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Classified Pre-samples now transferable


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I had quite a few flip too but doubt some of the are now transferable. Sounds like a lot of FFLs tried and failed most if not all. 

I can't do the Form 4 to myself to test like some of you since my state it is not a MG friendly state.

Edited by Ryo
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Have any of you noticed that now when you efile a Pre May, Post May, etc. there is a bubble that must be clicked before you continue the transfer? I have a Pre May at almost 8 days in transfer that hasn’t approved yet. I wonder if this new “Field” has something to do with it? 
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10 hours ago, Frank Iannamico said:

Just to clarify... you successfully transferred to non-SOTs on form 4s,  thirty-previously PreMay machine guns that flipped to transferable?

If so that is GOOD news  

Correct. As well as a couple of SACO M60’s that were incorrectly listed as post samples. 

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1 hour ago, damcv62 said:

Correct. As well as a couple of SACO M60’s that were incorrectly listed as post samples. 

Congrats on winning the NFA Lottery!

 

I had a pre sample come back is a post sample.:(

Edited by bigbore
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21 hours ago, bigbore said:

I had a pre sample come back is a post sample.:(

How did that happen? Was it as a result of asking for info if it was transferable vs premay? Do you know by how many days it missed the mark? And what gun is it?

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2 hours ago, duza9999 said:

How did that happen? Was it as a result of asking for info if it was transferable vs premay? Do you know by how many days it missed the mark? And what gun is it?

Transfer was approved as a pre may when I got it(C prefix MP5) many moons ago.   I sold it recently as transferable.  Form 3 approved no restrictions.   A week later I got a call from the NFA branch that it was accidentally approved and I needed to supply a law or void the transfer.  I refunded the buyer, and he refused delivery.  It's back in my inventory in white with no restrictions noted.  I'll do a FOIA on it to see what's up.

Edited by bigbore
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9 hours ago, bigbore said:

Transfer was approved as a pre may when I got it(C prefix MP5) many moons ago.   I sold it recently as transferable.  Form 3 approved no restrictions.   A week later I got a call from the NFA branch that it was accidentally approved and I needed to supply a law or void the transfer.  I refunded the buyer, and he refused delivery.  It's back in my inventory in white with no restrictions noted.  I'll do a FOIA on it to see what's up.

Ah, the ever reliable ATF!  No gun is really safe, and this new batch of "suddenly transferable" guns is the most endangered, but all bets are off when it comes right donw to it.

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On 6/22/2024 at 5:31 AM, damcv62 said:

Hardly. Maybe for you, I’ve had over 30 flip, and transferred via form 4’s. 

Wow.. That must have been amazing feeling. I hope mine are transferable.. I know at least one MP5 in my inventory was owned by the police. 

Doing a FOIA on few  now to see if I can get insight if they were imported for law enforcement.

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On 6/24/2024 at 8:44 AM, duza9999 said:

How did that happen? Was it as a result of asking for info if it was transferable vs premay? Do you know by how many days it missed the mark? And what gun is it?

I’ve had the same. People act like this is all rainbow and sunshine. It’s not. They are reviewing all of the guns. Stands to reason some were mistakingly listed as a premay when it was a post sample. It’s far from over and expect more changes to come. 

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The psychology behind this may be that sellers become reluctant to sell because of the potential for a negative reclassification and buyers become "gun shy" about purchasing. I'm still hoping to hear how the Morphy's reclassified MP5s faired. I wonder if Ian will be giving a follow-up Youtube video?

 

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On 5/8/2024 at 6:53 AM, Uncle Zeek said:

 

Have a client estate that may have one . . . will be rather interesting to tell the family if so.

One week processing came true. Not so much with guns actually transfering?

Effective way of getting Buyers to mistrust Dealers!

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12 hours ago, BDMERC said:

The psychology behind this may be that sellers become reluctant to sell because of the potential for a negative reclassification and buyers become "gun shy" about purchasing. I'm still hoping to hear how the Morphy's reclassified MP5s faired. I wonder if Ian will be giving a follow-up Youtube video?

 

I'll ask him when he comes to do a video at my south Florida mountaintop estate on the triple push pin HK21E?

I gamble quite bit in the C3 world, but I wouldn't touch a RR PP MP5 unless it said billistics or one or two others on it.  I'd pay more for a pre-may PP than one of the Morphys "new transferables".    It certainly has affected the marketplace IMO for some people.    

The one week transfer thing isn't really real either.  It happpened for "some people" for "some things", but never become the norm.  The  u-tuber culture lives in it's own world, but I do find comic relief there occasionally.

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Don't forget-Ian is part of the NFA-TCA so he has the "inside track" on this mess.

I too have been wondering about the Morphys guns and what happened.  Seems like things have gone radio silent over all of this lately.....and still no offical documentation/releases from AFT-NFA branch over this.

Edited by Got Uzi
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On 6/26/2024 at 6:48 AM, Got Uzi said:

Don't forget-Ian is part of the NFA-TCA so he has the "inside track" on this mess.

I too have been wondering about the Morphys guns and what happened.  Seems like things have gone radio silent over all of this lately.....and still no offical documentation/releases from AFT-NFA branch over this.

I have a feeling the NFA-TCA got a little ahead of themselves on publicizing the changes. Pre-samples becoming transferable isn't new, but the failure to notify the public on the ATF's end is questionable. It seems like something they were trying to keep quiet for a while until Morphys wanted to move those MP5's.

Now with dealers trying to transfer a bunch of pre-samples on form 4's with no real process, I bet NFA division has been caught with their pants down.

Edited by Flevvy
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4 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

@Flevvy-dont say anything like that on HKPro or you’ll be lamb basted!! Jeff Foddler is one of the Mods over there and they are all tight knit circling the wagons when someone questions things about this. 

Oh gosh, don't get me started. I like HK stuff as much as the next guy, but I find myself treading lightly in that community.

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Josh (or anybody with knowledge on this) did you know or have an idea that they were now transferable prior to doing the F4's?

I have looked at my eFile page and all items are with a White background, however someone posted earlier that while they thought that was an indication of that item now being transferable, it was not.

I have also sent in a signed letter to BATFE "James" asking about 1 line item (to keep it simple) "is this S/N transferable on a F4 to an individual? NOTHING back yet in 4 weeks, still hoping for an answer!

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5 hours ago, Dscheid NFA Investments said:

Josh (or anybody with knowledge on this) did you know or have an idea that they were now transferable prior to doing the F4's?

I have looked at my eFile page and all items are with a White background, however someone posted earlier that while they thought that was an indication of that item now being transferable, it was not.

I have also sent in a signed letter to BATFE "James" asking about 1 line item (to keep it simple) "is this S/N transferable on a F4 to an individual? NOTHING back yet in 4 weeks, still hoping for an answer!


The only indication was that both showed unrestricted in eForms. We have two more 416D SF and one more 552 in inventory for which we will submit eF4. We are going to also send letters re: these three, as they are for customers. The other two I mentioned belong to my partner and me. 

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On 6/13/2024 at 6:01 PM, advert said:

I have a pre sample MP5 that I bought in September of last year. When I got the form 3 last year I was surprised to see under restrictions it did not say limited to sales sample. Instead it says in red "Imported for Use by Government Agency under 26 U.S.C. 5844".

I was curious about this at the time so I did a FOIA on the gun. It was imported by HK Feb 19 1986 and the original import form says for law enforcement. It was immediately transferred to a PD on the same day and approved Feb 27 1986 . From there it appears to have stayed with the same PD for close to 30 years. On the original form 5 there is a stamp from the ATF that said " Restriction on retention and/or transfer of firearms conditionally imported: This firearm was conditionally imported under 26 U.S.C Sec 5844(1) fir government / law enforcement use only." 

after the PD it was transferred 3 times before me, each time bearing the limited to sales sample stamp, till it hit mine and switched. 

With this guns clear history it would defiantly  fall into the "criteria" that people are saying would make it transferable. 

So Today I went to the UPS store got some e fingerprints and am going to try and form 4 it to my self to see what happens. I figured with the ETF finger prints I should have an answer pretty quick. I will report back what I find. 

Still waiting on this. Guess its not going to be one of those 2 day approvals. Have not received any rejection nor approval yet. 

Edited by advert
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On 6/28/2024 at 9:15 AM, Flevvy said:

Oh gosh, don't get me started. I like HK stuff as much as the next guy, but I find myself treading lightly in that community.

This is so true.  I was chatting on the forums with x admin all seemed friendly helpful info.  Then y admin came in and deleted all my posts and I never figured out why.  Just figured oh well not the only game in town.... glad it wasnt just me.  

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1 hour ago, Aren said:

Any update on this craziness?

Everything has gone silent lately,nobody has any updates and ATF still isn't talking. I would hope a few sellers would report on successful (or not) transfers of some of these new "miraculous " transferables. 

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     It will be interesting to see how this impacts future sales of "transferables"... I am sure there is a lot of guys out there who will not disclose in their listings that a specific gun was previously categorized as a Pre-Sample and will just be listing it as transferable based Soley on it "flipping" in their e-forms inventory.... It does not surprise me that things have gone quiet on these. I too am very curious to see if form 4s are actually being approved. 

Aaron

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There hasn't been any word on the MP5's from Morphys either...did they transfer or not?  I have sent in a FOIA request on one of my guns and plan to send in on the others as I am curious.  The entire thing has gone dead silent and it is making me wonder if things are reversing back to what they were?

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The sellers may not feel like disclosing the previous status of the ex-samples they are selling, but anyone fairly knowledgeable and experienced should be able to tell, just by the type of gun it is, if it used to be a sample or not.  
Most samples are samples because they were either made after 1968 or represent a rare model that wasn't generally available on the commercial market prior to 1968. 

So unless you're a newb, you won't be buying a "transferable" Beretta PM12s, for example, thinking it was anything other than an ex-sample. And if anyone sees a "transferable" factory IMI UZI pop up for sale, even though a few do exist as "real" transferables, you'd have to assume it was an ex-sample until proven otherwise because you just don't see any of the few actual transferable factory UZIs being listed, ever.

Some of the more common ex-samples people are reporting as flipping to transferable status, like Thompsons or M3A1 Greaseguns, well, prospective buyers will just have to be cautious before committing to buy these models in the future, if they are scared of getting stuck holding the bag.
Because shady sellers will most likely have already "laundered" the papers on them to hide their previous status. So for these, the only options a buyer has is doing a FOIA on it or simply avoiding any common machinegun for sale that has a form 3 or 4 dated in 2024.

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@Chef that may be true for samples such as MP5s, but there is a TON of other types of guns that have "flipped" that one would not be able to tell unless disclosed.... I am aware of AAC 556s (post sample), M249s, M240s, M60s and multiple other types of American made guns. I do not believe this is just the "law enforcement import guns" that is mentioned... Because there is a lot of guns that the status is changing for that were not imported.

    We will see how it goes... But yes, buyers will have to be cautious. I just think this has the potential to change the landscape of buying certain transferables. Which is why I am not surprised things have gone quiet... We shall see. 

Edited by Aaron in Mohnton Pa
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6 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

There hasn't been any word on the MP5's from Morphys either...did they transfer or not?  I have sent in a FOIA request on one of my guns and plan to send in on the others as I am curious.  The entire thing has gone dead silent and it is making me wonder if things are reversing back to what they were?

Well, as of yesterday the 4 miracle guns in my inventory still show as transferable.  I'm biding my time but plan to sell all my inventory in the next 2-3 years, so....

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I didn't mean to imply anything capricious,  any gun I sell that is denied will result in an immediate refund to the buyer, and I'll fully disclose it's history. I'm just hoping this is all settled before I start selling off my guns.

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9 hours ago, Chef said:

So for these, the only options a buyer has is doing a FOIA on it or simply avoiding any common machinegun for sale that has a form 3 or 4 dated in 2024.

Buyer can't do a FOIA since they don't own it. Plus it takes forever.. Still waiting for FOIA I did. 

Also avoiding form 3/4 transfered in 2024? That does nothing and tells you nothing. 

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16 hours ago, Ryo said:

 

Buyer can't do a FOIA since they don't own it. Plus it takes forever.. Still waiting for FOIA I did. 

Also avoiding form 3/4 transfered in 2024? That does nothing and tells you nothing. 

True that, but unless I do a transfer to myself there's no other way to be sure.  I'm not against that, and may do it for one gun as a test, I can just void it once it is approved, but waiting for the refund takes almost as long as waiting for the FOIA request.  

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1 minute ago, Bill in Bama said:

True that, but unless I do a transfer to myself there's no other way to be sure.  I'm not against that, and may do it for one gun as a test, I can just void it once it is approved, but waiting for the refund takes almost as long as waiting for the FOIA request.  

Efiled refunds take a week.  

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I received three more FOIA requests back…one to go

I submitted the FOIAs online in early June, the first four responses came back in about three weeks, on 6/28/2024, and three more came back today 7/18/2024, one left outstanding

It looks like my Sterling is not going to be transferable, no evidence of an LE form 5 .

My 1972 dated MP5 may be transferable… import form reads “imported for sale to law enforcement agencies”  Two hundred were imported at a cost of $350.00 each. Last page says Morristown, NJ Sheriff’s Department 1976, no more info.

So far it looks like only three of my eight guns that flipped will possibly be transferable. 

UPDATE It looks like my UZI is transferable! it was sold to Bingham County Sheriff's Office, Idaho

import form reads LAW ENFORCEMENT 

There were 200 MP5s listed (s/n's redacted) on the import form (SACO, VA)

There was only 1 UZI listed on the import form 

Edited by Frank Iannamico
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2 minutes ago, Frank Iannamico said:

I received two more FOIA requests back…

It looks like my Sterling is not going to be transferable, no evidence of an LE form 5 .

My 1972 dated MP5 may be transferable… import form reads “imported for sale to law enforcement agencies”  Two hundred were imported at a cost of $350.00 each. Last page says Morristown, NJ Sheriff’s Department 1976, no more info.

So far it looks like only two of my eight guns that flipped will possibly be transferable. There is a good chance my UZI may be transferable because it came with a form that it transferred to a PD. No FOIA back on it yet.

UPDATE It looks like my UZI is transferable! was sold to Bingham County Sheriff's Office, Idaho

import form reads LAW ENFORCEMENT 

Wow, congrats. Sounds like this could be a HUGE score of epic levels. I had only heard whispers of less than a handful of transferable UZIs that made it in before 1968, and their value was commiserate with that scarcity.

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32 minutes ago, Tall Pine said:

Wow, congrats. Sounds like this could be a HUGE score of epic levels. I had only heard whispers of less than a handful of transferable UZIs that made it in before 1968, and their value was commiserate with that scarcity.

My Heirs will be pleased...I don't plan on selling anything

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With all the Pre-May samples now transferrable one would think that prices would drop a bit. I know of about 15 MP5s that are now transferrable but astonishly listed for around $70k….which might have been the market rate for these prior to the recent changes….but now?
 

Edited by Husker402
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I submitted 2 paper form 4’s from my business to myself. Both are now removed from my e-inventory.  I called the atf to ask and was told they were allowed to transfer and were removed while in limbo waiting for the final approval.  I brought up that they were pressmples that recently had a status change.  She felt if they were not allowed to transfer to an individual that they would have kicked them back.  Vs erase them from my inventory.  
 

a gg m3a1 and a star z63

if any of you remember. That’s the z63 on gb from this spring.  Listed as a transferrable , then canceled and relisted as a presample.  Before the info was public it caused confusion.  It’s transferred twice on a form 3 as a transferrable

fun to buy a presample very recently and have it 3-4x in value 

 

Edited by huggytree
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2 hours ago, Husker402 said:

With all the Pre-May samples now transferrable one would think that prices would drop a bit. I know of about 15 MP5s that are now transferrable but astonishly listed for around $70k….which might have been the market rate for these prior to the recent changes….but now?
 

The difference is all the pre mays are real MP5's. Everything before was a clone. A pre may is the only way to get a genuine 100% HK made MP5. I am sure a lot of people will pay a premium for that. 

Also, It seems that we still have not got any confirmation of any of these MP5's transferring on a form 4 yet. I submitted a form 4 to my self on one that 100% meets the "criteria" even knowing this "criteria" has never been established my the ATF. Any ways that MP5 still has not successfully transferred to me yet. Its been 38 days since submittal so I guess that could a good thing seeing the last one that we know was tested was Big Bores and it seems like after a week they denied it. 

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On 6/28/2024 at 7:11 AM, Got Uzi said:

@Flevvy-dont say anything like that on HKPro or you’ll be lamb basted!! Jeff Foddler is one of the Mods over there and they are all tight knit circling the wagons when someone questions things about this. 

To say the least...tread lightly...good ol boys queer club.

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