Heimyguy

Form 4 Transfer questions

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Am listing a machine gun to sell and is on form 4 in NC. have sold many over the years and always form 4 to same state class 3 dealer then form 3 to other state dealer. was told that you can form 4 to other state dealer directly?  but my understanding is you could only form 4 personally within state. any clarity would help. I know everyone wants to buy one on form 3 so I was also thinking i might start the form 4 to my dealer so it can be sitting there ready to move out of state. thinking that i can always pull the form 4 if i sell it within my state. thoughts? 

 

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To a FFL with a SOT you can form 4 from another state.. Only the first page is filled. 

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Yes, you can form 4 to a dealer in another state, hence it would then be on a form 3. From there it could go form 3 to another dealer or form 4 out to individual. 

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Thanks guys appreciate the info... any thoughts on pre form 4 to my ffl sot to save some lead time? Or just lump it and keep on 4 till sells?

 

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Posted (edited)

If you have it at your dealer.. and then decide not to sell it. You'll have to pay another $200 tax stamp.. hence $400 total if you don't sell it.

This is up to you. Personally I'll keep it on a 4 so I can keep it near me. What if that dealer decides to close shop, etc. Likely not, but it isn't unheard of.

The Form 4 process to another dealer is faster than a Form 4 from dealer to individual/trust. Likely it would take up to 4 months to have it arrive at buyer's FFL. I've heard some have been approved within a month, but I haven't seen it. My last one was 4 months.

Edited by Ryo

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right on thanks.

 

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@Ryo

Don't mean to thread Hijack but i have a quick question along the lines.

Scenario: When a dealer has a silencer on a Form 3 in his inventory and he sells it, he then files a Form 4 so it can be transferred to the individual/ (Responsible Person) that purchased it.

When the Form 4 is approved  and is waiting for the purchaser to pick it up the dealer still has possession of the silencer and can cancel the Approved Form 4 at anytime BEFORE the silencer is picked up by the purchaser, because the transaction is NOT complete until the silencer is in PHYSICAL possession of the buyer.

i gave that brief scenario so i can properly set up my question

My Question:

Say i have a transferable auto sear on a Form 4 and i'm planning to sell it.

Because i know people prefer buying on a Form 3 because it's faster.

Can the sear that's on a Form 4 be filed to Form 3 to your local dealer and when the Form 3 is approved since the sear is in your physical possession you decide not to give it to your dealer until you find a buyer which could take months? But once you find a buyer you give physical possession to your dealer?

it would be just like getting your Form 4 approved but you're unable to pick it up from your dealer because you're deployed so it sit at your dealer for Months on end until you come back home stateside. OR if you end up prohibited the dealer can cancel your Form 4, refund you and sell to someone else.

So in layman terms if your sear is on a Form 4 and you file to Form 3 it to a dealer, can you hold onto the approved Form 3 and keep physical possession on the sear until you find a buyer? 

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You, as a non-licensee, would file a tax paid Form 4 not Form 3 to transfer it to your local or out of state dealer, the tax free Form 3 is only SOT to SOT.  You could conceivably hold the item indefinitely after the Form 4 has been approved though most dealers wouldn't agree to that since once the Form 4 is approved to them the item now shows up on their NFA inventory with the ATF so if they get inspected they would need to explain that the item hasn't transferred to them yet for whatever reason.  It's not illegal to delay the transfer but like I said most dealers probably wouldn't agree to do it.

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Posted (edited)

Your kind of stuck.. It can never get to a form 3 because it is on a Form 4 and not a dealer.

Form 3 has noting to do with ownership and such.. That's what people get confused on. The NFA is not on a Form 3.  A form 3 is just the transferring of a NFA from one FFL with a SOT to anothe FFL with a SOT without paying the tax stamp. Since your not a FFL with SOT you can't ever transfer it to anothe FFL without using a Form 4. Hence $200 tax stamp to the dealer or the person you want to sell to. 

If you find a local buyer (same state) , then you can form 4 direct to them. 

Oh about the holding of the item. Likely no dealer would agree to that since the part is suppose to be in their possession.. Though the time to perform a transfer to another person or dealer seems vague.  I'm not sure if I've seen any writing that the item must go to that person's inventory. One issue I can see is if the dealer disputed that they are the owner and you had it over a long period of time.. That could get you into possible trouble, but I'm just speculating. 

Edited by Ryo

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I am torn, feel like it would be good to get a jump on form 4 to my ffl sot but might add hassle/ extra step...honestly i never had any issue selling in the old days on form 4 and usually sold items within 1 to 3 days... surprised at lack of movement /offers or even questions on my factory Colt M16a1.. was wondering if it was the form 4 nowadays  being a deterrent, if it was the price usually someone would let you know you were outside the blurred lines. also was surprised at the disappearance of subguns board.. haven't sold in 4 years but i know that frank had scooped it up and changed it up. always used Sturm anyways but liked to research going prices. any info on what happened to subguns?

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11 hours ago, Ryo said:

Your kind of stuck.. It can never get to a form 3 because it is on a Form 4 and not a dealer.

Form 3 has noting to do with ownership and such.. That's what people get confused on. The NFA is not on a Form 3.  A form 3 is just the transferring of a NFA from one FFL with a SOT to anothe FFL with a SOT without paying the tax stamp. Since your not a FFL with SOT you can't ever transfer it to anothe FFL without using a Form 4. Hence $200 tax stamp to the dealer or the person you want to sell to. 

If you find a local buyer (same state) , then you can form 4 direct to them. 

Oh about the holding of the item. Likely no dealer would agree to that since the part is suppose to be in their possession.. Though the time to perform a transfer to another person or dealer seems vague.  I'm not sure if I've seen any writing that the item must go to that person's inventory. One issue I can see is if the dealer disputed that they are the owner and you had it over a long period of time.. That could get you into possible trouble, but I'm just speculating. 

All of this

Just form 4 it to the dealer, wait a few months to list it, have the dealer deal with all the paperwork/mailing. You keep the gun longest, and no dealing with a buyer that wants constant updates.

BTW if you form 4'd something to me and then did not deliver, I would call the ATF on your ass because I would have something in my inventory not in my possession. I don't know if most delaers check their inventory online but I do it every week to see which cans have been approved.

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My FFl sot is one of my best friends and I help at his shop so good option to transfer there...thanks for input.

 

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15 hours ago, Ryo said:

Oh about the holding of the item. Likely no dealer would agree to that since the part is suppose to be in their possession.. Though the time to perform a transfer to another person or dealer seems vague.  I'm not sure if I've seen any writing that the item must go to that person's inventory. One issue I can see is if the dealer disputed that they are the owner and you had it over a long period of time.. That could get you into possible trouble, but I'm just speculating. 

The other thing people get confused about is that an approved form does not convey ownership, it only approves the transfer from one entity to another.  I've had a guy take about 6 months to come pick up a suppressor after I received the approved F4, he just didn't come in, would call him every couple weeks, he was busy, out of town, etc, until he finally got around to coming in.  A similar issue could delay a transfer in the reverse instance as well and both transfer delays are perfectly legal, but as I said good luck finding a SOT who will agree to the scheme in advance.

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3 hours ago, taylorwso said:

BTW if you form 4'd something to me and then did not deliver, I would call the ATF on your ass because I would have something in my inventory not in my possession. I don't know if most delaers check their inventory online but I do it every week to see which cans have been approved.

The ATF would tell you they don't care, the form 4 is an approved transfer not a record of transfer nor a certificate of ownership, the current possessor can cancel and refund the approved Form 4 within 3 years of the tax being paid as long as the transfer has never taken place.  https://regulations.atf.gov/479-172/03-1657

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Dang! look at the brain on this guy! super sweet answer that has some documentation... can't ask for much better than that. Thanks  b_san  

:x

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