R.L.

BATFE, ..stupid is being kind

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11 posts in this topic

I'm selling a 25mm Puteaux cannon to a friend, or at least I'm trying to anyway.

For the third time on this transfer alone now , these dumb-asses have returned the Form 4, now saying now the caliber is wrong, it should be listed as a 37mm cannon!!

This is total incompetence.

Puteaux's were NEVER manufactured in 37mm, at least not the SA-LE Model of 37.

WTF is wrong with these people?

This idiot examiner saw the Model of 37, and not knowing her ass from 3rd base decided that meant'the gun was 37mm!!

A simple check of their own frigging data base would show that the Puteaux SA-LE37 cannon is manufactured in 25mm....only!

They claim they are trying to clean up the registry, really??

This is the 7th return of  a Form 4  that used the nomenclature/info on their original form 4 the transfer was drawn from, only to say I listed the information incorrectly on the new Form 4.

These people are total retards.

 

R.L.

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Posted (edited)

While your proposed scenario is entirely possible, the *usual* cause for this is some other dumbass outside the government injected the wrong data into the sewage pipe decades ago and the person who is looking at an application now has never seen a Puteaux and has no idea what caliber they were manufactured in or if anyone did or could have changed it over the years.  Now your application differs from the one the first applicant claimed was correct and the bureaucrat has no way to know who is competent, correct, or not.  My anecdotal experience has been there is far more bad data provided by applicants than is applied by the bureaucracy (which is logical given that all original specs are provided from the public/industry).

 

P.S. If you happen to be the original registrant and have your F-1/F-2/F-6/4467 showing it as 25mm, sending a copy in should hopefully cure it if it was a ATTU/ATF error.  If you really did get an employee who is projecting the model into the caliber.... get some ibuprofen and send me a PM.

Edited by The Lone Ranger
P.S.

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Bottom line there is no excuse for this type of mistake. In light of the well known fact that the NFA registry is full of mistakes, it's incumbent upon ATF to verify all the information entered into the registry they are currently trying to correct, is accurate.

Merely copying down what has been recorded before in the existing registry is irresponsible AND again part of the government worker mentality. Don't extend yourself by doing some additional research or verifying the information first. Just send the form/forms back to incur another additional 2-3 months of wasted time while finding something else to hold up the transfer.... sheesh after all that's not a part of your job...or is it?

Having been a Federal employee over 45 years ago, I'm well aware of this government employee mentality that pervades government workers. I worked on Capital Hill with an agency that supports the US Congress.The depth and width of the internal screw ups, drug use, drinking alcohol on the job, government property theft, and on and on is staggering.

On my first review I was actually written up ..FOR DOING TOO MUCH WORK. That's right, I was making the others that were well entrenched within this cesspool system of governmental incompetence from looking bad. I couldn't believe it. I was asked to not work so hard. This was circa 1971.

Now before I bring down the ire of all the government employees out there, that's not to say that there are not dedicated, intelligent employees within the various government agencies. I know there are , I've worked with a few, but certainly they are not a majority within the overall pool of employee's.

Unfortunately, these few are the people that are forced to correct the blatant mistakes made by the other incompetent clock riders that allow these mistakes to occur from the beginning.

If this type of incompetence happened in private industry, you'd be fired pretty quick. In the private sector you get paid to perform a job and will be judged on your personal merit. It's much harder to hide your incompetence. The government PROMOTES incompetence due to the race,gender, sexual orientation , feel good, everyone's OK b.s.agenda they feel obliged to accommodate. 

We have all become conditioned in the NFA community to accept this type of B.S.attitude because we all want our toys, and don't dare say anything. I ask you why? You are paying a $200 tax for this antiquated,drawn out procedure. It's not like they are giving you something for nothing. One frigging year to sign off on a form 4. That's total non-sense. This process should take no more than 2 weeks. What if it took 1 year to buy a car, a home, property??

We pay an excessive, discriminatory, burdensome and financially oppressive tax to own this stuff, the least you can do it do it in a timely, professional and courteous manner. And  in spite of paying this tax we get treated like 2nd class citizens.

Sorry I'll never accept this attitude .I've been in the private sector too long. If you can perform your job, you get fired and hire those that can do the job, efficiently in a couteous timely manner.

Yea right that's really going to happen.

Rant off.

 

R.L.

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Please accept my apology and consider the offer of assistance rescinded - I had no intention of winding you or anyone else up, just to point out something that frequently occurs so you might consider the possibility that you may actually be in a contest with the original registrant rather than the research contractor who sent your form back and if so, adjust tactics accordingly.  I detest the inefficiency and corruption in government almost as much as you - maybe even as much - but expecting a form reviewer to be intimately versed in the manufacture of the Puteaux and knowing there is no way anyone could ever change a caliber on one so as to spot the original registrant as incompetent and you as competent when most "gun people" could not recognize one by sight or name is not realistic.  The overwhelming majority of birth certificates in the NFRTR were submitted by non-government entities; collectors/shooters, manufacturers, and importers who occasionally did not worry about descriptive data that much and when in doubt resorted to kentucky windage on origin, dimensions, models, and calibers.  It's not pleasant but it's reality.  

 

 

 

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No apology necessary...you had nothing to do with me getting wound up. I was wound up after I received the letter, (3rd one) your post had nothing to do with that. I'm just over all the B.S. that we have to go through to get what should be a simple task done.

After 30+ years of putting up with this nonsense with form 4's I'm about worn out... old, and grumpy!

 

R.L.

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Posted (edited)

ah, my post was way TMI

 

Edited by johnsonlmg41

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I have to say that in this day in age the transfer time is ridiculous.  I when I sold my Vector Uzi several years ago, the F4 was bounced back as it "couldn't be registered in multiple calibers" even though that was how it was originally registered in 1986 AND how it had been transferred twice before, plus it was stamped on the receiver 9mm, 45acp, 22LR.  The whole system needs a rework and streamlined.

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Every single Form 4 transfer I've done over the last 2 years has been bounced back for one reason or another. None I might add was my mistake due to mistakes on the forms.I had the same caliber problem with 2 M-37's registered in 3 calibers. They ejected both .

I had a factory original AC556-F,(folder) with the original factory box marked F. They rejected that too. Every single from 4 rejection was with information that they approved in previous years form 4's.

I just had an MP5N rejected because of the 3 caliber registration.

Here is part of the problem. When ATF hires people to do do the paperwork for transfers they are hired for clerical positions, not technical positions.Most of the hired personnel have absolutely no working knowledge of C3. How can this be? If you want to work at DMV you must know the state vehicle laws and various vehicles types and categories to do your job accurately and efficiently..

If you ((ATF) are going to administer, record and adjudicate  a certain type of item, in this case the item  being machine guns and associated federally regulated gear, the personnel you employ should have some working knowledge of the very items they are tasked with administering. Giving clerical people the latitude to change or alter the identification of your class 3 item with no real knowledge of the nomenclature and items they want to re-identify, is absurd and only bound to continue the current defective condition of the registry rather than clearing it up. This is my opinion of course and your opinion and mileage may vary.

 

R.L.

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Posted (edited)

If Ruger did not mark "F" on the firearm, then AC556 is the model. If the firearm is marked AC556F then that is the correct model. The box is irrelevant for anything but a storage and shipping container.  ATF's failure was not pushing it back on the first modifier.  Any firearm with one barrel does not have three calibers - just accurately describe it at the time of application.  Firearms registered in 57 calibers never should not have been allowed to develop but it was and now applicants are confused about one barrel = one caliber; the simple has become complex through a team effort of public and government.  Another common scenario is "MP-5 ABCD5".  If the firearm is marked "MP-5" by the manufacturer, it's an MP-5 and that's it regardless of what trigger or stock is attached at any given moment.  If it's marked MP-5NA3 then that's what it is for its lifetime despite the S-E-F trigger and fixed stock attached afterward.  

I used to be a DMV employee; laws are something entirely different from lifetime history of the product.  I could tell you how much a <8,000 through 80,000 plate cost, how long you had to obtain title/registration/DL after moving in state, how to pay sales tax on a car purchased from a non-dealer, catch an ID thief, even one or two odometer cheats; that's what I needed to get through the day without giving taxpayers a runaround and catch the occasional crook but I couldn't tell you the manufacturing process of every car ever built or imported into the US - not even close and did not need to.  The laws applied to every car regardless of the year, engine size, or model.  

 

P.S. Good luck getting the human gun encyclopedias to apply for examiner jobs (or the internet cadre that claim they could process an application .3 seconds).  It's been tried - until impressment becomes legal, it probably won't happen.

Edited by The Lone Ranger
P.S.

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9 minutes ago, The Lone Ranger said:

If Ruger did not mark "F" on the firearm, then AC556 is the model. If the firearm is marked AC556F then that is the correct model. The box is irrelevant for anything but a storage and shipping container.  ATF's failure was not pushing it back on the first modifier.  Any firearm with one barrel does not have three calibers - just accurately describe it at the time of application.  Firearms registered in 57 calibers never should not have been allowed to develop but it was and now applicants are confused about one barrel = one caliber; the simple has become complex through a team effort of public and government.  Another common scenario is "MP-5 ABCD5".  If the firearm is marked "MP-5" by the manufacturer, it's an MP-5 and that's it regardless of what trigger or stock is attached at any given moment.  If it's marked MP-5NA3 then that's what it is for its lifetime despite the S-E-F trigger and fixed stock attached afterward.  

I used to be a DMV employee; laws are something entirely different from lifetime history of the product.  I could tell you how much a <8,000 through 80,000 plate cost, how long you had to obtain title/registration/DL after moving in state, how to pay sales tax on a car purchased from a non-dealer, catch an ID thief, even one or two odometer cheats; that's what I needed to get through the day without giving taxpayers a runaround and catch the occasional crook but I couldn't tell you the manufacturing process of every car ever built or imported into the US - not even close and did not need to.  The laws applied to every car regardless of the year, engine size, or model.  

 

P.S. Good luck getting the human gun encyclopedias to apply for examiner jobs (or the internet cadre that claim they could process an application .3 seconds).  It's been tried - until impressment becomes legal, it probably won't happen.

Well LR, some truth should be injected

BATF was doing fine processing transfers for many years.  The current mess is the result of multiple idiocy.  1st were SOTs doing unlawful and very dumb things like registering post 86' builds under MAC or STEN info.  That's why all the serious attention on registration info.  Nothing more or less to it.

2nd, under Clinton just a bunch of old school examiners were "retired" and replaced with urban Black females.  Just a mess of this occurred in the late 90s thus you ended up with absolutely unqualified inner city folks running the registry.

Then Booosh came into the WH...notice it became much worse rather than better.  Truth is that administration banned up way more things than Obama ever did, I can list off the kits they changed panties on, then there is the Booosh barrel ban

1st term was nutz:

Styer Mp69 kits, CZ kits, PPSh kits, Maxim kits, FAL kits, sheared M14 receivers, man I can go on and on and on.

What was one of the 1st things Baby Doc Boosh did post inaguration ?

Invites buddy McCainiac to the WH to discuss domestic policy then the next week anounces to the Nation he will be expanding BATF which he did by over 2000 well prior to 911.  Ya know, enforcing all those damn laws already on the books.  Well before a simple tax collection bureau of Treasury was unlawfully moved under DOJ via the so-called, ill named Patriot Act.  Another example of well you need to pass the bill before you get to read it like the later Obamacare

 

 

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okay, I cant resist, here is my 3 cents. trying to rebuild my collection back to what it was pre 1980, since 2012, I have bought 31 nfa weapons. that is about the time they hired all the new trainee's to "ease the work load" and streamline the entire system. almost half have required multiple applications OR pictures and other "clarification of status".  let me begin by stating, I'm totally supportive with what they are doing and why. you guys are forgetting, or don't know about the maxims with a piece of mac10 welded to the side with the serial # and MFGR. or the M60's with BM 59 stamped on the trunion etc. there were successful prosecutions and people are serving time as I type this. I don't know all the specifics but can relate positively what happened to me with the proposed changes. it was explained to me that it is now bureau policy when doing a transfer to roll all the way back to the ORIGINAL registration form and comparing it to the new application, changing what they feel is needed on the new application to clarify exactly what is being transferred. In 2013 I bought an original Belgium army Issue FALO made in 1961. it was originally amnesty registered as a "SHORT RIFLE" on a plain hand written form. obviously the registrant believed it to be other than a typical "heavy machine gun" but being capable of select fire needed to be registered. it had been transferred to the auction house before they went back to the original and was represented to be a lawful transferable machine gun at the sale. my original app was returned with "not approved " in large red ink across both pages and no explanation. when queried they explained it was not reg as a machine gun. I believe when the supervisor explained to me that it was an amnesty weapon , he made a mistake and should not have disclosed that because he worked VERY close with me for the next 3 yrs.  finally they agreed to accept it as a machine gun and disclosed that in 2016 all examples of a "factory" built FAL would be a C+R suggesting that I wait the couple months for that to occur, send the forms direct to the supervisor in martinsberg and he would hand carry it for approval. come 2016 I sent in new form 4 with a new check and lic. it was returned in 2 weeks untouched with a note that it was mailed to the wrong place. I emailed him, reminding him of our previous conversation and he claimed no knowledge of that. I then mailed hard printed copies of all the forms, all the emails which clearly showed the opposite. the approved forms were returned the following week.  REMEMBER this gun was on the original form as a "short rifle" and they fixed that.   now for the bad issue with them at the same time I bought a  Charlie erb built Vickers gun serial #623  they requested pictures of the gun showing marking , serial and a tape along side it. I complied, waited 6 months then called and they claimed all the forms were "lost" . then they demanded I send the gun to be examined and approved for "compliance".  I protested, claiming undue hardship and enclosed another set of pictures. they then explained that Charlie had another weapon in the registry #623 and it was in the hands of an individual. therefore my gun had to be renumbered with a 12 digit ATF # and new forms.  I asked them to confirm what model the "other" 623 was and they stated it did not matter, no MFGR could use the same NO twice. of course that's  absurd, many MFGR's use the same number for different models. they replied that was not correct, gave me 2 weeks to comply or have my dealer "destroy" the weapon. in order to keep my dealer clear, I agreed and stamped the 12 digits. maybe that was 5 cents worth?  mike


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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