Frederick Co. Sheriff indicted in scheme to unlawfully acquire machine guns

[Buddy H]

I visited this gunshop just last summer ……..

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/maryland/frederick-county-sheriff-indicted-scheme-illegally-acquire-machine-guns/65-4bd633d7-d07a-4649-a6e4-27e0afca8e92   
 

 

[United Surplus Arms]

I see the exact situation near where I live - only a matter of time before someone is indicted.

[Got Uzi]

And they wonder why the "law letter" post samples are now under such close examination?  Hmmmm I wonder.....guys trying to cheat the system ruined it for everyone.  

[SGT Fish]

More BS rules the ATF made up to disarm and criminalize good citizens... 

 

Shouldn't be a rule in the first place. 

 

[Thumpy]

While I hope they beat the case an don’t get convicted… this is good corruption is not excusable. No one is above the law. The rule is the rule don’t like it? Start funding law suits a start pushing your  politician friends to change the laws around NFA. Things like this are the best thing to happen. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Thumpy

[SGT Fish]

7 minutes ago, Thumpy said:

While I hope they beat the case an don’t get convicted… this is good corruption isn’t not excusable. No one is above the law. The rule is the rule don’t like it? Start funding law suits a start pushing your  politician friends to change the laws around NFA. Things like this are the best thing to happen. 

No one has been convicted. But I am interested to see how it will turn out. They basically will have to prove that the sheriff was lying. Which could be hard unless they have some emails or messages between him and the dealer. 

 

I fully agree corruption is bad. But this is the definition of a victimless crime. Even the govt didn't lose a penny. I however, do lose some money to the SAF, FPC, and Larosiere's war chest fund

[Thumpy]

7 minutes ago, SGT Fish said:

No one has been convicted. But I am interested to see how it will turn out. They basically will have to prove that the sheriff was lying. Which could be hard unless they have some emails or messages between him and the dealer. 

 

I fully agree corruption is bad. But this is the definition of a victimless crime. Even the govt didn't lose a penny. I however, do lose some money to the SAF, FPC, and Larosiere's war chest fund

I’d imagine that police chief has arrested plenty of folks for victimless crimes during his time as a police officer. So I can’t feel to bad for him.

[JECIII]

This is why back in the day when. I did a demo letter I always created a sign in sheet for the demo and sometimes would video as proof that it occurred.  

Wtf do they mean 1 gun was suitable for combat only.  How do they determine that.  Shit Portland, Philly and some cities like Baltimore are a war zone with crime

 

I agree thisbisbthe sort of shit that screws it up for all of us.

[StrangeRanger]

The "suitable for combat only" refers to the M249 SAW.  It may be a bit of a stretch to argue that the Frederick Co. MD has a legitimate foreseeable need for one.  However this crap has caused ATF to clamp down on belt-feds and there are a lot of PDs such as big city SWAT teams or rural Sheriffs along the Southern border who arguably have a legitimate need for but cannot get one thanks to scum like this guy.

[Thumpy]

7 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

The "suitable for combat only" refers to the M249 SAW.  It may be a bit of a stretch to argue that the Frederick Co. MD has a legitimate foreseeable need for one.  However this crap has caused ATF to clamp down on belt-feds and there are a lot of PDs such as big city SWAT teams or rural Sheriffs along the Southern border who arguably have a legitimate need for but cannot get one thanks to scum like this guy.

Out of curiosity do you know of any time a belt fed was used by Leo in America in any “legitimate” capacity ? Because I’ve hardly been able to find cases of them using mag fed mgs out there.? 

[Got Uzi]

Does Waco count?? Lol

[BrettBaker]

Thumpy, Gary Paul Johnson wrote an article in which he claimed there could be a legitimate need for a belt-fed for law enforcement. I am not kidding; it was a review of an OOW M240.

[Aaron in Mohnton Pa]

@Thumpy - TheTexas Highway Patrol uses quite a few beltfeds to patrol the border region. Differnent circumstances, I know. But they are Police Officers who legitimately use and need belt guns. 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Aaron in Mohnton Pa

[Thumpy]

2 minutes ago, Aaron in Mohnton Pa said:

@Thumpy - TheTexas Highway Patrol uses quite a few beltfeds to patrol the border region. Differnent circumstances, I know. But they are Police Officers who legitimately use and need belt guns. 

 

Thanks Aaron. This is exactly what I wanted to see honestly. In the mid west I’ve not really seen them have them for any other reason than range toys that’s why I was asking. But that does look like a potential legitimate reason for use. Very cool !

[mattnh]

I think they are pretty common on harbor patrol boats in most major cities (at least on the East coast). E.g. NYC, Boston.  Although, prob just on the Coast Guard boats where it is standard day-2-day setup…

Edited April 11, 2023 by mattnh

[Thumpy]

13 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

Does Waco count?? Lol

Lol idk if we could count that as a legitimate use, they murdered what almost 70 unarmed women an children? 

[StrangeRanger]

The real question may be whether there were situations in which belt-feds could have and should have been available but were not.  One incident that comes to mind is the SLA shootout in which the LAPD were taking fire from, among other things, a BAR and were mostly armed with handguns and shotguns with a few ARs.  Possibly another is the Philadelphia MOVE bombing.  If the PD had superior firepower maybe they wouldn't have felt compelled to blow up the entire block.

 

[United Surplus Arms]

23 minutes ago, StrangeRanger said:

The real question may be whether there were situations in which belt-feds could have and should have been available but were not.  One incident that comes to mind is the SLA shootout in which the LAPD were taking fire from, among other things, a BAR and were mostly armed with handguns and shotguns with a few ARs.  Possibly another is the Philadelphia MOVE bombing.  If the PD had superior firepower maybe they wouldn't have felt compelled to blow up the entire block.

 

I agree with you in these instances, but the police were outgunned in those situations. (also the NORCO bank robbery and the FBI shootout with Platt/Maddox)

 These days, most agencies have A/R platforms, which are sufficient for the vast majority of firefights.

 

[StrangeRanger]

Forgot about Norco but that was a situation in which a belt-fed might not have been particularly useful; there would have been way too much collateral damage with moving targets in a crowded urban environment.  Both SLA and MOVE were barricaded shooters in which pouring suppressing fire into the barricade would not have created risk to others.

As to Platt/Maddox, the FBI have access to almost anything short of tactical nukes. They could have and should have been better armed knowing what sort of weaponry they were up against.  They "brought a knife to a gun fight" and paid the price.  Deploying a belt-fed in that environment would have been time consuming and risky at best.  I agree that a couple of M16s loaded with penetrators would have changed that outcome for the better

[mattnh]

59 minutes ago, StrangeRanger said:

The real question may be whether there were situations in which belt-feds could have and should have been available but were not.  One incident that comes to mind is the SLA shootout in which the LAPD were taking fire from, among other things, a BAR and were mostly armed with handguns and shotguns with a few ARs.  Possibly another is the Philadelphia MOVE bombing.  If the PD had superior firepower maybe they wouldn't have felt compelled to blow up the entire block.

 

As always, I'd guess they are mostly useful in LE situations where they end up not actually being fired (similar to most LE firearm use).

A display of overwhelming LE power (and willingness to escalate & employ it) is useful in some circumstances.

 

For example, the Texas State Patrol likely doesn't receive many potshots from the Mexican side of the boarder cruising

along the Rio Grande in their gunboats (as pictured above) vs. what they would encounter cruising along in a rubber Zodiac....

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

[SGT Fish]

The real question is "does/should the ATF have the ability to determine what is suitable police equipment?"

 

Most know that I don't think police should have anything we don't, but why does the BATFE have this decision making authority? Wouldn't the DOJ be more in-line with policing police? Would the BATFE deny a form 3 transfer directly to the agency? Would they deny a form 10 for a surrendered m249? 

[Got Uzi]

IMHO-at this point it might just be as simple as this-deny anything and everything unless it is directly a PD/LEO typically used weapon and then sort out what is really being used and what is play toys for dealers and their LEO buddies. This seems to be the case due to the abuse of dealers over the years and that’s why we find ourselves in this situation. 
 

I agree that there are things that don’t make sense with this, but when someone is getting a law letter for an M60, 1928 Thompson, PPsH-41, MG42 or other “vintage” MG’s….it’s pretty damn obvious what’s going on. Hell even someone getting a letter for an M2HB should raise a “red flag” as to “what the hell are they going to use that for?!” I also agree that a PD in gang land USA could do with an M249 or even an M240 as a show of force, given what cartels are rolling with now, but for the most part, these “demo letter guns” aren’t being used for that. 

[Thumpy]

Idk until machineguns are considered in common use an 922 (o) is repealed I’d prefer cops not having mgs as a whole. I mean truthfully most cops can hardly shoot their side arms effectively do we really want to give them something that would most likely do nothing but cause more civilian’s being hurt? No right or wrong answer’s I guess I’ve just seen police over the years become so militant towards civilians also I don’t really want them to be that capable of a force… arresting people for going to church during Covid… forcibly shutting down peoples businesss… just doesn’t sit right with me.

[StrangeRanger]

Nobody has advocated for having an M249 in the gun rack of patrol cars.  However if there is a barricade situation like those described above, the SWAT unit should have the ability to rain fire on the criminals until they either give up or die.

FWIW a few years ago I heard a Border Patrol agent describe the skirmishes with the drogueros in the AZ desert as small unit infantry battles.  The smugglers are largely ex-military, often former Mexican SF guys, and better trained and better equipped than the USBP.  The local sheriffs who get thrown into that mix are at an even worse disadvantage when it comes to firepower.

[StrangeRanger]

I agree with you 100% about the militarization of our police being a bad thing.  The program of surplusing out DoD weaponry to PDs is essentially an end run around Posse Comitatus.  It really doesn't matter whether the guy pointing the machinegun at you is wearing  blue or green.  I would argue for heavily demilitarizing the vast bulk of police agencies but carving out paramilitary SWAT units who are equipped and trained accordingly and who do not share their weaponry with the rest of the force

[Thumpy]

52 minutes ago, StrangeRanger said:

I agree with you 100% about the militarization of our police being a bad thing.  The program of surplusing out DoD weaponry to PDs is essentially an end run around Posse Comitatus.  It really doesn't matter whether the guy pointing the machinegun at you is wearing  blue or green.  I would argue for heavily demilitarizing the vast bulk of police agencies but carving out paramilitary SWAT units who are equipped and trained accordingly and who do not share their weaponry with the rest of the force

I trust the cartels with automatic weapons more than I trust America law enforcement with them Lmfaoooo 

[MontanaRenegade86]

3 hours ago, Thumpy said:

I trust the cartels with automatic weapons more than I trust America law enforcement with them Lmfaoooo 

I really wish I could argue this, but I can't.

Our politicians and their enforcers have not done a very good job in upholding our Constitution. 

A close relative of mine just left LE due to abuse and corruption by higher up stooges. 

[Mississippijoe]

I'm trying to figure out why that boat has 4 MG's mounted on the stern, are they being chased or doing the chasing?

Edited April 12, 2023 by Mississippijoe
Mis-count

[Got Uzi]

With all the crap cops have to deal with and the whole "defund" movement...guess what went away first...yep you guessed it...TRAINING!!  Most departments don't have a big enough budget to get their guys/gals on the range enough to keep them proficient.  Now that being said....youd think that those same ofificers would take it upon themselves to stay proficient with their duty weapon as its their butt on the line, but sadly many only shoot the minimum requirement for yearly qualification.

[JoshNC]

At the core, requiring law letters for dealers is unconstitutional. 922(o) and most of the 68 GCA are unconstitutional. Taxing a constitutionally enshrined right is unconstitutional. We should be fighting against all of these things with strategic court challenges instead of berating someone for breaking unconstitutional laws.

[Thumpy]

40 minutes ago, JoshNC said:

At the core, requiring law letters for dealers is unconstitutional. 922(o) and most of the 68 GCA are unconstitutional. Taxing a constitutionally enshrined right is unconstitutional. We should be fighting against all of these things with strategic court challenges instead of berating someone for breaking unconstitutional laws.

The problem is the cop only(allegedly) broke unconstitutional laws when it benefited him and his friends… that’s corruption.

[JECIII]

@Aaron I was looking for that sa m e Texas dps article there was a gfeT writeup a b out 10 years ago. If I remember correctly there is a hk auto 40mm on it as well

[Aaron in Mohnton Pa]

@JECIII , I would not be surprised at all if they had belt guns other than their M240s …. I have only seen photos of the 240s on all their gun boats though. 
 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Aaron in Mohnton Pa

[mattnh]

Lol, nice boat - I guess that’s what access to unlimited seizure funds can buy…

[JECIII]

That's the one

[Thumpy]

Honestly I bet that boat is a hoot to use haha

[rodfarva]

Honest opinion...yet another DOJ witch hunt

[MontanaRenegade86]

11 hours ago, Aaron in Mohnton Pa said:

@JECIII , I would not be surprised at all if they had belt guns other than their M240s …. I have only seen photos of the 240s on all their gun boats though. 
 

 

That's pretty 'effin sweet.

If the Montana Legislature gets the Home Guard Revitalization Act pushed through in 2025, I hope we can get some of these vessels for our new naval militia. 

https://leg.mt.gov/bills/2023/lchtml/LC3919.htm

Didn't get it introduced in time this year, so our next opportunity is in 2025. 

[Thumpy]

14 minutes ago, MontanaRenegade86 said:

That's pretty 'effin sweet.

If the Montana Legislature gets the Home Guard Revitalization Act pushed through in 2025, I hope we can get some of these vessels for our new naval militia. 

https://leg.mt.gov/bills/2023/lchtml/LC3919.htm

Didn't get it introduced in time this year, so our next opportunity is in 2025. 

Wow that bill looks mega based sir! Hope y’all do get it passed !

[MontanaRenegade86]

21 hours ago, Thumpy said:

Wow that bill looks mega based sir! Hope y’all do get it passed !

It's success lies in electing the right kind of legislators and re-electing the current Governor in 2024, and, in being able to convince all of them that it's a good idea.

The Montana Home Guard exists in statute, although I don't think it's been active since the 1940's or 50's.

[glassmountains]

On 4/10/2023 at 4:40 PM, Thumpy said:

Out of curiosity do you know of any time a belt fed was used by Leo in America in any “legitimate” capacity ? Because I’ve hardly been able to find cases of them using mag fed mgs out there.? 

Some State and Federal prisons back in the 20's through the 60/70's had 1917 Brownings mounted in their guard towers.   https://smallarmsreview.com/the-san-quentin-browning-machine-gun/

Back in, ca. 1984 the Texas Department of Public Safety sold 5 M2 .50's and 20 ANM2's at public auction.  They had been in use at the TDC (Texas Department of Corrections).  I ended up with the 5 M2's.  They also sold around 20 Thompsons.  Unfortunately, some of them did not have papers.

Edited May 12, 2023 by glassmountains

[Josey Wales]

On 4/12/2023 at 4:11 AM, JECIII said:

@Aaron I was looking for that sa m e Texas dps article there was a gfeT writeup a b out 10 years ago. If I remember correctly there is a hk auto 40mm on it as well

You may be thinking of a Baton Rouge Parish Sheriff's Office boat with a MK19 on it.