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H&K Titled by the NFA?


Bwanalewis
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I apologize in advance, because I am sure I am not phrasing or using the correct terminology.  

I am contemplating purchasing a H&K Sear.  I am curious to how the "gun" will be documented on the paperwork  Does it state that it is a Sear?  Will it or should it be Multi Caliber (9mm, 5.56, .308) or does that matter?   I guess for my knowledge how would any of the H&Ks be documented. EX.  Uzi is either a Registered Bolt or Receiver.  Hope I have not butchered the NFA terminology too much.  I am sure the board can "school" me.  I can take it.  

Chad

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Typically F4 paperwork doesn’t say it is a sear / conversion device.   You should check box 4h to make sure it isn’t married to a host gun.

For a sear/conversion device -  Cal entry doesn’t matter.  Often it will be marked N/A.  OAL should also be N/A.  Usually there is a model but not always.

There are other types of H&K conversion devices that aren’t sears.  Also note that some sears and conversions devices are more of less desirable effecting value significantly.

 

Hope that helps,

— Matt

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3 hours ago, mattnh said:

Typically F4 paperwork doesn’t say it is a sear / conversion device.  

Just curious...what is your experience with how your papered sears are identified in box 4b?  Cause my RDIAS' are identified as "Drop In Auto Sear" in 4b and my Fleming HK sears are identified as "Machine Gun Sear" in 4b, as are the sears for my FNCs and Norrell 10/22s

3 hours ago, mattnh said:

You should check box 4h to make sure it isn’t married to a host gun.

A married sear gun is not a detractor IMO, especially if installed in the buyer's preferred host.  One less stamp to pay for and the ultimate buyer can decide if they want to divorce or not...which is not an entirely hard (or time consuming) thing to do with eFile these days. 

3 hours ago, mattnh said:

For a sear/conversion device -  Cal entry doesn’t matter.  Often it will be marked N/A.  OAL should also be N/A.  Usually there is a model but not always.

Agreed.  My Fleming sears all have "HK" in box 4d and my RDIAS' have "N/A" "AR-15" "AL" and "AS" in 4d.  FNC & 10/22 sears have "FNC" and "10/22" in 4d respectively.

3 hours ago, mattnh said:

There are other types of H&K conversion devices that aren’t sears.  Also note that some sears and conversions devices are more of less desirable effecting value significantly.

Agreed

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In my limited experience with conversion devices, Typically 4b just says MG - technically, “sear” is  not proper in that box.  Also, many conversion devices are not sears - for example a DLO Hk trigger pack conversion device is not a sear…  That being said, I have a numerous examples which do say “MG sear”

wrt a married gun - great unless the sear is present & the gun is actually missing & not divorced, lol.  Agree, usually a plus.

 

It is also possible to have a sear that can’t be divorced.  For example, Hk sear with same sn as Hk94 that also has a drilled shelf (that would be 2 mgs if divorced).  There are all sorts of improper/oddball conversions out there…

Edited by mattnh
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Most of mine say machine gun which is what is a  recognized choice now on the drop down in the pdf form area.  I have others that say machine gun sear (hand done forms) and one with nothing at all in that box.  Most of these are older submissions and these days deviating from the "standard" machine gun answer may get you a correction letter?  It can often boil down to how the original registration was recorded?

I'd have to disagree now that divorcing a sear is easy.  It was, but these days any form 4 transfer is not necessarily easy.  I just had one random transfer disapproved for no reason other than the zaminer was new.  Got corrected fairly quickly after resubmitting, but I did have to resubmit and I actually don't have it yet.  I was just told it is now being approved.  I suspect it will add close to a month for no reason.  It's just the way things are now that they are working remote, I suspect the training and resources are not there?

I do have a registered trigger pack with the same ser.# as the gun that I was able to separate from the gun, but the gun did start out life as an HK94 with shelf.

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32 minutes ago, mattnh said:

In my limited experience with conversion devices, Typically 4b just says MG - technically, “sear” is  not proper in that box.

You originally wrote "Typically F4 paperwork doesn’t say it is a sear / conversion device" which has been the opposite of my experience and the reason I asked.  I would disagree with the characterization that having "sear" (or other conversion device) in box 4b as being "improper."  If you take a look at Chapter 2 of ATF's NFA Handbook, sears, trigger boxes and all manner of conversion devices / collection of parts are recognized in pics and writing.  Further, ATF has required certain adjustments (and issued correction letters) to how Forms are filled out over the years, to include removing more than one caliber in box 4c...to my knowledge, ATF has yet to decree that "sear," "trigger box," "Drop in Auto Sear" etc. be replaced with simply "Machine Gun" and issued correction letters based on such.

48 minutes ago, mattnh said:

wrt a married gun - great unless the sear is present & the gun is actually missing & not divorced, lol.  Agree, usually a plus.

A totally insignificant exception to the rule of "married" sears.  Why assume the host hasn't been registered / divorced if not with the sear?  I once had a Fleming sear transfer to my dealer and the previous owner had left the (married host) info in 4h on the Form 4 to my dealer...a host they had previously registered / divorced, but had copied all the info on their form nonetheless.  We just removed that info in 4h for the transfer of the sear from my dealer to me.  Regardless, that would be a problem for that person possessing a restricted / potentially unregistered firearm listed previously in 4h and not a problem for the transfer of the registered sear.  If the original married host listed in 4h is not with the registered sear, the transfer form is simply completed and submitted without that host's info  in 4h.  4h is just extraneous information.

1 hour ago, mattnh said:

It is also possible to have a sear that can’t be divorced.  For example, Hk sear with same sn as Hk94 that also has a drilled shelf (that would be 2 mgs if divorced).

Again, a totally insignificant exception to the rule.  I don't know the exact # of PP Registered sear guns Vollmer made which were subsequently grandfathered by ATF, but I'd guess it's less than 20.  I haven't seen one come to market in literally years.  But yes, that would be an example of a "permanently married" sear...unless you can convince ATF to allow you to divorce the host by destruction as someone claimed on HKPro to have done so years ago.

1 hour ago, mattnh said:

There are all sorts of improper/oddball conversions out there…

No argument there...

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24 minutes ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

Most of mine say machine gun is what is a  recognized choice now on the drop down in the pdf form area.

Box 4b on the current / downloadable / editable Form 4 does not provide a drop-down choice...the type of firearm has to be typed in.  Maybe it's a drop-down choice option on an eFile Form 4?

39 minutes ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

I'd have to disagree now that divorcing a sear is easy.  It was, but these days any form 4 transfer is not necessarily easy.

Divorcing a host is carried out by registering said host listed in 4h on a Form 1...not a Form 4.  My point was that an individual can currently eFile a Form 1...which makes the process a little easier / convenient. 

And yes I realize that these days you never know when you'll get a correction letter for info on your Form 4, request for pics, or any manner of different bureaucratic nitpicks etc. etc.  Which just bolsters my earlier point...with all the other crap they're calling out Form 4s for...to my knowledge they're not sending out correction letters for "Machine Gun Sear" in 4b.

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Fwiw, If you look at the F4 instructions, the firearm  option types  are defined in the instruction (1c) definition.  They are extremely clear on “machinegun”.  I expect any extra words (eg sear, bolt, trigger, box, frame, receiver, rail, disconnector etc.) you add after that magic MG term are mostly ignored.

Similarly, any words after DD are just ignored (eg DD breach ring (the registered part on a tank main gun)).

Edited by mattnh
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Btw, the rational behind my posting a few odd exceptions for an” H&K sear” that are oddball/undesirable is that the OP didn’t provide enough information about what he is thinking about purchasing to definitively answer his question.  I tried to provide the best guidance with the info provided and also let the OP know that “h&k sear” could be a lot leas desirable things - and sometime those things get sold to new/less-experienced buyers without them understanding what they are purchasing…

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7 hours ago, mattnh said:

I expect any extra words (eg sear, bolt, trigger, box, frame, receiver, rail, disconnector etc.) you add after that magic MG term are mostly ignored.

Similarly, any words after DD are just ignored (eg DD breach ring (the registered part on a tank main gun)).

I guess we'll just have to disagree...cause I don't think ATF "ignores" -or- "mostly ignores" any info or wording placed on any Form 4, whether "extra" or not.  Try placing an "extra" caliber in 4c and see if that gets "mostly ignored." 

I will continue to place "Machine Gun Sear" or "Drop In Auto Sear" (I don't own a registered trigger box) in 4b unless / until ATF issues that correction letter to include only the "magical words."  And if they do...I'll just enter that wording (Machine Gun Sear, Drop In Auto Sear, Trigger Box) in 4h as an additional descriptor. 

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Yes,

I've separated a couple guns.  One went easy, the other required photos which I am uncomfortable providing, so while it may seem easy (emailing them) the long term implications of a photo gallery (being stored where? with access by who?) can have no good outcome.

Yes, the drop down was on eforms, my confusion.  It's been a while.  Anyone know if they are accepting e-file reactivations of MG's yet?

Contacts over 20 years with examiners tell me any deviations from standard verbiage and additional information (why would want to put in more than asked?) will potentially add to delays and possible correction letters.  It's just not the best way to go.  Yes, "conversion devices" are recognized in the regs., but examiners don't consult the regs if there is a question, they consult a supervisor or the legal dept.  and are often given poor information back, thus my recent "disapproval" on what was an easy transfer that had no odd verbiage or additional unnecessary information.  

I never add anything in 4h even on a form 1, because why would you?

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  • 2 weeks later...

I had a lightning link that transferred to me on handwritten form as auto connector in the box.

When I transferred it them made me correct to maxhinegun and pit .22lr in the caliber.  I was like wtf that's the one caliber they don't work in.  I put in machineconversion device in the extra description box

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On 11/3/2022 at 8:56 AM, JECIII said:

I had a lightning link that transferred to me on handwritten form as auto connector in the box.

When I transferred it them made me correct to maxhinegun and pit .22lr in the caliber.  I was like wtf that's the one caliber they don't work in.  I put in machineconversion device in the extra description box

Actually someone has been able to make those things run in a 22LR..

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1 hour ago, Bwanalewis said:

I was able to get the seller to give me the info. 

Model 94

Type Machine Gun

Serial # HK001. (This is not on the gun, but on the sear.)

Caliber (Blank)

Any thoughts.

Thanks,
Chad

What's the manufacturer info in box 4a?

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Fwiw, that is not one of the common transferable HK sear mfg. (Fleming/Qualified/S&H).  I’ve never seen one of his HK sear conversions - no idea if they are good/bad/primo, but the C Ray’s work that I have seen looked good.  Might make resale more difficult down the line as that mfg isn’t as well known.  I’d be interested to see a picture of it bare or installed in a trigger pack.

— Matt

 

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