Another Small Town Police Chief Arrested for signing 90 LE Letters

[duza9999]

Another police chief charged for signing for 90 post samples for a small town 3 officer Police Department. Including a M60 and multiple denied requests for a M134 Minigun.

This started in 2018 and continued until August of this year.

This is only fucking LE letters further and is why ATF is now calling PD’s directly grilling them if they have city funds available, why even more demo requests are coming back as not suitable for LE use for guns outside of the norm (I.E. UZI’s) and post sample transfers are being slow walked even when they eventually get approved.

God help us all when they change the CFR and do away with no LE letter transfers when going out of business due to the gross abuse of it by people giving up a new license every few years.

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/crime-and-courts/2022/12/15/iowa-police-chief-charged-over-illegal-machine-gun-resales/69731562007/

Edited December 17, 2022 by duza9999

[Aaron in Mohnton Pa]

Thanks for posting this. I would not have seen it otherwise. certainly things like this are going to draw more scrutiny toward law letters.

Aaron

[Thumpy]

Honestly if the avg American can’t buy cheap newly made mgs I don’t think law enforcement in America should be able to either. This is America they don’t need “weapons of war” lol. Also the atf cracking down on demo letters (an ffls as of late it seems)  it’s only going to increase the prices of transferable’s… if you want to own mgs Buy a transferable… don’t like that option? Start lobbying to get 922(o) removed Or get the NFA repealed. Best thing that can happen would be them to crack down on post samples for FFL’s to get motivated to start pushing politicians for change.  I’m sure many of you will disagree. But I think that is the only way many of you will be even remotely motivated to care about the future of gun rights since most of you have the mentality of “let’s not do anything”.

[Got Uzi]

This is being discussed in another thread too. I posted that story in it and it goes to show how a few people playing the system are gonna screw everyone in the end. 
 

While I like the idea of lobbying to get some of the NFA fixed or repealed, I’m more of a “let sleeping dogs lie” as it could drastically backfire. In this political climate there is nothing good that could come from it. Most of those in congress have no idea what you can or can’t own anyhow. 

[johnsonlmg41]

2 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

This is being discussed in another thread too. I posted that story in it and it goes to show how a few people playing the system are gonna screw everyone in the end. 
 

 

The reality is of all the guys I know with 02/07's and post samples, I can only think of one or two guys that have actually made sales to LE, the rest are all range and rental toys, so it's not just a few, it's probably better than 95%.   A quick look at the mfr list and guns produced/excise tax bears this out, but feel free to flame me.

I actually now spend some "gun money" on political campaigns, obviously not many do or we wouldn't be in this situation?  This is actually real prepping, the food hoarders are just hoarders.  Many politicians won't be happy until they "put y'all back in chains".  The mask is the first link of the chain.

Yes, transferables are going up, the longer you wait the harder it becomes.  Dump your post samples and SOT's now while you can, or hold on like the crypto guys?  IIRC the writing has been on the wall like graffiti on a train car for at least 15 years? LOL

I guess the good news is these guys didn't really break any actual laws that I can see regarding the guns, the bad news is they are going down on some charges because they have no money left for legal defense, they spent it all on post samples?

Edited December 17, 2022 by johnsonlmg41

[United Surplus Arms]

1 hour ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

I guess the good news is these guys didn't really break any actual laws that I can see regarding the guns, the bad news is they are going down on some charges because they have no money left for legal defense, they spent it all on post samples?

Pretty sure that making a false statement on a NFA application is a felony.  That's one of the charges.  I'm no attorney but if you say they are for LE, and you then sell them at your store or rent them out, that a jury would not be very sympathetic.

[Side Arm Sams]

The CLEO was one of the actual dealers’ in this case, to further complicate the issue. He knew what he was doing.  Acquiring post samples that were never intended as sales samples and flipping them for a profit. He shot himself (no pun intended) in the foot when he tried to acquire the M134. Yeah, he really needed that in a town of 800 residents. Can’t fix stupid. 

[Schmeisser Guy]

Well, to be honest almost ALL 02/07 use their license to buy cheap MGs for themselves. I think ATF is right to stop that nonsense. NO PD needs MGs anyway. The cheap goat dealers can buy transferables like everyone else. I really do hope ATF cracks down on dealers doing this.

[Got Uzi]

I have a couple post samples that were done to see if I could do them. Most of my post samples are for doing demos or weapons testing. I guess I’m one of the odd 07/02’s that has bought the transferable or pre sample versions of what I wanna keep. If they (BATFE) changed the rules tomorrow, I could dump all my post samples and not care. At most it would be an inconvenience of having to round Robin my Fleming sear around HK hosts when doing demos vs having multiple post sample packs. 
 

I personally blame BATFE for creating this monster. They allowed people to use the system and not do anything until it got out of hand (what we have now)   
 

Even before I became an 07/02, I questioned why there were places getting “LE Demo letters” on belt fed weapons or anything that wasn’t a realistic duty weapon. If a PD wanted a demo on a Thompson as they used to have one, ok I’ll buy that. Wanting a demo on an M240, M249, or M134….unless you are a southern border state with major narco issues, that would be hard to explain the need for. 

[rodfarva]

Where is the outrage about the ATF being able to make up the rules as they go?

Or outrage against the Hughes amendment?

Or outrage against the NFA Act of 1934 or the GCA of 1968?

All of these violate the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the USA.  
 

I’m a private owner of several transferable machine guns and I’m an RP and business partner of an 07/02.   While I realize it would never happen, I’d not be disappointed if all of these regulations went by the wayside.  

[fifthmdec]

8 minutes ago, rodfarva said:

Where is the outrage about the ATF being able to make up the rules as they go?

Or outrage against the Hughes amendment?

Or outrage against the NFA Act of 1934 or the GCA of 1968?

All of these violate the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the USA.  
 

I’m a private owner of several transferable machine guns and I’m an RP and business partner of an 07/02.   While I realize it would never happen, I’d not be disappointed if all of these regulations went by the wayside.  

Realistically, incremental changes is the best path to addressing the above issues. The politicalized government agency will not let up in attempts to circumvent current law in order widen the definition of what a frame or SBR. The  1968GCA and the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act in which contains the Hughes amendment. Those two pieces of legislation changed the way NFA rules are applied after the NFA act of 1934.

Agreed, that the abuse of the LE demo letter is out there, but is there enough empirical evidence to warrant broad brush solutions as some have listed in this thread?  I seriously doubt if any of us have that information. We know that the ATF is currently reviewing any PS LE demo letter transfers. Seems that it’s in the ATFs preview within the current law. If it’s not. Then that is out there for litigation.

A more realistic approach for the ATF is to make it mandatory to require registration and the yearly compliance with ITAR. 07/02 holders that play the no law letter game for a quick buck. Might think twice about as guys put it, “gaming the system.”  

Currently the ITAR compliance fee is $2,270 per year. The word has been out for a few years, even though there has been different definitions and some confusion about the implications of having to comply or not out there in NFA industry land. The big manufacturers companies comply. I can only base my opinion in as far as the small business 07/02 SOTs that I’ve broached this subject, have told me that t most  do not comply. That’s a personal choice.

The ATF doesn’t require a firearm business to open its business books, other than the ones under the purview of the ATF. It is doubtful that the ATF has the authority to use any information of a LE agency’s ability to afford to purchase any of the weapons listed on the demo letter. There may be some truth to such a scheme. If the ATF wants to create a list of acceptable weapons that most LE agencies use in the pursuit of its members duties. It would be better if it were in writing and that stipulation is under the current purview of the ATF based on current NFA law passed by Congress.
 

Whether the ATF decides to enforce the DDTC ITAR compliance, remains to be seen. I get the venting and frustration out there in the industry. But, complacency is not going to accomplish anything. Ignoring the possible elephant in the room so to speak, doesn’t seem like a good game plan. Just food for thought.

 

 

[johnsonlmg41]

5 hours ago, shiklg said:

Pretty sure that making a false statement on a NFA application is a felony.  That's one of the charges.  I'm no attorney but if you say they are for LE, and you then sell them at your store or rent them out, that a jury would not be very sympathetic.

That's not how the process works.  He writes his own demo letters as chief, and does his own demos (supposedly) as owner/SOT of the gun stores, two separate entities, then after that you are free to do with them what you want.  There is nothing in the rule...and I stress rule, where you need to demonstrate "need" or whether or not you are actually going to purchase?  It would be like him test driving cars with the implication that the dept. might be ordering a Lamborghini as a new squad car.  He'll have to snitch on himself as to his "intent" when he wrote the demo letters for his firearms company? 

The irony is one LE dept. accusing another LE dept of wrongdoing.  When atf wants a particular MG, who writes their "demo" letters?  Or determines their "need"?  We still don't have an answer on who approved of them trafficking firearms to Mexico that has resulted in a lot of actual death.  I'm betting his town is pretty crime free?  Probably because of 80+ MG's?  LOL

There are depts. that have M134's and no helicopters (because not actually where the use is anymore for the benefit of the uninformed reporter), why not his?  What makes Chicago more special than bumfuck Iowa?  Ironically the places that have all the heavy equipment crime is rampant?

Maybe the town is still reeling from world's first moving train robbery and needs the firepower?  If the James gang was in your town what would you do?

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by johnsonlmg41

[United Surplus Arms]

Intent is what is going to get that chief in trouble. His intent was to make money, not demo guns for his department.

[SFG2017]

This is the reason my current demo is getting dragged through the fucking mud.  Took us 105 days from submission of the form 3 to get approved and they denied the 240B because we already had a 240D wanting to be tested.  Two different variants of a gun that share the same receiver.   

Before anyone chimes in that no LE agency needs these types of weapons that all depends on the terrain and possible threats they might have.  In their case they have a large liquid gas storage facility being built that is going to supply a tri state area.  Being extremely dangerous and a needed natural resource makes it a good infrastructure target for terrorism.  That combined with their terrain of hills and valleys makes the 240 and 249 good weapons for them if such an event occurs.

[Side Arm Sams]

Before all this (2) post samples per letter, you could get what you wanted in any quantity, regardless. But you can thank James Carmi

& Vic's Guns for destroying that privilege. And that particular case my friends, is what has made the (2) samples per model a law (so to speak)

that you know of now. This was about 1999 or so. But this post sample thing has been festering for decades. These little town cops with little town mentalities

is what crushes those liberties. Most can see past their nose and think everyone is on their playing level. Stupid is all I can say. Ruining it for the masses.

 

[Thumpy]

1 hour ago, SFG2017 said:

This is the reason my current demo is getting dragged through the fucking mud.  Took us 105 days from submission of the form 3 to get approved and they denied the 240B because we already had a 240D wanting to be tested.  Two different variants of a gun that share the same receiver.   

Before anyone chimes in that no LE agency needs these types of weapons that all depends on the terrain and possible threats they might have.  In their case they have a large liquid gas storage facility being built that is going to supply a tri state area.  Being extremely dangerous and a needed natural resource makes it a good infrastructure target for terrorism.  That combined with their terrain of hills and valleys makes the 240 and 249 good weapons for them if such an event occurs.

Lol I’d say local cops shouldn’t be left with the task of guarding that if it’s something that may be targeted it should be contracted out for security/ be under federal control. Cops don’t need anything more then a handgun a shot gun and a rifle. We seen plenty of cops recently stand out side while a school shooting was happening they did nothing. Let’s be real that tells me they are the last people I ever want to be left to guard anything of any value they didn’t even have the balls to defend the life of children.

[SFG2017]

13 minutes ago, Thumpy said:

Lol I’d say local cops shouldn’t be left with the task of guarding that if it’s something that may be targeted it should be contracted out for security/ be under federal control. Cops don’t need anything more then a handgun a shot gun and a rifle. We seen plenty of cops recently stand out side while a school shooting was happening they did nothing. Let’s be real that tells me they are the last people I ever want to be left to guard anything of any value they didn’t even have the balls to defend the life of children.

Under the same federal jurisdiction that decided to leave $85B worth of weaponry with terrorists?

No thanks, I work with these guys and would trust them any day over our government.   They are there to defend their town and their families.  Not all police officers are pussies like the ones in Uvalde. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by SFG2017
Spelling error

[Thumpy]

3 minutes ago, SFG2017 said:

Under the same federal jurisdiction that decided to leave $85B worth of weaponry with terrorists?

No thanks, I work with these guys and would trust them any day over our government.   They are their to defend their town and their families.  Not all police officers are pussies like the ones in Uvalde. 

While I’d love to believe you… there is to much evidence contradicting you. Not only that cops where the ones enforcing church closures during Covid being little tyrant henchmen in many places… last thing I want is them to have a belt fed. “Just following orders” is something they all where way to confident saying lol. 

[SFG2017]

2 minutes ago, Thumpy said:

While I’d love to believe you… there is to much evidence contradicting you. Not only that cops where the ones enforcing church closures during Covid being little tyrant henchmen in many places… last thing I want is them to have a belt fed. “Just following orders” is something they all where way to confident saying lol. 

I understand your view point and agree with you on the part with those police that did that.  But I will remind you that most of that BS eas part of political agendas and happened in blue cities. 

The Sheriff's Office I work with has "good people" that found that stuff just as disgusting as you and I.  

No need to go on further with discussing why I work with them. The point I was trying to make is that the farming of LE letters makes it harder on the other SOT's with legitimate business transactions.

[taylorwso]

9 hours ago, Schmeisser Guy said:

Well, to be honest almost ALL 02/07 use their license to buy cheap MGs for themselves. I think ATF is right to stop that nonsense. NO PD needs MGs anyway. The cheap goat dealers can buy transferables like everyone else. I really do hope ATF cracks down on dealers doing this.

wtf, youre mad at the 07s and want to fuck em over, and you cannot see this its the ATF fault as they make up the rules.

you shouldn't be on a gun board because you dont really believe in the 2nd

 

[taylorwso]

3 hours ago, SFG2017 said:

Being extremely dangerous and a needed natural resource makes it a good infrastructure target for terrorism.  That combined with their terrain of hills and valleys makes the 240 and 249 good weapons for them if such an event occurs.

unless the dept has adoptive military tactics and train to them, a beltfed wont help them out.

decent optics/training go a hell of a lot further than a beltfed.  But they should still be able to get whatever they want.

[taylorwso]

4 hours ago, shiklg said:

Intent is what is going to get that chief in trouble. His intent was to make money, not demo guns for his department.

nope,  selling dept guns and keeping the cash is what got him. The intent won't even be mentioned in court. Too hard to prove and not needed since the charges for the money will give plenty and probably a couple tax issues as well. 

[Thumpy]

9 minutes ago, taylorwso said:

wtf, youre mad at the 07s and want to fuck em over, and you cannot see this its the ATF fault as they make up the rules.

you shouldn't be on a gun board because you dont really believe in the 2nd

 

One could argue 07s give us machinegun owners a bad name lmfaoooo  

[Schmeisser Guy]

9 minutes ago, taylorwso said:

wtf, youre mad at the 07s and want to fuck em over, and you cannot see this its the ATF fault as they make up the rules.

you shouldn't be on a gun board because you dont really believe in the 2nd

 

Not mad but they can buy transferables like everyone else. They want to game the system like you. And the NFA should be abolished so I don't know what the hell you are talking about.

[BrettBaker]

Now guys, Gary Paul Johnson wrote an article in which he argued police have situations where they could use belt-feds...... I found it a bit of a stretch, tbh.

[United Surplus Arms]

10 hours ago, taylorwso said:

nope,  selling dept guns and keeping the cash is what got him. The intent won't even be mentioned in court. Too hard to prove and not needed since the charges for the money will give plenty and probably a couple tax issues as well. 

Intent is an element of every crime (except strict liability statutes like a simple traffic violation). Intent must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, just like all the other elements of a crime in a criminal trial.  Intent is not the same as motive, which does not have to be demonstrated in court.

[Got Uzi]

Sure let’s make a PD have to equip its team with transferable M16’s or MP5’s….hell most of them don’t have budgets to buy ammo to properly train their officers.
 

While I agree that not all road officers “need” a select fire weapon, I wouldn’t be opposed to it IF they were trained properly on how to employ.  If you really wanna get done to the honest side of it-NO ONE “needs” a machine gun and I’ll go out on a limb and say 50% of NFA owners have no clue how to properly control and employ a machine gun. The ones I’m referring to those who think it’s only function is to mag or belt dump….ballistic masterbation….

 

The system, like most in this country is broken and only getting worse. People are only worried about making a quick Buck and don’t give a damn about the repercussions on others. This entire discussion is my case in point-let’s make a quick but by getting an SOT then drop it to sell off stuff and hugely inflated prices.  

Edited December 18, 2022 by Got Uzi

[johnsonlmg41]

12 hours ago, taylorwso said:

nope,  selling dept guns and keeping the cash is what got him. The intent won't even be mentioned in court. Too hard to prove and not needed since the charges for the money will give plenty and probably a couple tax issues as well. 

In the end, you are so far the only one that is correct.  All the administrative BS about samples, letters, etc. doesn't have much basis in actual prosecutable law.  They'll likely add some mail fraud in there somehow.  If you're old enough you'll remember the Ernie Wrenn case.  Unregistered plates, illegal uppers, etc.   In the end he got mail fraud because all the rest of it is made up rules and difficult if not impossible to defend all of these rules over the 2nd amendment.

We had a dept. here sell some transferable guns.  The dept. spent the money on other equipment.  That's actually not legal since and funds collected become general revenue for the county and was not theirs to spend.  This is the same shaky ground atf is on since they are not allowed by law to collect SOT or NFA tax payments, only the treasury dept. has that privilege. 

I try to follow the rules personally, but in the end we are now a third world country with different rules for different people and I guess when this guy has his day in court we'll see what class he's in?  Maybe he's a drug user and lied about it on the FFL app.?  Or can you only do that on a 4473?

[Got Uzi]

It depends on how the county is setup OR if the CLEO gets permission to sell off the equipment to reinvest it in other items. There was a whole process in my county when they sold off their transferable 21AC Colt Thompson some years back. 
 

You can only lie on a 4473 if you have a certain name….

[Schmeisser Guy]

1 hour ago, Got Uzi said:

Is the guy saying PD’s should have to buy transferables the same one who said the wrong side won the war in Europe during WWII? If so, you might wanna get your head checked, if not, disregard last transmission. 

I meant dealers should buy transferables not PDs. Most dealers buy them to have cheap MGs to shoot. I know you know that. Quit acting retarded. Sheesh

[johnsonlmg41]

15 minutes ago, Got Uzi said:

It depends on how the county is setup OR if the CLEO gets permission to sell off the equipment to reinvest it in other items. There was a whole process in my county when they sold off their transferable 21AC Colt Thompson some years back. 
 

You can only lie on a 4473 if you have a certain name….

thanks for the clarification.  I keep getting that confused with the posters I saw up at FBI headquarters that said "Go ahead and lie for the other guy".

[Got Uzi]

Your comment did not clarify as to whom should have to by transferable MG’s so hence the question and you can politely kiss my ass thinking I’m a sheep/uneducated as to what happened in history. I have read my share of history books and had several conversations with veterans. I can base my opinions on such sources and not from Hollyweird bullshit thank you. 
 

The county commissioners signed off that any and all proceeds from the sale of items from the department was to be rolled back into the department. Any excess was to then go back into the county funds. Here it’s pretty much the same as departments selling off confiscated weapons from the evidence locker, city or county has to approve the sale and they can then use the money for whatever equipment they need and excess goes into the city or county fund.  It’s not a bad thing as far as I see it, it saves the tax payers from having to fund more when they can just trade up/trade out old for new. But I’ve found different areas have different rules to play by when it comes to this. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Got Uzi

[Got Uzi]

Damn talk about being a mature adult, sure goes to show the liberal mentality here, idiot, oh I’m so hurt and have no idea how I’ll be able to go living with myself….oh wait I’ll just get out one of my post sample machine guns and shoot it since that’s the only reason I have them according to you….or maybe I’ll just keep building HK roller lock host guns and make money while I can until the real idiots ruin the SOT process and puts a new guy out of business. 
 

Merry Christmas from the Black Sheep of the Family…

 

[Thumpy]

Got uzi with all do respect you literally started the name calling. Don’t go playing victim now. 

[Schmeisser Guy]

17 minutes ago, Thumpy said:

Got uzi with all do respect you literally started the name calling. Don’t go playing victim now. 

Thank you, Thumpy. I appreciate it.

[Schmeisser Guy]

33 minutes ago, Got Uzi said:

Damn talk about being a mature adult, sure goes to show the liberal mentality here, idiot, oh I’m so hurt and have no idea how I’ll be able to go living with myself….oh wait I’ll just get out one of my post sample machine guns and shoot it since that’s the only reason I have them according to you….or maybe I’ll just keep building HK roller lock host guns and make money while I can until the real idiots ruin the SOT process and puts a new guy out of business. 
 

Merry Christmas from the Black Sheep of the Family…

 

Well, to be honest, YOU were the one that started talking about something that had NOTHING to do with the thread. YOU were the one that was mentally upset. Perhaps YOU are one of the dealers doing things that are at BEST very Grey area things and at worst bordering on illegal if not illegal. I hope you have a good attorney on retainer because one day ATF just might begin to prosecute. And then you will be in a pickle!!!

And for the record, the First Amendment protects speech we hate not speech we agree with. Sometimes, I think you forget that.

Thank you for allowing me my First Amendment right.

Merry Christmas and I hope you have a Happy and Healthy New Year

[StrangeRanger]

Sorry to inform you but he builds and papers the guns as semi-autos SBRs  with the required denial shelf ect. He demos them with his registered postie trigger pack but they go out the door as semis.  He refers his customers who want a FA to ads on this site and others for transferable sears. Full compliance.

And my father who served in WWII would say that anyone who says the wrong side won the war was the scum of the earth just like his Nazi heroes.

[Got Uzi]

Since you obviously know me better than I know myself, I bow out to your superior intellect and vast SOT experience. 
 

All of my ATF inspections have passed with flying colors and I have never requested a single NFA item on a demo letter so I don’t have a worry there either. I’m one of those 07/02’s who actually know how to and build guns, not assemble them like a Lego set. 
 

Thumpy and S Guy-when you put your money up and start your FFL/SOT’s then your arguments can carry more weight in my book.