mike todd

ATF ruling 94-1 and SAS 12 help needed

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I was recently advised by a friend in Connecticut that drives a restored WWII jeep as his Daily Driver,   a widow who needs to dispose of several NFA items approached him during a grocery run. Husband (not a dealer or sot) passed away in 2013 and everything placed in safe storage. "she know's nor cares to know anything about them, just wants them gone". "needs help finding paperwork" both fed and state".  in the lot is a trans SAS-12 DD, and an example of most other shotguns mentioned in ruling 94-1. I need to know what Federal form was used to register a "non NFA shotgun as a DD"  back then. did form require fee and stamp,  pic ? In the flurry I bought the transferable full auto SAS-12 with 1 drum mag only. to be right, I have no idea of FAIR MARKET VALUE so I can pay her.  CONN state law requires all "machine guns" to be " FULL AUTO ONLY" and it is. the selector has been altered. anyone have a replacement selector ?  cost ?.      as legal and "sole heir" she stated ATF transferred all NFA  to her in 2013 and "has no idea" what forms were used. jeep driver is searching, but needs to know what to look for. IDEA'S or THOUGHTS?    CHEERS ! MIKE


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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Are you referring to the USAS 12--- there are no "transferable" ones?

If so, and if I recall correctly, the USAS-12 was declared a DD on 02-28-94, and amnesty registration was by 05-01-01 (Form 4, and no transfer tax).

 

Tony

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You might need to go there.  If she had everything transferred to her it would all be on form 5's, however if the USAS-12 is indeed full auto, it should not have transferred to her on a form 5 as a post sample? Nor would her husband ever had it without an SOT of some type. It's likely a semi.....but looks "threatening".    Markets for semi's seem to be over 4K now and drums (which are fragile)  $800+

HTH

 

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I don't have any knowledge you add but would ask that you keep this story going! I like hearing about deals like this because it gives me hope some day I'll stumble onto one and be able to afford it! 

 

Thanks 

Pete

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TONY,  no transferables????  well all I know is she has a full auto USAS 12 brand new with one drum and a Connecticut state registration as such, it is full only because of conn law, "no select fire" the federal forms are copies and the ends are not readable due to fax / copy/ who knows.  he had one of EVERY shotgun declared a DD by atf when he passed on in his collection along with a few other normal nfa weapons. when he passed, she had local law enforcement remove EVERY firearm from the home, because she was scared to death of a break in . the whole town knew he was a "gun nut" and knew he died.  my contact (trusty of my estate) went to the agency to be sure they were protected and not destroyed, notified me and I assisted the sale of the other shotguns. my contact is certainly no expert and we agreed it could have been just a semi auto DD registered in conn. but it is registered as a MACHINE GUN in CONN and  DD  federally ?? he then double checked and the bolt cycles as a MACHINE GUN WOULD. I have NEVER laid eyes on it and cant say either way at this point , but its mine and I will figure it out. I just need to pay her the fair value which was the entire purpose of this post. ATF held up the transfer on the USAS to the widow for unknown reasons. my contact went to the pd and removed all he could from the receiver planning to ship them to me to sell. when the form arrived stating it was her's he took her to the PD and PICKED IT UP.  it is locked in a safe and he requested I fill out the proper transfer papers/ forward them to her to sign et all and so forth.  SOOOO? if there are none, is it priceless??? at this stage, I'm willing gamble and send in the request and still need to know what to pay her.  thanx , lets hear more  mike


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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OTHER THOUGHTS. MY contact states receiver is marked, FULL / SEMI /SAFE. bolt cycles full in both positions. her husband was not a ffl holder of ANY kind. registration to him was tax free except for the USAS a $200 tax was paid. I faxed a form 5 to my contact and her forms are nothing close. he is currently trying to meet with the agent that was present when the PD picked up ALL the guns. that's it for now, will try to keep up, VERY ill at this time    MIKE          9/30   THIS KEEPS BOTHERING ME and will until I have it in hand and closed I guess. If I had a copy of the forms and had observed the pieces personally things would be more certain to say the least. my experience helping in a few past estates has shown some of the collectors had a different attitude late in life and no concern about the law close to the end with altered weapons etc. because the unit in question cycles its possible he altered it . the conn state paper states its a MG  and I'm not aware how they separate the class's of NFA at the state level.  TONY and LMG41 are ALLWAYS SPOT  ON and NO argument here to their posts. I will keep this current as it develops !  just in case, what are the best sources for parts would be of help.

Edited by mike todd
MORE INFO

I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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Mike,

Gilbert Equipment Company (Chicksaw, Alabama/Nashville, Tennessee) did not import the USAS-12 until 1989--- so there can be no "transferables" to individuals.

If the owner registered it during the amnesty, there would have been no tax to pay--- if one possessed a USAS-12 after the amnesty period and did not register it, the receiver would be contraband and would have to be cut up, while the remainder of the parts could be retained.

Parts can be found for sale on Gunbroker.

Please update us on the status of the USAS-12.

Tony

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TONY, thanx for the solid info about gilbert equipment. my trusty is coming to texas in nov/dec and bringing a load of things from the estate including all the parts to the USAS, and ALL the paperwork. no federal papers have been found as of 10/2 but he insists the conn state registration states " MACHINEGUN"  and he certainly was not any kind of dealer.  CONN has allowed NFA for many years but restricted them to non selectfire.  another thought,  even though machine guns are banned since 86, Destructive Devices are still legal to form 1 by individuals and of course  LIC manufacturer's.  I know of some OLERKONS built recently that fire full auto and are papered DD's. my trusty assembled the USAS and claims the bolt cycles as a MG  with no disconnect. when it was papered as a DD its possible he went all the way . at least the state believes it to be a MG. what would that mean federally?


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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Mike,

Not familiar with Connecticut state laws on how they classify a DD (i.e., as a MG?)!!!

Regardless, if it was not registered as a DD by 05-01-01, then it is contraband, and the receiver has to be cut (unless transferred to an SOT).

Can you PM me the importer and the full serial number, and let me check it with my data?

Tony

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Not necessarily contraband.  The receivers were fine to posses at any time and the guns could be assembled and registered even today so that may not be true.    Mine was assembled and registered post 5/1/01 since it had not been assembled prior to that.  Many of them were, and it is a gilbert equipment gun. 

Mike, whomever registered an Oerlikon as a DD did so incorrectly.  It is both a DD and a MG, but MG status trumps DD, so they are registered as machine guns, not DD's

Whatever CT state law says is mostly irrelevant, since again federal law is what you are dealing with and as mentioned there are no transferable USAS-12's.  If the gun indeed fires full auto, it's either broken or an illegally modified semi.  There are no other options.

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THANX FOR ALL THE INPUT GUY'S !  I have been at it long enough to know  better than try to trump the feds. (no pun intended)  I have also handled enough NFA in CONN to know they are completely lost and liable to do anything. I found out the OLERKON I mentioned was a registered DEWATT when I asked for more details on its registration.    I tried one more time to clarify the USAS operation and by hand there is NO  disconnect , the hammer falls as the bolt closes every time.  It appears to be federally registered because local ATF was involved with the PD release to the widows rep.  but no fed forms have surfaced. conn forms state machine gun as type?  because there is no magic wand to fix this the way all of us would like, it will need to have all the internals removed and then I can complete a form 4 for the transfer as a DD. it has no evidence of being fired  and only one drum. could you advise me about a fair figure to pay the widow?  considering I will have to by parts to get it running. I don't want to steal it, not even sure I want it at this stage, but  I have gone too far and don't want to disappoint her.  a bench rest 30lb flintlock would be more fun at this stage.  thanx again for all the help  mike


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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LATEST news flash on this fiasco.  Normally when I'm asked about NFA weapons, my first request would be for a copy of or at least info from the existing forms to learn what is actually being presented  My contact while trying to do his best , had no paperwork other than the STATE forms and I know nothing about them or the format. when asked questions about a specific weapon he was relying on memory and put the wrong things together. it looks like some M-16 info got applied to the USAS. ALL the GREAT INFO YOU GUYS gave me, made me push on and get it right.  with the USAS IN HIS HAND, I now know ALL the physical facts about it.  it is indeed a SEMI ONLY and has NOT been altered or messed with, but may not be correctly assembled. it is registered federally as a DD.  My only interest was the full auto aspect so as soon as a price can be figured out I will post it on the board.   AGAIN YOU GUY'S SAVED ME A BUNCH OF DISAPPOINTMENT WITH THE CORRECT INFO THANX! MIKE


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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$1500-2200 for a complete, excellent condition USAS-12 semi-auto DD depending on the day of the week. $200-300 for an excellent drum, $50 for a stick. I get offered these guns, parts, accessories on a regular basis as I have been running WTB ads for the stuff for years. Check past GB auctions and these prices will be confirmed. Granted, sometimes a person that doesn't know the market will overpay. Or, there is something particularly interesting about one, like the last one sold on GB with some unique story/features that went $3700. But prior to that one a guy had difficulties for the better part of a year selling one at $2000 with drum, mags, etc.  so with the accessories that puts the gun below $2000, and it was in beautiful condition. 

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