mstrmstr

WTB Chauchat Registered dewats buggered guns etc

Location: Northern Indiana

22 posts in this topic

I am on the hunt for reasonable transferable registered dewats or buggered guns and parts for the Chauchat
(Fusil Mitrailleur Modele 1915 CSRG)
I have a Mfg. who is making and fitting new barrels and blueprinting them to function as originally designed. Also NEW made mags are on the drawings board. As you may know it is next to impossible to re-barrel one but we now have the machining fixtures that work..and have solved the ammunition problems.

 

I need to gather a few to make a run of barrels at a reasonable cost. MAY be re-barreling your Sho-Sho on request depending on response. 

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What caliber are you going to convert to?

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8x50R French  using current 8mm Lebel rifle PRVI brass and .323 projectiles and the barrel will special chambered to take them well.

The key is do we adapt another type of magazine for the shooters or just clamshell some stamped mags for just for Lebel purists? probably the later.

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I've looked into making Chauchat magazines.  Pretty simple construction that might actually lend itself to polymer molding with metal feed lips.  The two clamshell parts are pretty crude, in fact.

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3 hours ago, 1gewehr said:

I've looked into making Chauchat magazines.  Pretty simple construction that might actually lend itself to polymer molding with metal feed lips.  The two clamshell parts are pretty crude, in fact.

Question is would anyone run a small lot of 500 to 1000 to start?

Todays IM products would stand up well even with polymer reinforced lips.

 

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I thought you meant you where going to convert to a different caliber. Something easier to find or cheaper to get the 8mm lebel. You are just wanting to replace the barrel and mag but stay original. I've looked at getting one of these guns but the ammo does not seem easy to get unless you reload

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PRVI new correct brass is available and .323 projectiles from Grafs. Reloading with new component until PRVI(PPU) ammo reappears.

When it shows be quick- the French rifle shooters snap it up by the case like it was fine chocolate.

Foolin' with the bolt for a non rimmed cartridge can be done but as we all know more changes cost more money.

As long as brass,powder, projectiles and primers are available 8x50R Lebel shooters are happy.

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would a 7.62x54R conversion work as an easier to find caliber ?


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11 minutes ago, Buddy H said:

would a 7.62x54R conversion work as an easier to find caliber ?

Only with modifications to the recoiling mass and definitely a new barrel to take the pressure. The russian ammo puts out 10,000 psi greater than the Lebel ammo. 

The OAL is good within 2 mm and fitting could be done. I have not researched in increased recoil effects on ancient gun parts. 

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Mstrmstr, I am very interested to hear how your research and trials progress. Would love to find a working system for my Chauchat.

 

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Is your a registered DeWat/Form 1 Rewat but not done/Transferable but doesn't run, Etc.

We find most that have contacted have just guns that need ReWat from their DeWat.

The process has been perfected. All guns so far have run just like new and better. .The service is available. There is a wait list. Proprietary methods.  

The welded guns are a nightmare because the bolt has FP hole and other near parts heat damaged. The barrels are so weld damaged a specialized set of tool had to be designed and fabricated to remove both the barrel and correct weld damage from the inside of the receiver. Depending on the damage most can be expensive to fix. That is why we are looking for 1. Barrel sales only. 2. Purchase buggered and registered C&R or transferable 3. Outright "fix your gun".

We have priced our ready to install barrels. The price is about the same as any other custom barrel at $1100.00. May seem high to you but as any custom barrel make how much a "one of" cost using your dimensions!

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So are the new barrels indexed to drop in, or do you need the whole assembly to fit each one?  In other words if I buy one can I install it myself or will I need to send out the whole sleeve/ receiver section for fitting? And is that included in the 1100?

Thanks.

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It is the barrel only and would need fitting- The crux is the barrels although threaded do not just unscrew- they need to be cut, carefully bored and the receiver carefully rethreaded as many were also welded to the tube and wartime production caused them to overtorque the barrels to the point of twisting the receiver and sleeve.  Depending on the work the whole project would be 2300 to 3500 due to the massive amount of machinist time. 

If there is no welding and it's a barrel replacement with no missing, mismatched or damaged parts the job is substantially less.

CRSG's have rarely cost big money. They just never got that popular. Even now a complete functioning CRSG as a transferable  just cost me $4200.00 

 and parts guns are indeed near worthless as the parts mostly just don't interchange, Maybe 500 w/o magazine

 

Quotes are per job

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I'm definitely interested, currently have a dewat on a F3.
My intentions are to convert it to 54R as the Finns did back in the day...since these will be totally custom barrels, is it possible to have it rebarreled in 54R?
The issue of recoil mass/bolt/magazine is something I can take care of myself, but the rebarrel process is not something I have the ability to do.

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Seems historical reports are not good for the higher pressure guns ( '06, 54R,etc.).

Parts breakage and receiver stretch and stress cracks on the 100 year old guns is very common. Age embrittlement has occurred. The original steel quality used was whatever was available and at that time no one bothered- production ruled. Retempering is tricky and can destroy a receiver if not done properly.

Since individual parts are uncommon, most have to be hand made and are expensive. Common for extractors to show up chipped,missing, bent or broken on dewats from actuating the bolt with a welded barrel.

We have so far decided to stay with the original Lebel caliber with new brass and projectile readily available. The 54R surplus is just that, when gone its gone.

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What are dewat chauchats going for these days?  If I can't find someone able to install a 54R barrel I'll just sell it.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, westtexasking said:

What are dewat chauchats going for these days?  If I can't find someone able to install a 54R barrel I'll just sell it.

The problem with the CRSG's now is the basic Dewat is not worth as much as the parts that come with it!  People pay more for the one part they need. In fact MUCH more since the wait for someone to have the part may take years to find.!!!!  A parts missing gun can go as low as a couple hundred when it has been poorly cared for if cared for at all over the decades.

A 70% finish or better original working weapon can fetch $5,000. I bought a 90% gun with accessories for $4600.00 from a big auction last year.

 The restoration and rebarreling running from $2,500.00 to $3,500.00 just for the machinist. (They run right when done).  The dewats run 1500 to 2000 depending on damage. Some dewats are so buggered they remain wall hangers. A dewat sold at the Knob before I got there for $1800.00 and it was nice. It is possible that cost wise a 1800 dewat plus the worst 3500 rebuild plus the $200.00 rewat NFA costs are greater than finding a untouched original. These CRSG's are guns of history and not buy/sell profit makers.

History lesson.. Many moons ago the complete CRSG's sold  when first imported as dewats for $35.00 plus $15.00 shipping  a decade later they sold in a SGN adv for $100.00 shipped.  The guns don't even rate a spot on most price guides, just a writer's opinion.. They are, of course, historically significant and unique. Collectible in their own right.

I buy Papered C&R Dewats for 15 to 18. I refuse guns played with by kids over the last 60 years. If anyone says the machinist charges to much I just ask what they do for a living?

A good machinist only charges about the same as a auto mechanic.  A hack with destroy your baby. I ramble a lot, 

Edited by mstrmstr

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Chauchat prices are starting to go up significantly.  With the Prvi 8mm Lebel ammo, folks are finding that the guns actually run pretty well.  Also, it's the least expensive rifle-caliber full-auto around.  Finally, there has been some renewed interest due to the 100th anniversary of the US getting into WWI.  The availability of new barrels will help the prices of dewats go up.

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44 minutes ago, 1gewehr said:

Chauchat prices are starting to go up significantly.  With the Prvi 8mm Lebel ammo, folks are finding that the guns actually run pretty well.  Also, it's the least expensive rifle-caliber full-auto around.  Finally, there has been some renewed interest due to the 100th anniversary of the US getting into WWI.  The availability of new barrels will help the prices of dewats go up.

That is an affirmative on pricing but it is not only due to available ammunition but the cost of rebarreling is not cheap. The owners want to get their money back and then some when selling. Rewats and C&R's that are as issued hold the premium. Rebarreling was half the cost of today but so were the guns.  To figure the fair cost of good C&R papered dewats just figure $4500 minus cost of recovery (up to 3500 but average 2500). That leaves just 1500 for the dewat owner value.  There a LOT of costs involved and the biggest is NFA taxing. Form 1 for rewat PERMISSION, then when sold it can incur dual NFA from an individual in one state to an individual in another.  By the time just one rewat is done and sold by the owner there could be as much as $600.00 in NFA taxes.. and 18 months of waiting. OUCH.  It gets worse too! some owners who believe they have a dewat don't really without NFA pre 86 C&R transfer at a minimum.

Granted though the price will continue to rise for that mere fact of tax recovery just to break even.

I have one MP5 that started on one tax and as of now has had 14 owners and accrued total tax expenditures by those folks totaling $5800.00 not including the gun.. 

I still get get people who don't get the basics of post "86 NFA economics.  I could go on forever but the same "wish-I-woulda" people come by not realising they SHOULD  and look to the future and not the past.

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Not to get off topic but on the subject of DEWAT's you are correct.  I rather enjoy redoing them, as it gives a great sense of accomplishment once they are operational.  Had I been paying someone else to do the work it would have been insane and not worth it.  I'm always looking for DEWAT guns to buy and breath new life into them. 

This makes me want to get a Chauchat since the ammunition is coming back around plus the interest in parts and such.

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Of course, a DEWAT transfer is tax-free on a Form5.  You still have the wait, but the cost of the transfer is reasonable ;-) .

Another aspect is that almost all registered DEWATs are C&Rs.  They retain their C&R status when reactivated, too.  That alone saves a future purchaser $200 for an out-of-state transfer tax if they spring for a $30 C&R license.

One of the surest indicators of peaking interest in a C&R firearm is when magazine and accessory prices start to skyrocket.  Another indicator is when someone thinks that it's worthwhile making replacement parts (and barrels) for 100 year-old guns!

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11 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

Not to get off topic but on the subject of DEWAT's you are correct.  I rather enjoy redoing them, as it gives a great sense of accomplishment once they are operational.  Had I been paying someone else to do the work it would have been insane and not worth it.  I'm always looking for DEWAT guns to buy and breath new life into them. 

This makes me want to get a Chauchat since the ammunition is coming back around plus the interest in parts and such.

I am also eager to learn from past experiences. Most folk don't have the time, machine tools and expertise let alone the knowledge to accomplish rewats correctly.

 The BATFE has regulation against "renting" someone else's machine time to rewat or legally activate /modify a firearm on their premises. Kinda forcing all to own your own machines or go to a NFA Mfg. The now available GHOST GUN  tabletop mill with programing that automates and finishes those 80% AR lowers is a excellent example of following that law.

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