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Classified Pre-samples now transferable


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7 hours ago, Syncytium1 said:

You can make a Form 3.  When you add an item from your inventory to it, transferables should have a white background, pre-samples orange, posties red.

People are also making Form 4s and checking to see if an inventory item can be added or not.  If it can be added, they are assuming it is transferable. 

I cannot say for sure how accurate either method is when trying to anticipate what guns the ATF will ultimately determine are transferable or not, but that it what people seem to be doing.

 

That is generally true, but not always.  Some of my pre-samples that are now transferables were showing up as white before they changed status.  I never tried to see if any would transfer on a Form 4 before this took place since I knew they were pre-samples.  Nothing is foolproof, but if a pre-sample in your inventory now shows as OK to transfer on a Form 4 this is the best guarantee I can imagine, maybe short of a letter noting the change in status/  But as was stated above, nobody has received an answer to an inquiry and I would be they are getting flooded with letters.  They have never been very fast with this sort of thing, I once filed a FOIA request and it took 4-5 months if I remember correctly.  I have no plans to sell any of my new trannies right now, but its nice to know that they are now worth way more than I paid for them and my "401K" just increased greatly in value.  

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7 hours ago, Bill in Bama said:

That is generally true, but not always.  Some of my pre-samples that are now transferables were showing up as white before they changed status.  I never tried to see if any would transfer on a Form 4 before this took place since I knew they were pre-samples.  Nothing is foolproof, but if a pre-sample in your inventory now shows as OK to transfer on a Form 4 this is the best guarantee I can imagine, maybe short of a letter noting the change in status/  But as was stated above, nobody has received an answer to an inquiry and I would be they are getting flooded with letters.  They have never been very fast with this sort of thing, I once filed a FOIA request and it took 4-5 months if I remember correctly.  I have no plans to sell any of my new trannies right now, but its nice to know that they are now worth way more than I paid for them and my "401K" just increased greatly in value.  

Your experience is the same as mine, Bill.  I have 10 presamples in my inventory and most of them have always had a white background.  7 of those allow me to add them to a Form 4 (I also never tried to do so before this change in status came up).   2 of the 7 have a comment in the far right column that says "Imported for government agency" (or something similar, I don't have it open in front of me currently).  

Edited by Syncytium1
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I think I have a mini uzi that just changed. No longer yellow with restrictions as before.....  not celebrating yet.

 

I'm not sure how accurate this is as I registered to post sample guns and they are showing transferable wtf.....

I don't know maybe because I did a paper f2?

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55 minutes ago, JECIII said:

I think I have a mini uzi that just changed. No longer yellow with restrictions as before.....  not celebrating yet.

 

I'm not sure how accurate this is as I registered to post sample guns and they are showing transferable wtf.....

I don't know maybe because I did a paper f2?

As I’ve said all along this is far from over. It’s going to take time to sort through this all. 
 

And it’s also post samples. I’ve had multiple post samples flip, same process, some where along the line they were entered incorrectly, and the atf just ran with it. Now that they are reviewing every machine gun form they are getting updated. And to think I almost didn’t buy those 4 SACO M60 post samples from a dealer who was closing out. :) :);) 

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So one would think that one of these factory guns that now are magically transferable should be worth more than a similar.  Ie factory swingdown mp5s that are transferrable.

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1 hour ago, damcv62 said:

As I’ve said all along this is far from over. It’s going to take time to sort through this all. 
 

And it’s also post samples. I’ve had multiple post samples flip, same process, some where along the line they were entered incorrectly, and the atf just ran with it. Now that they are reviewing every machine gun form they are getting updated. And to think I almost didn’t buy those 4 SACO M60 post samples from a dealer who was closing out. :) :);) 

Problem is I agree with others this has the potential to go the other way and the whole thing appears to be a cluster fuck.  Sorta sketchy some make out on this change others don't sorta like the student loan forgiveness.

Did anyone see the bill introduced yesterday to eliminate the nfa tax?  Won't go anywhere but it was introduced

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6 hours ago, JECIII said:

Problem is I agree with others this has the potential to go the other way and the whole thing appears to be a cluster fuck.  Sorta sketchy some make out on this change others don't sorta like the student loan forgiveness.

Did anyone see the bill introduced yesterday to eliminate the nfa tax?  Won't go anywhere but it was introduced

I'm inclined to be opposed to it, simply because it might give the anti gun crowd ideas about increasing it, or worse, banning them entirely.  Some things are best left alone.

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5 minutes ago, Bill in Bama said:

I'm inclined to be opposed to it, simply because it might give the anti gun crowd ideas about increasing it, or worse, banning them entirely.  Some things are best left alone.

Agree 100%. More potential for a bad outcome than good by bringing attention to the NFA tax.

Edited by tommyboy
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15 hours ago, JECIII said:

So one would think that one of these factory guns that now are magically transferable should be worth more than a similar.  Ie factory swingdown mp5s that are transferrable.

If you're asking if a pre-sample/now transferable ex-LE Mp5 is worth more than a converted Hk94, then yes, to those people who want a "real" Mp5 and not a conversion or a sear.
 

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15 hours ago, Chef said:

If you're asking if a pre-sample/now transferable ex-LE Mp5 is worth more than a converted Hk94, then yes, to those people who want a "real" Mp5 and not a conversion or a sear.
 

Exactly just like those hk guys that go nuts over double pushpin guns.....  up until this point there were absolutely no factory transferable mini uzi.   All were converts or chopped full sized.   Now I know of at least one transferable factory mininuzi.  I'm not saying it's right or fair.  And again agree could go the other way

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On 5/16/2024 at 12:05 PM, JECIII said:

 Sorta sketchy some make out on this change others don't sorta like the student loan forgiveness.

 

You wanting anyone who made out on it to give the people who didn't some of the increase in value?  Sounds like a Biden voter to me.

 

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4 minutes ago, Austringer said:

You wanting anyone who made out on it to give the people who didn't some of the increase in value?  Sounds like a Biden voter to me.

 

Ha no I actually.  I'm saying it sounds like a  Biden policy just like student loan forgiveness.  I'm going to bet the guns reclassed belong to the couple democrats that are dealers. 9-)

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4 hours ago, MP5 said:

Has anyone seen anything official on this that has been put out by ATF?  Like on their website?  (Link?)  Or ....????

Only thing seen "officially" is changes on eForms for dealers and a couple of email correspondences with ATF. You basically have to call or email ATF at the moment to get any clarification.

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On 5/17/2024 at 7:02 PM, JECIII said:

Ha no I actually.  I'm saying it sounds like a  Biden policy just like student loan forgiveness.  I'm going to bet the guns reclassed belong to the couple democrats that are dealers. 9-)

I'm pretty sure you're correct, unfort.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think I'll sit back and wait, atf has a Ling and bullied history of changing their rulings.  I hope not this time, but I wouldn't buy a former resample at this time.  YMMV

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I was just joking.. 

Hope for the best, expect the worst as they say. 

Though this time is quite different than the amnesty since it is all in the ATF records.

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You know,  if the Treasury department did a little critical thinking (I can dream, can't i?), they would conclude that making ALL pre samples into transferable would reap a significant amount of tax(maybe not significant by government standards,  though) and advise ATF to do so. Extending that thinking to post samples might be a stretch, but anyway....

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On 6/4/2024 at 8:59 PM, Got Uzi said:

Capitol gains taxes will be a bitch huh? Lol

Nah.  Not unless you have alot of other capital gains, or your overall income is so high that you lose out on the 15% long term capital gains rate.

Edited by Uncle Zeek
dumb typo
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11 hours ago, Uncle Zeek said:

Nah.  Not unless you have alot of other capital gains, or your overall income is so high that you lose out on the zero% long term capital gains rate.

You assume people have owned them long term. I’ve bought ten since the first of the year. 

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On 5/10/2024 at 7:54 PM, Got Uzi said:

SEC handles insider trading and investment issues-machine guns are now considered investments and a commodity which falls under the SEC jurisdiction…yeah I know my stuff too. 
 

Machine guns being sold as “investment grade” and even the article in the WSJ from Frank G stated MG’s are sound investments. If someone really wanted to push things, it’s not that much of a stretch boys and girls. 

Yes it is.  These aren't securities. 

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On 5/16/2024 at 11:05 AM, JECIII said:

Problem is I agree with others this has the potential to go the other way and the whole thing appears to be a cluster fuck.  Sorta sketchy some make out on this change others don't sorta like the student loan forgiveness.

Did anyone see the bill introduced yesterday to eliminate the nfa tax?  Won't go anywhere but it was introduced

Yea, we shouldnt want them to touch or look at the NFA tax. Most likely if they looked at it they would realize it's never been inflation adjusted in 90 years, or worse. 

Edited by Gaujo
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49 minutes ago, Gaujo said:

Yea, we shouldnt want them to touch or look at the NFA tax. Most likely if they looked at it they would realize it's never been inflation adjusted in 90 years, or worse. 

Let's not mention the classification of street.sweepers as DD, what's keeping them from classifying a saiga with a drum as a dd?

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On 6/5/2024 at 6:57 AM, Uncle Zeek said:

Nah.  Not unless you have alot of other capital gains, or your overall income is so high that you lose out on the zero% long term capital gains rate.

You say that like the LTCG income threshold is high. It's literally $47k individual. I spent that amount on 1 machine gun. I'd love to see the average income of machine gun purchasers compared to the average income in the US generally. If I were a betting man, I'd wager very few machine gun purchasers qualify for 0% LTCG. 

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20 minutes ago, Abbey said:

You say that like the LTCG income threshold is high. It's literally $47k individual. I spent that amount on 1 machine gun. I'd love to see the average income of machine gun purchasers compared to the average income in the US generally. If I were a betting man, I'd wager very few machine gun purchasers qualify for 0% LTCG. 

Thanks for catching the error - was thinking the 15% long term rate.  Not sure why I typed zero (brain fog maybe)   And yes, you'd have to be making over half a million to pay more than the 15% rate.

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Well I have a update !! I tried to transfer a known Pre86 MP5 dealer sample, that was purchased here on the forum for 55k and it was denied , and end the discussion about pre86 pd guns becoming transferable , this was the gun we could add to a form 4 and such . So buyers please be aware .

 

Edited by Saab95v6
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18 minutes ago, Saab95v6 said:

Well I have a update !! I tried to transfer a known Pre86 MP5 dealer sample, that was purchased here on the forum for 55k and it was denied , and end the discussion about pre86 pd guns becoming transferable , this was the gun we could add to a form 4 and such . So buyers please be aware .

 

Thanks for playing along!  Too bad for both of us it didn't work out.  I'll get your refund check in the mail tomorrow.

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5 minutes ago, Spartan said:

Sounds like best course of action is to transfer to yourself on form 4 first, then back?

 

Has anyone received written statement from atf that their gun is transferable?  

I was told 60-90 day for a response to my letters.  Form 4 are being approved or denied in a week so I'm going to efile all my pre-samples to myself and see what happens.

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23 minutes ago, bigbore said:

I was told 60-90 day for a response to my letters.  Form 4 are being approved or denied in a week so I'm going to efile all my pre-samples to myself and see what happens.

Worth the $400 in stamps to be sure!

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36 minutes ago, Spartan said:

Sounds like best course of action is to transfer to yourself on form 4 first, then back?

 

Has anyone received written statement from atf that their gun is transferable?  

Yep myself and a few friends have gone over at least 100 guns to find out exactly what we have. Color in your inventory means basically nothing.

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8 hours ago, Saab95v6 said:

Well I have a update !! I tried to transfer a known Pre86 MP5 dealer sample, that was purchased here on the forum for 55k and it was denied , and end the discussion about pre86 pd guns becoming transferable , this was the gun we could add to a form 4 and such . So buyers please be aware .

 

Was there a statement of why it was rejected? You could alway contact the ATF and ask why if they did not

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While I can't say I am surprised with how inept and disorganized this whole thing is, I must say it is pretty discouraging that it is rolling out as it is.  I talked with another SOT yesterday who said he talked with a regular contact at ATF who was surprised that he didn't know of the recent reclassification of  some MG's.  But with noting official from ATF how would anyone know, except that we now know some SOT's were "in the know" early on and made plans and decisions based on that knowledge that greatly benefited them, while the rest of us read all the rumors and half-truths on forums.  My four pre-samples that have changed to trans guns may or may not be trans in actuality, I guess I'll form 4 them to myself and see what happens, that seems to be the best course right now to avoid hurt feelings and damage to reputations, not to mention the danger in sending out large sums of money that may or may not be returned.

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I don't know how reliable the online inventory is.  I have 2 post sample lightning links that are not showing under restricted.  Now I did send them in paper form.  But they are clearly showing un restricted.  So I'm. Not 100 pct sure I believe it yet on my mini uzi that went from orange to white.

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I submitted a letter requesting status of my pre-samples over a month ago and was told that a response would take a minimum of three. I'll wait a few more prior to trying the test form4 route.

My pre-sample UZI did not have the restrictive statement on the form3, but I did a FOIA years ago which confirmed it's pre-sample status. None of my NFAs online ever had a color status.

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Sent in a paper form 4 on a pre sample star z63 from my business to my trust.  After 2 months it just disappeared from my E- inventory.  Got excited it’s approved. Called the atf to check on it and was told its pending still but should be qualified to transfer as a transferrable as it’s erased from my e-inventory .  I won’t know for 6-7 more months.  But it appears it’s working for me.  The gun has transferred 2x on a form 3 this year and has been marked w/ no restrictions both times and was in my inventory as a transferrable too.  
 

Sent in a 2nd form 4 on another presample that’s changed too.  If I get lucky I’ve just made $50,000+ in extra value 

Edited by huggytree
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I have a pre sample MP5 that I bought in September of last year. When I got the form 3 last year I was surprised to see under restrictions it did not say limited to sales sample. Instead it says in red "Imported for Use by Government Agency under 26 U.S.C. 5844".

I was curious about this at the time so I did a FOIA on the gun. It was imported by HK Feb 19 1986 and the original import form says for law enforcement. It was immediately transferred to a PD on the same day and approved Feb 27 1986 . From there it appears to have stayed with the same PD for close to 30 years. On the original form 5 there is a stamp from the ATF that said " Restriction on retention and/or transfer of firearms conditionally imported: This firearm was conditionally imported under 26 U.S.C Sec 5844(1) fir government / law enforcement use only." 

after the PD it was transferred 3 times before me, each time bearing the limited to sales sample stamp, till it hit mine and switched. 

With this guns clear history it would defiantly  fall into the "criteria" that people are saying would make it transferable. 

So Today I went to the UPS store got some e fingerprints and am going to try and form 4 it to my self to see what happens. I figured with the ETF finger prints I should have an answer pretty quick. I will report back what I find. 

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1 hour ago, Frank Iannamico said:

If you look to the far right there is a column that lists the restrictions (if any)

My postys read "restricted 922 (0)"

My PreMays read "Imported for use as a sales sample"

Transferables are blank  

efile.jpg

But look at this curveball. Its white. and look at what it says for the restriction. 

spacer.png

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I efiled form 4s for 6 previous pre-samples that are not marked restricted last week.   They all came back today disapproved as dealer samples requiring an SOT.  My efile inventory is updated with the correct colors and restrictions.

Edited by bigbore
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4 hours ago, J237 said:

Has anyone got anything in writing or personally spoke to an examiner recently regarding the premay-trans discussion? 

Yes,

but probably only one guy in this whole thread.  The others do not post here.

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On 6/18/2024 at 11:02 AM, bigbore said:

I efiled form 4s for 6 previous pre-samples that are not marked restricted last week.   They all came back today disapproved as dealer samples requiring an SOT.  My efile inventory is updated with the correct colors and restrictions.

So I'm assuming that transferables are still transferables, pre-samples are still pre-samples and post samples are still post samples. This is all much to do about nothing?

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2 hours ago, BDMERC said:

So I'm assuming that transferables are still transferables, pre-samples are still pre-samples and post samples are still post samples. This is all much to do about nothing?

No, I think some are going to be changed and it will last, but individual guns are a crap shoot at present. It's going to take time for everything to shake out.  Ideally ATF would issue some guidance, but I doubt that will happen. After the SCOTUS rulling on bump stocks they probably won't stick their necks out on anything the least bit controversial. 

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3 hours ago, BDMERC said:

So I'm assuming that transferables are still transferables, pre-samples are still pre-samples and post samples are still post samples. This is all much to do about nothing?

Basically yes.

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