Basically you price average people out of a commonly available item. 
     Now you can see that all people do not get in an uproar because they can not have a yacht…. Allot of people would say who cares! ! With firearms, you are cutting into a core concept with people. Yes, we first look for food, water, shelter, and heat/cooling. Right behind that, people see things like booze, cigarettes, firearms, etc. as basic things all people should have access to. 
     I mean see what up roar would be if say a box of band aids was driven up and controlled like guns. Especially when you see our tax dollars going to local, state, federal agencies caring plenty of guns we all have payed for a tax payers.

     Say I have a bad cut, and I think I need a band aid bad. I can not by one since there are only a few boxes artificially priced and regulated out of control. Then I look at my yearly tax bill, and in a subsection I see a band aid sure tax. Worse yet, I see these government people with lament of bandaids I paid for!!

     Most would agree that common items blocked from everyday people is not right. The whole reason the NFA ACT ever got anywhere was because of the socialist leaning communist president Roosevelt. 
     Roosevelt first wanted to ban all guns. When that did not fly, he then wanted to place all firearms under the NFA. Then he said ok pistols will be under the NFA. After several more attempts, we have what we have now minus the Hughes Amendment. 
     The same idea was in his head though. Hey ok. With this 200 tax stamp, the average person will be barred from ownership. Since the cost of a new car then was 200, it was so.

     Ironically, if the Prohibition Act had never been put in place, then there would not have been a black market that would have caused more crime and violence in the first place. It is just the same story that has happened to right our history. The one or the few control the many….

     It is the same argument with the housing market too. Investor corporations gobble up all the “affordable” housing, so there is no market for average people. Just like with guns, people should be able to afford some type of house. In a “free and open” real market, things could equal out. There are so many insider deals, government interference, and not level tables you have to play on. 
     The have and have not argument can work for luxury items like a Ferrari or a mansion or a yacht. It is not the same for food. a basic abode, or a firearm 2A constitutional right….

[Chef]

Definitely sounds like some people in this thread are really salty they can't walk into Wallmart and buy a FA Colt M4 off the shelf.
Maybe stop going out to eat, lay off the Starbucks and quit smoking and sell your 2024 Silverado and drive a 2000 Tacoma and you'll have saved up enough to buy a real Colt M16 in no time.
Life is full of choices and we all have to live with ours.
You can't expect the economy to bend to your will, or just because you only want to pay $500 for a FA Colt M16, you think they should be unregulated.
MGs aren't "staples". They aren't part of the basics of life. You'll never win an argument where your position is that you're entitled to one the same as food and water.

[Got Uzi]

I’m not salty about the fact you can’t buy a Colt M16 at Walmart. I’m just pointing out that people “investors” have driven prices out of sight. I have worked for what I have and completely understand the sacrifice involved in purchasing NFA items. What I get tired of is a market being inflated by non gun people who only want to diversify. At what point does the market become unsustainable? 
 

“Sour grapes comment”? So I offended you because I offered an opinion that differed from your own? I’m not entitled at all, I just want a fair market not inflated by outside sources. 
 

Prices on NFA used to rise roughly 2.5%-5% per year on average. Then covid came along and prices went up 20%-30% almost overnight. While yes my Fleming sear went from $35.5k (what I paid in Dec 2021) to now that same sear being $50k (or more) its going to become unsustainable at some point. It will get to the point of you have what you have and you’ll count yourself lucky to have it if you are a blue collar worker who enjoys NFA. 

[NickFromAK]

How am I supposed to afford a $20k M240 when it’s probably $500k+ on today’s market through saving and financial responsibility? And let’s say I do one day I can afford one when it’s then at $750k. How am I supposed to enjoy it at the range after spending that much money? This is my gripe with the investor crowd. I get you want to make money, but go buy precious metals or S&P500 index funds and let shooters enjoy an increasing unobtainable asset.

 

I’m saying this as a 28 year old who was lucky enough to afford 3 transferables before life’s expenses started catching up with me. Unless I get bored with any of the three, they’re not hitting the market anytime soon either.  I just wanted automatics to have fun with at the range, and I really do not want to need to care about the investment side of transferables. 

[gamebit21]

To all:

     Ok. I am not getting into this argument who is “better” or who is “bigger” arguments. I have lived a “reasonable” life as possible. I have a company vehicle with my job that I do most of my driving with. For my personal ode. I have a VW Jetta SEL TDI, diesel, I long since paid off. I do allot of my own maintenance. 

     Oh ok, father I have sinned. When I was 21, in government contacting work overseas, I smoked 2 packs of English Dunhill cigarettes. I do not smoke, drink, or go to Starbucks. I even do not buy twinkies at the corner gas station for a 1 dollar something a piece!!

     As to government contract work in backwater, raven wood, and red mountain, I saved my pennies, and I did not drink it away or skirt chase it away…. I even pick up all the change I find on the ground, on counters, and the storm drains I can reach….

     Ok. I came along and of age in the 90s for guns. I was fortunate to buy 2 Group Industries Stainless Steel Lowers, and I got a DLO Type trigger box for HK 90s series weapons .

     For my DLO trigger box, I have all hand built USA Clones as hosts. So what?? I am a shooter, so I do not care. I am not a collector nor an investor on guns. It is true one should diversify themselves in there life’s activities anyways. 

     I am happy with what I have. I mean I can use plenty of belt fed uppers and all sorts of things. No I am not upset it costs more than 500, and no I am not upset I can not get it at Walmart!! :)) :))

     I never said anyone should be able to go into Walmart and just “buy” a Colt M16 like a baseball bat. There was nothing wrong with investment grade fine for example. Sure a NIB Colt M16 from an older date will never be made again, so there would always be collectors and investors for that. 
 
    I hear NICKfromAK his point. How can most people that work hard and smart ever save enough to get to certain things when by that time it will be som much more?? Unrealistic….

     What really needs to happen is the Hughes amendment needs to be gone. It will not set the streets ablaze. What if will do is allow legal and responsible loving people like NickfromAK to partake in a shooting activities. He would say buy a semiautomatic M240 from FN, and he could file a form 1, and he could be allowed to have it converted and have a working gun. 

     We all know Yo homie gandbanger from the crypt will not submit finger prints and photos and fill out any forms for things. I mean if the guys who shoot sideways with handguns, and they can not even hit what is next to what they am at would be punished for crimes, then we might have a change….

     It started in the twenties with Roosevelt and those who thought like him. If you can not make laws to take it away, we will tax it, and we will make it too expensive away from you. I mean let’s face it. Even today it would be an uproar if troops went down the street and kicked in doors to take it all away…..

     my final points. FRTs and other items are developed, because the average man does see firearm ownership as the constitutional right they are too have. I mean in 1776 a black powder musket was considered a “military” weapon. What did the citizens have?? It is no different now. Common man has the conditional right to keep and bear arms specifically small arms. 

     Well NickfromAK, you are right on the nose. Perhaps Trump and the Doge and the new congress thar introduced the ATF and NFA legislation review will have something to say yet. On a lighter note: Alcohol, Tobacl, and Fireamrs…. Why would the government have a Treasury Department Set up to collect taxes for these things if they were not considered staples??

     May Rodney King was right. Can we not all just get along?? :)) :)) Peace to all…. May Trump clear these fun issues as with so much more….

     

[Mustbeme]

Values will plummet therefore who has an M16 to sell me for $20K before the bottom falls out?

[chappy]

My 2 cents on the topic. As for many "experts", my opinion and a dollar won't get you a cup of coffee. For me, after trying an FRT I decided not to purchase an M16 or variant. I am a shooter and not a collector so the rate of fire and ease of use with an FRT takes the select fire off the table. So in my mind, it may keep prices flat becauseit could lessen the number of buyers on the market for an M16.  Now if they got FRTs for Thompsons then I would be concerned that my guns would go down in price.

It all comes down to collctors versus shooters. You can buy a man made diamond (real diamond, 100% same) for much less than a God made diamond. Some will still buy the natural diamond just because it is rarer. For me, same with M16s; some will use FRTs because of the performance while there are those who will buy an authentic, NFA, M16 because it is rarer and the the "real deal".

I would think not a cratered market but more a flatter trajectory in price, My 2 cents worth.

Chappy

[Chef]

2 hours ago, gamebit21 said:

To all:

     Ok. I am not getting into this argument who is “better” or who is “bigger” arguments. I have lived a “reasonable” life as possible. I have a company vehicle with my job that I do most of my driving with. For my personal ode. I have a VW Jetta SEL TDI, diesel, I long since paid off. I do allot of my own maintenance. 

     Oh ok, father I have sinned. When I was 21, in government contacting work overseas, I smoked 2 packs of English Dunhill cigarettes. I do not smoke, drink, or go to Starbucks. I even do not buy twinkies at the corner gas station for a 1 dollar something a piece!!

     As to government contract work in backwater, raven wood, and red mountain, I saved my pennies, and I did not drink it away or skirt chase it away…. I even pick up all the change I find on the ground, on counters, and the storm drains I can reach….

     Ok. I came along and of age in the 90s for guns. I was fortunate to buy 2 Group Industries Stainless Steel Lowers, and I got a DLO Type trigger box for HK 90s series weapons .

     For my DLO trigger box, I have all hand built USA Clones as hosts. So what?? I am a shooter, so I do not care. I am not a collector nor an investor on guns. It is true one should diversify themselves in there life’s activities anyways. 

     I am happy with what I have. I mean I can use plenty of belt fed uppers and all sorts of things. No I am not upset it costs more than 500, and no I am not upset I can not get it at Walmart!! :)) :))

     I never said anyone should be able to go into Walmart and just “buy” a Colt M16 like a baseball bat. There was nothing wrong with investment grade fine for example. Sure a NIB Colt M16 from an older date will never be made again, so there would always be collectors and investors for that. 
 
    I hear NICKfromAK his point. How can most people that work hard and smart ever save enough to get to certain things when by that time it will be som much more?? Unrealistic….

     What really needs to happen is the Hughes amendment needs to be gone. It will not set the streets ablaze. What if will do is allow legal and responsible loving people like NickfromAK to partake in a shooting activities. He would say buy a semiautomatic M240 from FN, and he could file a form 1, and he could be allowed to have it converted and have a working gun. 

     We all know Yo homie gandbanger from the crypt will not submit finger prints and photos and fill out any forms for things. I mean if the guys who shoot sideways with handguns, and they can not even hit what is next to what they am at would be punished for crimes, then we might have a change….

     It started in the twenties with Roosevelt and those who thought like him. If you can not make laws to take it away, we will tax it, and we will make it too expensive away from you. I mean let’s face it. Even today it would be an uproar if troops went down the street and kicked in doors to take it all away…..

     my final points. FRTs and other items are developed, because the average man does see firearm ownership as the constitutional right they are too have. I mean in 1776 a black powder musket was considered a “military” weapon. What did the citizens have?? It is no different now. Common man has the conditional right to keep and bear arms specifically small arms. 

     Well NickfromAK, you are right on the nose. Perhaps Trump and the Doge and the new congress thar introduced the ATF and NFA legislation review will have something to say yet. On a lighter note: Alcohol, Tobacl, and Fireamrs…. Why would the government have a Treasury Department Set up to collect taxes for these things if they were not considered staples??

     May Rodney King was right. Can we not all just get along?? :)) :)) Peace to all…. May Trump clear these fun issues as with so much more….

     

"Why would the government have a Treasury Department Set up to collect taxes for these things if they were not considered staples??"
Is alcohol a staple? Are cigarettes?
I would argue that the treasury dept taxes a lot of stuff that is not considered a staple, much like NFA stuff.


MGs, much like classic cars, are finite in number. There are only so many of them. And every day, another gun enthusiast turns 21 and wants an MP5, or an M16 or an AK. And every day another kid turns 16 and wants a mustang, charger or camero from the 60s or 70s. 
But there are only so many of them in existence.
As the population grows, so does the demand for these limited numbers of items. So of course the cost to obtain one is going to rise. And as it has since forever.
If you're an average guy, working an average job, unless you borrow, steal, win the lottery or really cut your spending, your savings will probably never catch up with the inflation of those items you desire.
That's just life.
Instead of bitching and moaning about how it's so unfair, people (especially the younger ones) need to accept that that's the way it is and work within the system to achieve their goals. And those goals need to be realistic.
As an example, since there are what, less than a dozen transferable M240s, it's probably a good idea not to set owning one as a goal, because unless you were born very rich, it's probably never going to happen.

[NickFromAK]

54 minutes ago, Chef said:

"Why would the government have a Treasury Department Set up to collect taxes for these things if they were not considered staples??"
Is alcohol a staple? Are cigarettes?
I would argue that the treasury dept taxes a lot of stuff that is not considered a staple, much like NFA stuff.


MGs, much like classic cars, are finite in number. There are only so many of them. And every day, another gun enthusiast turns 21 and wants an MP5, or an M16 or an AK. And every day another kid turns 16 and wants a mustang, charger or camero from the 60s or 70s. 
But there are only so many of them in existence.
As the population grows, so does the demand for these limited numbers of items. So of course the cost to obtain one is going to rise. And as it has since forever.
If you're an average guy, working an average job, unless you borrow, steal, win the lottery or really cut your spending, your savings will probably never catch up with the inflation of those items you desire.
That's just life.
Instead of bitching and moaning about how it's so unfair, people (especially the younger ones) need to accept that that's the way it is and work within the system to achieve their goals. And those goals need to be realistic.
As an example, since there are what, less than a dozen transferable M240s, it's probably a good idea not to set owning one as a goal, because unless you were born very rich, it's probably never going to happen.

You are intentionally missing the point that machine guns are artificially scarce. Why need a 1964 manufactured HK when PTR should be able to satisfy that itch? I don’t need a collectible 1st year FN M240 / Mag58. I am more than content with an OOW built gun. It is easy to have your opinion if you were born early enough to take advantage of cheap transferables. However, your attitude could be your undoing when my generation fully bans MGs since they’re becoming a mystical and scary item to the normal crowd. We will see the value of your retirement investment then.

[Chef]

48 minutes ago, NickFromAK said:

You are intentionally missing the point that machine guns are artificially scarce. Why need a 1964 manufactured HK when PTR should be able to satisfy that itch? I don’t need a collectible 1st year FN M240 / Mag58. I am more than content with an OOW built gun. It is easy to have your opinion if you were born early enough to take advantage of cheap transferables. However, your attitude could be your undoing when my generation fully bans MGs since they’re becoming a mystical and scary item to the normal crowd. We will see the value of your retirement investment then.

You mistake me for someone who cares what my guns are worth.
See, I don't have MGs as investments. I've never bought guns as investments. I bought them because I wanted them.

I have an M16 because I had an AR15 when I was younger and always wished it was FA and "bump firing" an AR sucks. It wasn't until 15 years ago that I could finally "scratch that FA itch" and buy an M16.
And while I could sell it today for almost double what I paid and buy a FRT to play with instead, I have no intention of doing so. Not because I don't need the money (because I do), not because it's part of my retirement portfolio (because it isn't), but because I like it and I've always wanted one.

Regardless of it's value, I don't handle it with white gloves or baby it. I shoot it like I would any other firearm I own.

I never had the opportunity to buy "cheap transferables". And while they may be much more expensive today than they were 15 years ago, in another 15 years you may be looking back on today's prices and wishing you would have done anything you could to buy more of them today. Because in the NFA world, you don't pay too much, you're just paying tomorrow's prices today.  

As far as your generation banning MGs, I fully believe it's likely in my lifetime. Far more likely than the restrictions on making new transferable ones will be lifted! And that's why I sold everything I could and borrowed money to fulfill my "bucket list" of "grail" guns while they are still available. Because bans here in the states almost always come with "grandfather clauses" allowing the possessor to retain what he already has. So I made it my goal to get the bare minimum I could before any ban takes place. So I can retire and enjoy my retirement shooting the guns I love.
And if I have to eat Top Ramen for a few years, and drive an old rusted out Toyota pickup so that I can live that retirement dream, so be it!
Because goals and dreams aren't fulfilled by magical fairy's, or genies. They are fulfilled by ourselves through hard work and sacrifice.
And if you aren't willing to put in the work, or make the sacrifices required, then you don't deserve to fulfill your goals or make your dreams come true, whatever they may be.
And if the laws change and my guns are banned or new ones are allowed to be registered and all of my guns drop in value to be worth only a few hundred bucks, or become untransferable and have no value whatsoever, I couldn't care less because I have no intention of selling them while I still live.
 

[rymerc]

On 2/23/2025 at 8:05 AM, Don. said:

I have both and enjoy them equally.  The transferables will only have a significant drop if the Hughes amendment goes away.  Don’t hold your breath on that one.  The FRTs can go away again also.  We’re just an election away from that.

Same here.

I have a pile of super safe whatevers, and still run those along side an M16 lower.

The M16 runs great with almost everything, the SS needs more tweaking, but usually works good enough.

I know a lot of younger people that want an MG but don't trust the super safety legality enough to pounce. They do trust the traditional NFA route, and I'll be surprised if next dem that gets elected doesn't wipe out super safety, forced reset, etc overnight.

 

 

[Ed L]

I don't see a forced reset trigger that allows you to fire two shots to be anything close to full auto.  In fact, it is contrary to any semi-auto or full auto trigger because if fires the second shot when you release the trigger after firing.  I have fired them and I don't like any trigger that fires a shot after you release the trigger after firing a round.

[Abbey]

1 hour ago, Ed L said:

I don't see a forced reset trigger that allows you to fire two shots to be anything close to full auto.  In fact, it is contrary to any semi-auto or full auto trigger because if fires the second shot when you release the trigger after firing.  I have fired them and I don't like any trigger that fires a shot after you release the trigger after firing a round.

You're confusing "Forced Reset" with "Binary". What you describe is a binary trigger. If you search YouTube for videos of the FRT or Super Safety, you'll see it is a different mechanism. While you maintain backward pressure on the trigger, it forces the trigger forward to the reset point and you immediately pull it back and release the trigger again. So while it is mechanically resetting the trigger and forcing an additional trigger pull, biomechanically you are maintaining a constant pressure on the trigger that mimics FA fire. Then once you "let go" of the trigger, it stays cocked and doesn't fire another round like a binary trigger does. 

[Mark2]

In reality Forced Reset Trigger Buyers and Transferable M16 Buyers are separate gene pool markets. 

[MPFiveO]

On 3/2/2025 at 8:41 AM, Mark2 said:

In reality Forced Reset Trigger Buyers and Transferable M16 Buyers are separate gene pool markets. 

LoL, this is a nice way of saying "the poor's"

 

They really are two different products that perform much like automobiles. A budget car will get you to your destination just the same as a luxury car. Some can afford to ride in style where others can't but the destination is all they really care about. A FRT will allow you to shoot fast, so it will get you there.

[Don.]

On 3/2/2025 at 7:41 AM, Mark2 said:

In reality Forced Reset Trigger Buyers and Transferable M16 Buyers are separate gene pool markets. 

I’m in both markets so it’s not a genetic thing.

[JECIII]

Don't think it will first i forsee a bunch of illegal sbr.  Not like a mg or a conversion device exempts yoy from sbr.  2nd agree people want authentic mg and 3 give it a bit first mass shooting or some duchebag uses one there will be an instant law.  Fyi forced resets and supersafe is illegal in 22 states already on devices that increase semi auto rates are illegal.

No not saying supersafes aren't pretty cool but not a machinegun

 

[JECIII]

3 hours ago, JECIII said:

Don't think it will first i forsee a bunch of illegal sbr.  Not like a mg or a conversion device exempts yoy from sbr.  2nd agree people want authentic mg and 3 give it a bit first mass shooting or some duchebag uses one there will be an instant law.  Fyi forced resets and supersafe is illegal in 22 states already on devices that increase semi auto rates are illegal.

No not saying supersafes aren't pretty cool but not a machinegun

 

Also the supersafety is not as reliable as a true mg.or mg.conversion first the trip has to both engage forward and back for it to work.  Lot of stress on the trip we have had them wear after couple hundred rounds and then the bolt rides over it and jams the fuck out of it and have to disassemble the gun.   Also lots of tweeking they don't run put of the box.  Additionally had a few early battery shots it was tripping too early and evidenced by bulges in back of fired cases we had to mill few thousand off the right place of the trip to get timing correct.  What I do see happening is someone getting hurt by an out of battery fire if it's not setup right.  And by the way after 1500 rounds the wear on the selector hole is noticeable and measurable already wore tjrough the annodizing in the selector hole.  I wouldn't use on a reciever I wanted to keep.  It's going to trash a reciever over time.  I'm guessing about a 5k round lifespan.   Before ypy have problems.  Remember 1500 rounds is 3000 cycles.of safe fire most machine guns and ar15 see that much selector cycles in a lifetime.  Plus the push button is a little weird.  But I guess poor man's full auto just like poor man's first class when yoy fly coach and have a whole role to yor self and. An sleep.  It like.first class but it's not.  Sort of like a supersafety.

The super safety does work easier for average Joe you can't pull the trigger too hard and over ride it.  There is no noticeable trigger feedback to the shooter like a frt.  Frt is finnikey and takes some time to learn. Too much trigger pressure on a frt and no bueno semi or it just jams.

 

Just my .$.02 of 20 years experience building machineguns.  

[GUNBUGS]

On 2/24/2025 at 11:23 AM, Chef said:

Because goals and dreams aren't fulfilled by magical fairy's, or genies. They are fulfilled by ourselves through hard work and sacrifice.

On 2/24/2025 at 11:23 AM, Chef said:

You mistake me for someone who cares what my guns are worth.
See, I don't have MGs as investments. I've never bought guns as investments. I bought them because I wanted them.

On 2/24/2025 at 11:23 AM, Chef said:

I never had the opportunity to buy "cheap transferables". And while they may be much more expensive today than they were 15 years ago, in another 15 years you may be looking back on today's prices and wishing you would have done anything you could to buy more of them today. Because in the NFA world, you don't pay too much, you're just paying tomorrow's prices today.  

Well said. One of the best posts in the thread. I have the same thoughts about my MG's.

[Greasegunner]

On 3/1/2025 at 9:09 AM, Ed L said:

I don't see a forced reset trigger that allows you to fire two shots to be anything close to full auto.  In fact, it is contrary to any semi-auto or full auto trigger because if fires the second shot when you release the trigger after firing.  I have fired them and I don't like any trigger that fires a shot after you release the trigger after firing a round.

ED L;

you have described a binary

FRTs are different and easily shoots 800 or more Rounds per minute

[Got Uzi]

I bought one of the DTT 3 pos FRT units and put it in one of my SBR’s…HOLY CRAP!! How this isn’t considered an MG is beyond me. I know by the current definition it isn’t considered one, but good lord this thing is nuts!! I shot it next to my dealer demo M16 and there is damn near no difference in function at all. I was even getting to where I could pull singles, doubles, and triples with that FRT unit….just like an M16…..I was literally at a loss for words when I was done. I had my friend shoot it (who has a transferable Colt M16A1) and he was shocked too. 
 

That being said-on a state level I could see these having issues and getting people into hot water. I think (correct me if I’m wrong) but doesn’t Virginia and Florida have a state law against something like this? I do wonder if states go after “drop in Rate Of Fire device” units (DIROFD) that could have in impact on owning legit NFA units in said states such as: M16 DIAS and HK sear/pack units. End up being a situation where it’s legal on the national level, but in the state level it’s a no go. 

[MPFiveO]

The only reason things like this exist is because they closed the machine gun registry to individuals in May of 1986. Before that people could convert or make their own machine gun. Once they made it illegal to properly register one people got creative with things to simulate full auto fire. Some devices were garbage, others were clumsy, but none really gave truly satisfactory results because they all worked off of a recoil principle. Examples would be the Hellfire trigger device or the bumpstock.

 

When the FRT design came out it revolutionized the idea of simulated full auto fire. Because it was completely mechanical in design it eliminated user influence to make it work. All one has to do is maintain pressure on the trigger in order for it to function. This is where the ATF is looking because it's an ingenious design and it actually works and works well. The issue they see is, it is so easy to use and it works so well that it's too close to the real thing. The problem with that is the FRT function doesn't meet the statutory definition of a machine gun. It makes the shooter perform the single function of pulling the trigger for each shot. The Super Safety design works the same way.

 

The way these function would be no different than pulling the trigger while the safety was engaged and moving the selector to the FIRE position. Once the safety was disengaged the gun will fire. Now, imagine being able to maintain pressure on the trigger while the action cycled and the safety pushed the trigger back forward and re-engaged. And then once the bolt was safely in battery the safety would disengage allowing the trigger to be pulled again.

 

One argument is that the FRT design allows the gun to be fired rapidly without making a conscious deliberate effort to press the trigger for each shot. I would disagree with that and say that as long as pressure is maintained on the trigger that each subsequent shot is deliberate and conscious.

 

The FRT does not meet the statutory definition of a machine gun as written into the bill passed by Congress, just like the bumpstock didn't. It will be interesting to see where things go from here. The bottom line is they don't want you to have a gun that shoots fast and is accurate when doing so. And, because these aren't firearms they can't collect a tax on them or track them to their current owners. It's still and always has been about control.

[Don.]

I have two different types of AK FRTs.  One is marketed as a Super Safety by Deez Nutz Tactical.  It acts on the trigger and doesn’t touch the disconnector.  Then you have a certain bureaucracy posting this disinformation to confuse LEOs.

The FRT looks similar to the DIAS, but it is very different in appearance and function.  If you lack a mechanical background and understanding of how both designs function, you have the potential to make an, otherwise, law abiding citizen miserable for nothing.

 The best AK FRT is the one offered by Alfa Tactical called the Mars trigger.  It replaces the disconnector and has a separate piece that acts on the trigger via the bolt carrier and a transfer bar.  There is fitting required for both.  The DNT has trigger slap you can feel and the AT doesn’t.  They’re both phenomenal when they work and have scratched my transferable AK itch.

 I have a transferable M16 and I recently got a FRT for a KS-47 AR to try.  I haven’t shot it yet, but it behaves like the ‘16 and only acts on the trigger.  It was 100% drop in with no fitting other than profiling the trigger.  All I need is the price of 7,62x39 to drop.