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First belt-fed: M60 or MG42 in .308?


allotrope

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There is a very good reason the M60 was never widely manufactured and never adopted outside the US except where we gave it away (Taiwan and small Central American nation), The MG42/MG3 in 7.62 is widely manufactured and adopted widely and very well respeceted in its capabilities.

Similar story for the M14 vs FAL

 

Think about it

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4 hours ago, allotrope said:

From the perspective of picking a range toy that is more fun, does the E6 upgrade change the equation versus effectively an MG3?

Performance is slightly upgraded, but you double your clicks with the E6 kit and will appear as a major operator on utube.   No question a guy holding a 60 with a front grip and a belt over the shoulder looks cool, but If you truly needed a real battle proven gun the MG42 will leave the M60 in the dust with everything Donwest pointed out and then some.  If I had to get rid of one, the 60 would go first.   Currently the 42's seem to be bargain priced vs. an M60?  They are totally different animals.

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Sorry you old guys don't get it.  They're still making M60s today, for foreign countries and the good ol USA.

They are more controllable on a tripod, but work very well holding underarm on your strong side and using the forearm as it's meant to be!

No offense meant, to each his own.  The E4 and E6 are worth the cost.  Check with Aaron at Beltfeds.com.  BP out

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ive never owned a mg42 but have shot plenty. both 8mm and 308.

i've owned a m60 x 15 yrs and recently upgraded it with the e6 kit.

i have shot the piss out of my m60.

I see MUCH more reliability issues with the mg42 than the M60 - just my experience hanging out and shooting with my friends.

Are they about the same price now? I dunno.

I'd rather have the M60 if I had to pick only one. simply bc you can shoulder it, mount it, or shoot off bipod, or hip fire it. I do it all- mostly shouldering it.

 

that said i would like to pick up a mg42 one day perhaps....but i already have a 1919 which is obviously mounted only (really).

 

how about this way of thinking about it. IF you want to shoulder the beltfed and/or you want a gun that's quicker to throw in the car and go shoot at the range a little and then come back home - not overly involved then the M60 is your choice. IF you want a gun for your man cave to sip wine and brag about - a safe queen  and/or you plan to take it out to the range with a production ( all day etc , bunch of gear , like an organized shoot) only rarely...then get the MG42.

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From a 30 cal beltfed perspective I own an M60 (and a 1919, a RR 21E, and 21EK with a sear) and have shot an MG42 on a couple of occasions.

My personal take is that they all have their pros/cons and those pros/cons for a civilian shooter/collector may be very different from a mil user. 

The big difference from a shooters perspective in my experience between the M60 and MG42 is the cyclic rate.  The M60 chugs along in the mid 600 RPM range  and the MG42 is  1000+RPM at least in the two guns I have shot.  This ROF difference changes both the controllability characteristics from an offhand perspective as well as obviously the cost to shoot. 

My closest personally owned analog to the MG42 is the 21E from a rate of fire perspective and if you want to be able to shoot a 30 cal beltfed gun from the shoulder  the M60 (especially in E3/4/6) with its  much lower cyclic rate is easier to handle and control from the shoulder without any support aids like a bipod or tripod.   That said, all of these 30 cal belt fed guns weigh 20+ lbs so its going to take a decent amount of upper body strength to hold them up and firing them in a safe and controllable manner from the shoulder.

If you plan to primarily shoot off a bipod or tripod than they are all easy to control.  However I will echo the comment above that shooting any of these guns off the bipod laying on the ground also gets old.  Over the years, I have found the more stuff I need to bring with me the less I tend to bring that gun out to shoot so guns that require tables to shoot off of bipods, tripods, stakes, etc. all get shot less than guns that don't.

One other difference is the MG42 is going to require a bit more mechanical knowledge than the M60 as the MG42 has a bit more complicated operating system.   To change caliber to 7.62x51 you are going to need to  swap out a bunch of parts as well as check and confirm headspace with each barrel to make sure everything is correct so it properly functions and you don't end up damaging the gun.  If you are not mechanically inclined the M60 is going to be easier for the casual shooter to work on and maintain as its native to 7.62x51 (so no MG3 conversion parts and barrels), most of the M60 parts are plug and play and headspace on a good condition M60 bolt/barrel is all fixed from the factory.

The 1919 is a completely different experience from all of the guns above.  Its basically a tripod only gun (outside of the kinda kludgeyA6 config) so you are shooting most 1919s  sitting behind the gun using the pistol or spade grips.   I really only keep and shoot the 1919 only because I set mine up in 7.62x39 so its much cheaper to shoot (vs. 30.06/7.62x51), the receiver is close to indestructible,  and parts are so much cheaper and more easily available than just about any other beltfed.  However IMHO there is a reason 1919s are like  1/3rd  the cost of a the other more modern 30 cal transferable beltfeds like M60, MG34, MG42, HK21E because they are just big, heavy, tripod only and not as much fun to shoot in my opinion.

Personally I am happy to have an M60 (and 21E with its ability to also shoot 5.56x45) over the MG42.   That said, one day I would like to add an MG42 to my collection, I just don't know if I  want one ~$70K bad though.  If I did get one I would go to the trouble to set it up to run 7.62x51 in M13 links as 7.92x57 is pretty much over $1 a round today and it would be another unique caliber for me to keep in stock vs. sharing ammo/belts with the M60 and 21E/21EK.   However, I can see why many folks prefer the MG42 over either the M60 or 21E given its iconic status in the firearm world and some folks really want that 1000+ RPM buzzsaw experience as well.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

Edited by jbntex
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There is something else to consider with your choices-an HK21 with a transferable sear.  There are a pile of parts kits on the market now and you can get a host built for a fair amount of money.  Couple that with the fact you can use the sear in any multitude of HK host guns, its a better bang for the buck given an M60 or MG42/MG3 will run you over $70K.  The HK21 offers you a shoulder fired weapon that you can also tripod mount (my personal preference) and does everything either the M60 or MG42/MG3 can do plus more.

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^ very true concerning the hk 21e series. I have a MM21/23e but really leave it in 23e config bc it's so much fun to shoulder. So I almost exclusively shoot mine in 556.

As far as lying in the dirt....no need to with ANY beltfed unless you just like to. I have stand up mounts for all my beltfeds. I just prefer to shoot the 60 and MM23e off hand.

Want heavy from the shoulder ? -- try the Lewis ! oh my. 

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How much does an HK21E / 23E run nowadays? I haven’t gone down that route yet since I heard they are quite jarring to shoot, potentially detrimental to the health of one’s eyes. Also, if they’re $20k+ for just a semi-auto clone, that’s equivalent to a 1919 already. Plus the clones seem to have mixed reviews, based on reading different forums.

Are the 21/23s really worth it, or is it better to use those funds for an M60 or MG42?

Thank you to everyone for your advice, btw!

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Apples to oranges.   If you have not shot an MG42 in .308 with a heavy buffer setup it's a bit faster than a m60.   If you're throwing it in car or shouldering it, they weigh pretty close to the same, so no advantage there.    As to gun issues the M60 is far more trouble prone than the MG42, especially in .308.   Then you can get into parts cost and availability... no comparison really, MG3 parts are everywhere for cheap, since as noted they are everywhere in the world.  As to swapping calibers. that's about 2 minutes, with the longest part unscrewing the flash hider to change out the booster cone.  There are no barrel headspace issues with any of the MG42 barrels I've ever owned or seen.  Plug and play barrels bolts, top covers, butt stocks, etc. , 5x easier and faster than stripping an M60.  

Why do guys run them at 1200 rpm with 8mm?  Well when you bought  pallets at .08 a round that's what you do as you were watching the poor M60 guys having to pay .20 for their stuff.  A multitude of mounts for the MG series including a D-kit, that takes seconds, not 10 minutes to swap out.  If I could buy an 8mm kit for my 60 I'd gladly do it, but I doubt the gun would hold together?

HK21....yes the kits are cheap for a reason.  Talk about parts breakage and problems!!  Once those are all up and running I'd buy stock in eye surgery centers specializing in detached retina's.  Sold mine to get the 21e, and while it was a huge jump in price, it was "sort of" worth it.....saving the money on eye surgery and all?

And yes, OMG there is a predator pack for the MG3/42, but you'd have to make your own assault grip for the front.

1919A6....not really in the running, but yes you could save a bunch of money relative to the guns discussed here.  HK23, not in the same category either.  Like running a desert eagle in 9mm vs. 44 mag.

Lots of ways to blow the budget!

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Shooting an HK21 off the tripod is the best way to do it. I was shooting my latest HK21 build off the bipod this evening. It’s not terrible, but it’s not gentle. 
 

When it comes to the HK belt fed guns, it’s always best to see them running. If the seller has video of it running then you are typically good. Brand new ones seem to be where you can run into all sorts of issues and if you are a novice to the platform, that can make it even more of a learning curve (but that’s any belt fed really)

Clone HK belt fed guns are $12k-$16k where as German built ones can be upwards of $60k. 
 

All guns are gonna break so it’s all in how much you shoot them. 

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Are the 21/23s really worth it, or is it better to use those funds for an M60 or MG42?”

Not comparable bc of the registered hk sear aspect .

IF you are an existing hk reg sear owner ($40-$45k) then the CLEAR beltfed choice for you is to buy a MM23e ( and 21e kit for 308 if that’s your thing ).

If you do not currently own an hk sear and have no desire to leverage a newly purchased hk sear into several machine guns then it’s NOT worth you going this route to scratch your beltfed itch.

If you’re looking for a 1st beltfed…the choice is clear. 1919. 100%. End of discussion.

Ditto if you are on a budget ^
 

Again concerning M60 v MG42 I still say it depends whether you want to shoulder fire it off hand. If “yes” then the clear choice is M60. Period. 
 

If you primarily shoot otherwise ( not off hand ) then MG42 becomes a consideration.

If caliber change is important to you then go MG42 ( or hk23e )over M60.

if you are sitting on a pile of 8mm - then MG42

if you are sitting on piles of 308 - either.

I know JohnsonLMG41 disagrees w me on the reliability aspect. And he is super knowledgeable on beltfeds no doubt. It’s just been my personal experience around transferable MG42 owners that they baby their guns and that they have been unreliable. It is true that M60s slowly eat parts ( bolt face and to much lesser degree op rod and to a much much lesser degree receiver stretching ). 
 

Again I’m talking transferables here not dealer samples etc - those get beat on equally and regardless as they should !

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

... HK21....yes the kits are cheap for a reason.  Talk about parts breakage and problems!!  Once those are all up and running I'd buy stock in eye surgery centers specializing in detached retina's.  ...

Yep.  That happened to me shooting my HK21.  I noticed a black spot in my right eye at the 1:30 position.  There was no pain, just a black spot.  A week later I went to my eye doctor, and he immediately sent me to Austin Retina.   I was diagnosed with a detached retina and had retina surgery the next day.  I was told that within six months I would also need cataract surgery.  Yep, sure as $hit, six months later I had cataract surgery too.

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I was told by my eye surgeons that anyone with nearsightedness should not shoulder fire heavy recoil weapons.  The fast forward and rear movement of your head may cause retinal detachment.  Interestingly, a few years ago one of our old-fart shooter group members brought with him to one of our shoots his new neighbor.  The new neighbor was a recently retired British Air Force fighter pilot.  I related my detached retina story to the retired pilot, and he said that the British Army will not let nearsighted soldiers fire heavy caliber machine guns or be near firing artillery because of the possibility of retinal detachment.

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I've owned a MG42 for more than 30 years. Many close friends have owned M60s. The 42 is hands down simpler and more reliable. Parts rarely ever break and replacements are readily available and easy to install.  Change to MG3 .308 is dead easy, with top cover, feed tray barrel and booster. Rate of fire is readily controlled from Nazi high speed (1200) down to 800 rpm by adding antibounce device to bolt, adding heavy bolt and hydraulic buffer. changing booster size to lessen the boost. In 308 with heavy bolt and correct boost I run at 850 all day long. Gun runs very smooth and true quick change barrels can go all day long. Shoots on buffered lafet or standing tripod or offhand. It's a very simple gun and runs clean or dirty, wet or dry.

Again, why do you think it's so widely manufactured and so widely adopted. Why would a gun designed in the 1930s still be in productiontoday as a first line weapon essentially with only slight changes,  still exist without good reason. Compare that to what you know and read about the M60. Every one of my associates that have owned M60s have sold them over the years as they got old. The MG42 owners I know will die with their guns.

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Or you can think out of the box a bit?   If the other stuff is too heavy, the MG81 is much lighter!   I call this guy "Jack the ripper".   Very easy to shoulder.....course there are some potential drawbacks to shooting it?   You could also try an 08/15?  LOL

Fortunately we have many options and one size does not fit all. 

20230601_182156[1].jpg

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