R.L.

Well I guess that's the end of Subguns......

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18 posts in this topic

At least as we knew it. Frank, "I want all your machine guns" Goepfert bought all of the Subguns Boards. Yea remember him , the "broker" that posted here "constantly and obnoxiously", till he was asked to move on?

Yea that one. Yea well he now owns Subguns.com.

R.I.P. Subguns.

 

FWIW

R.L.

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I wonder how much Reuben is going to have to fork out for his ads there? 

Will Frank finally get added to the recommended dealers list?  And will Reuben be removed?   Oh.....the drama!

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Yea, bet it's gonna be drama central from now on at Subguns considering the previous bad blood. 

Too bad too cause I've known Tom for about 29 years and I like him...Frank on the other hand.. Uhhh, not so much.

I just clicked the new M.G. Central banner there, looks like you will now be required to keep a credit card # on file to post ads.

So tell me how it's supposed to work so well when you're posting NFA for sale and at the same time competing with the owner of the site for potential NFA  sales?

Yea sure I'll leave my Credit card # on file....what could possibly go wrong?

To be honest I've NEVER had one successful sale of an NFA item on Subguns.

In contrast I've sold my entire collection right here on Sturmgewehr.

Thanks for the best m.g.sales venue on the net!!

 

R.L.

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I have a wait & see attitude RL

Frank has posted that there will be no changes at the forum level however he has added his format in addition to Tom's sales board.  One can pay the seven bucks to advertise on the old boards or use his for FREE.

I guess I don't at all get where he is going with this but my inner cynic suspects he will be very slowly easing folks along into a completely new format rather then implode Subguns with immediate changes creating huge drama.  Registering with a credit card is no big thing really.  You just open a stand alone at another bank with a minimal deposit into a service fee free account then once registered block it from all electronic transfers.  Frank has stated there will be a one time penny transfer when you register that will be refunded so it's basically supposed to be all free afterwards.  Seems weird as I doubt Tom sold it cheaply and per Frank if you read between the lines this has been in the works for around a year between them.  That's how long he claims the "new" software development has been in the works.  I'm dubious but many were the same when Buddy handed over Strum as well.  We lost a number of great sellers here over registration.

Again, reading between the lines Frank has stated he is hoping to bring the sellers Subguns lost years ago when Tom was suckered into the pay per ad format around 2000.  Well registration with a CC won't bring those folks back.  When Tom changed formats there was a ton of outrage onsite  He was wise enough to incorporate my suggestion of a free under $500 ad board but most folks were already well put off and gravitated to Buddy.  You can look at the parts forum here and see how hit we have become.  Truth is there are a ton of paranoics who refuse to register and we are all lesser for that.  This is a great part of the reason we see the same handles advertising the same crap in parts and bits week after week since the changes here.

I'm not being at all critical of the new format here, pretty much had to be done to pare away the scumbag scammers.  I detest registration however I accept it as a necessary evil.  I'm sure Buddy was driven half crazy policing the old boards and while the Free Lunch program was a fine thing most vendors didn't bother contributing a thin dime to that Burger for Buddy.  That said watching the two boards Buddy was usually taking in more in voluntary donations then Bowers was with his pay as you go sex board silliness charging a lucky seven per listing.

Anyways once you require any form of registration you always end up losing a certain segment of sellers and most often it's those folks who offer the truly obscure bits.  Used to be you could regularly buy up somewhat grey market things both here and on Subguns like single saw cut parts sets.  It still crops up on Strum but not nearly as regularly as it did even a year or so ago. 

Add to that I do know a good number of NFA folks that pretty much tired of the juvenileness of Subguns' moderation and hero worship.  That started with the elimination of the old anything goes general discussion forum folding it into a softer format modded by a fool under Kate's old Sword Board.  Whole bunch of folks drifted away due to that.  Two top examples was the rabidity of attacks when Peter Kolaikas tried posting on the NFA board and the outright banning of Medal of Freedom winner, Doc Edmund Teller from the Sword Board because a mod got his panties in a bunch...yeah they actually had the inventor of the Hydrogen Bomb posting there, he made it less than a week before being banned.  I know as I was the Man who invited him over.  He just opposed wimmins thinking they were equal to Men, he was loud & proud about it too.

All this stated Subguns has quite a bit of status for whomever owns it.  It's possible Frank simply bought it as a vehicle to enhance his position in the marketplace which if he plays it properly it certainly should.  Many of the old "BCRs" are either passed on or beginning to liquidate items out of their collections and Frank so far has mostly been a broker.  Something to think on maybe huh...

 

 

 

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For me Sturm has always been the more serious firearms sales board of the 2 sites. Sturm has had  serious board discipline from day 1, thank you Buddy Hinton. Subguns used to be the fun place in the Wild West days, back when the GDB was pretty much open to anything you wanted to discuss or post, or just act like an ass in general on the net and get away with it!

Not as bad as Fubar's 2nd Amendment board though, fun.. but not really practical or manageable in the long run and a real PIA to police , I'm sure.

Unfortunately, the GDB board was over-corrected IMO and the place became pretty ghey after that , moderated and cloistered  to the point where, if you weren't a part of the hero worship, good buddy ( no pun Buddy!) gang, you were a pariah or not welcome there.

Kinda' funny and pathetic at the same time to watch some of the regulars posts, grovelling  around trying to establish themselves there now , kissing aXX with the new owner over the last couple days! So desperate to carve out a new place in the pecking order for themselves. 

The purchase of the current Subguns board IMO has nothing to do with the Subguns discussion boards, it's all about the sales boards.Messing up the discussion boards would precipitate an immediate decline in board traffic and sales because a lot of guys just go there just to yack.

Sturm has ALWAYS been the more serious sales site of the 2 boards. Looks like the new owner is trying to take that title now. Good luck with that.

Now I admit my opinion concerning the new owner at Subguns is slightly jaundiced, not being exactly a fan. I have good reasons and I won't go into them in a public forum, but I DO have legit reasons and there are a number of dealers with whom I'm friends, that know the reasons why and have similar opinions, for the same reasons.

It matters not to me what happens with the sales board over at Subguns, having sold all of my M.G's. However if I still had an FFL/SOT and was active in sales , I'd have some serious concerns about the transfer of ownership and more importantly the manner in which sales will be conducted in the future... especially advertising.

Methinks there is far more change in the winds than has been stated. Personally I find gun auction sites repugnant. Merging personal sales and auctions together on the same site seems like a conflict of interest to me, but what do I know.

I see the first shot across the bow was made today about how people price their C3 over there. I guess  the new owner thinks he now has the right to tell you how to price your stuff since the ads are free(on his format)...at least temporarily.

Yep, that's the hook.

Sorry, nobody tells me what my stuff is worth, and how to price it... If I'm paying for the ad or not! 

Again, I have met some of the nicest, most honest buyers right here, that's no exaggeration.

For that I'm eternally grateful to the Albert's.

Have a great holiday season.

R.L.

 

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On 11/23/2017 at 8:25 PM, R.L. said:

So tell me how it's supposed to work so well when you're posting NFA for sale and at the same time competing with the owner of the site for potential NFA  sales?

 

R.L.

 

I am sure that he will have first shot at the newly posted NFA items for sale. He might even configure the board so that he has to approve the post before it's posted.

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6 hours ago, mike in pa said:

 

I am sure that he will have first shot at the newly posted NFA items for sale. He might even configure the board so that he has to approve the post before it's posted.

That used to be rank common before the internet.

We used to pay big money for the FedEx overnight delivery option on the Gun List.  Noticed from the start quite a number of the deals and steals were already gone when I called.  Started asking sellers how long ago they had sold the item, always a few days before I called which was well, impossible.  Began asking what state if they knew was it shipping to ?

Hmmmm, always Wisconsin home of Krause Publications which put out the Gun List.

As it turned out a young guy was in the data entry office, making copies at work and Faxing the info to his father and uncle, they canned him immediately.

There had been similar scams going on at Hemmings Motor News in the 1980s I am aware of.  Same with some Newspapers.  Heard some complain about Walnecks years ago.  So yeah it's a hidden advantage unless a board is configured as a real time posting venue which most are.  Pretty certain his new format is real time.

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RL:  I remember the good old days clearly.  Part of what happened was a certain group of folks began imploring Tom to tighten up and highly moderate the GDB as they saw it as an embarrassment to the NFA community which in some ways it was.  Came to a head with the Troll Wars which resulted in rather negative media attention when Salon released an article regarding Subguns regulars mass attacking the VegSource website, even hacking their server.  It was one thing to troll Adolph Hitler.com but veggies and even a little girl's board devoted to her Pararie Dog pets was a bridge too far.

Fubar's board went up as a substitute venue for Subguns trolling.  That was it's only real reason for being.  It was a release valve.  Problem was a couple of regulars detested it's owner Steve who literally ended up having a breakdown over the constant attacks directed at his boys.  The worst of his detractors were some of Tom's own moderators.  That resulted in major bad blood between Bowers and his former friend Steve.  Too bad as the two were close buddies, Tom had even gifted Steve a M10 Smg prior to that falling out.

A whole bunch of the regulars detested Buddy for heavy handed moderation of Strum's sales forums.  Buddy had his rules you had to follow or your listing was nuked.  They were real basic, it was mostly about format but Man did they whine on Subguns about big bad Buddy.  It was pathetic.  There was as well an expectation that if Tommy's mods banned someone there Buddy was supposed to ban them on Strum.  Buddy didn't do that, more whining over that as well.

I agree, Buddy was totally professional, Strum was never much on discussion.  It was where you went to buy & sell.  There was no hero worship even though we all respected Buddy's serious efforts to keep the place clean.  

I don't know Frank from adam.  That said I generally detest "brokers".  I met the young guy who used to be the Firearms Expert on Pawnstars years ago.  Guy was dumb as a rock, his thing was skimming gun shows for suckers and brokering high end antique ams at a roughly 50% margin.  I laughed in his face at his offers several times.  His actual specialty was brokering Spanish Treasure ship recovered things then tried to break into the higher end Swords.  Most of us vendors wanted no part of his personal scam.  That clown expected actual possession of your brokered item, as I understand Frank doesn't do that but it does throw a wrench into his actual control over submission of paperwork & shipping at times as well as whether the item is as described by the brokeree.  Rubin doesn't play that way.  If something is wrong Rubin has a vaunted reputation for making it right on his dime.  You pay a bit more but you receive tremendous customer service and that's much of the tension between Frank & Rubin.

I like the format on Strum.  Even these new boards remain uncluttered

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I had listed on both Sturm and Subguns and I have to say that Subguns seemed to have worked faster for the sale of my Thompson this month.  I too am of the wait and see method.  I do have a feeling that the "steals" will dry up before the vast majority of us see them, but then again I don't see that many "steals" listed here on Sturm these days either.  Honestly it seems that the boards are 85% filled with ads from Ruben and other dealers, not so much regular guys selling off their items.

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5 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

I had listed on both Sturm and Subguns and I have to say that Subguns seemed to have worked faster for the sale of my Thompson this month.  I too am of the wait and see method.  I do have a feeling that the "steals" will dry up before the vast majority of us see them, but then again I don't see that many "steals" listed here on Sturm these days either.  Honestly it seems that the boards are 85% filled with ads from Ruben and other dealers, not so much regular guys selling off their items.

Depends Uzi

Not many folks advertising MGs online that are out of the valuation loop, the deals & steals there are about gone.  Only place they are found are among those whom are not part of the internet.

Something everyone should understand is the internet has created a strangely bipolar marketplace and that there continues to be a huge number of buyers/sellers that want no part of the Web.  Half the Men I run into at shows don't even have an email of their own, wife or kids maybe but they don't even use that infernal machine.  Trust me, their numbers remain legion out there.  Over the past 5 plus years I have had a few old buddies who were looking at selling NFA they have had for decades.  Couple years back I ran into one of them who had four DIAS he registered prior to 86', said he would be happy with a grand.  I was like EACH?

Nope for the lot of them.  I then had to explain current valuation, he about had a coronary on the spot.  Thought the wife unit was going to faint dead away on us.  He ended up selling most all of his MGs to folks I set him up with, I ended up with a decent wad of cash doing the right thing.  Point is these folks are out there.

Conversely you can pick certain antique arms up at online auctions and double investment at shows selling to other vendors...like I said, really bipolar

I'm a parts & accs guy.  Used to be there was a crap ton of deals on the boards.  That's damn rare now.

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Hello All, Frank here.

 

This thread was brought to my attention a few days ago, and I finally got time to contribute.  Due to the nature of the post I cleared this with Dave Albert who graciously welcomed my contribution.

 

We did recently purchase Subguns.com. I was excited about the opportunity which presented itself out of the blue. Both Subguns and Sturm were instrumental in our early success. Some of you guys may remember the Franks Gun integral Ruger’s we built and marketed on both web sites back in the good ole days. I think most of you can appreciate what both sites have contributed to our NFA community. I have had several long conversations with Tom Bowers regarding Subguns. Our vision for the future of the site is the same, which was a big factor in his decision to pass the torch. Personally I am very thankful for his trust.

 

Many of you bounce between both Sturm and Subguns so you may have interest in future plans which I will briefly outline. I would like to say I don’t consider Strum and Subguns.com to be competitors in the true sense of the word as many visit and enjoy both websites. The content and format are different and they are compliments to one another to the benefit of the NFA enthusiasts who enjoy them. Even their history is intertwined with the Alberts having some involvement in both during the early days.

 

Subguns has been the same for as long as I can remember. When it was launched there was no problem with scams like we have today. In addition when the code was written the technology and data transfer speeds were insufficient to display a large number of good quality photos.  In short the old technology needed to be updated in order to provide better security and better quality.  Though most of subguns users saw the need for better tech they were also very vocal about what they did NOT want to change. So this is what we are doing:

 

The Subguns.com forums, which so many of you love, will stay absolutely the same with exception of an additional Q and A forum which we hope to launch later today. No registration will be required and the moderators who have been so fair and performed such a vital task for the last 10 or more years will stay on. This has been widely applauded. All rules remain for the Forums just as they were before the transition.

 

The Subguns.com Classifieds will see a much needed change. The new version is currently active with NFA, Title One and Parts Accys sections. The old version is also available but will be phased out when we are certain the new version is widely accepted. I know change can be hard for some of you I get it.  

 

On the new version of Subguns classifieds, all listing go active in real time. There is no review of ads posted unless the content is flagged as being questionable by the automatic filter system. As you all know we love to buy machine guns and my hope is that our ownership of Subguns.com will indirectly benefit us due to general exposure and increased contact with the community. We don’t intend to compromise Subguns integrity by unnecessarily holding up listings for review.

 

Everyone will be welcome to list items at Subguns.com. Specifically I know Ruben has been a contributor for many years and I hope he will stay. We would like for this to be a place everyone can come to see a good representation of what’s available for sale. We would like for it to remain a place where you can learn from others and visit with friends.

 

Thanks guys. God willing we will keep Subguns going for many years to come.  If you have questions or comments please contact me directly, I am eager to hear from the community.

 

Albert’s – Thanks for Sturm I appreciate the complement our two NFA sites are to each other.

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United We Stand...

Frank ,

I'm a oldtime customer from the shotgun news days, bought a  beautiful  Hk from you back then , on just your word,  no pictures,  just your description ... it was high priced  at the time , but years later , I sold it for double what I paid. 

In these times of change , we all should be thankful for  all gun owners, no matter  what gun they have in their  holster. 

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im a Sturm guy. im not getting involved in the Subgun, credit card drama, next it will be checking account routing number.

 

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Well to list things for sale on here (Sturm) you have to pay with a credit card so what is the difference?

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I noticed the last two comments and I think Dave will agree wholeheartedly with what I am about to say. 

 

The credit card registration is primarily for security. We are not currently charging for listings but the credit card must be entered anyway. I am sure Dave can tell you this goes a long ways towards preventing Scamming. 

 

I for one, don't want our clientele to get ripped off because of lax security measures. One can say buyer be ware, but the truth is the scams are getting more elaborate and more convincing. It is extremely bad for our industry when it is riddled with scams and even worse when there are people actually getting taken for thousands. We should all do what we can to prevent this from happening. Sorry its the world we live in folks.

 

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There's A HUGE difference in paying for a product with a credit card at the point of purchase, versus storing your personal info on a 3rd party cloud. If you have your CC # in your pocket or at home or where ever you keep it...safe and secure, YOU have control over it's use.

Yep this IS the world we live in, so after stating this risk, now tell me again why anyone should take such a HUGE risk, to secure a vendor's profits .. when the risk to the buyer could be averted all together by discontinuing this high risk policy ?

Storing your credit card number with a 3rd party exposes you to fraud on an exponential level. If Equifax...one of the largest credit reporting agencies  in the world, DOD and many other high security government agencies (CIA for example) can't keep their accounts 100% secure, just exactly how do you think you credit card info will be secure on a server, probably not 1/2 as secure as the DOD servers?

Feel free to experiment with your credit info. I've already experienced stolen credit card info..on an alleged SECURE server!

Once was enough , thank you.

 

R.L.

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RL, thanks for the commentary.

No processor will allow credit card info storage. It simply does not happen, if it did the business storing the credit card info would lose their processor. Its a little known fact unless you are in the business, so I understand your concern. 

I will be happy to explain the process in more detail but I dont want to trash up the Sturm forum. This would be a more appropriate discussion for the Subguns forum or you can always contact me directly. 

Thanks again my friend. 

 

 

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