mike todd

HELP clear up confusion with NFA C+R'S

Location: BOERNE,TEXAS

8 posts in this topic

I have owned nfa weapons since1961 . I worked for sam @interarms  and got everything at cost so they piled up REAL quick.  I have been active in the field continuously using form 4's as I had no interest in the dealer end of things. the only "NON ORIGINAL GUNS" I bought were models that were not typically available because of trade restrictions, or only dealer samples.

over the years I have contacted atf concerning several different weapons and the C+R status. word was," all unaltered original , AS MANUFACTURED firearms 50 yrs of age were so classified and no further action was required. in that example I had requested 2specific weapons be placed on the list so they could go to a C+R only state in a trade this was in1998. recently I purchased several examples from the evergreen collection and some were duplicates   4 weapons were represented as C+R'S and had been marked by pat tomleson in Tucson Arizona. for some reason he marked EVERY UNIT in his collection. as it turned out 2 of the 4 were "REWATS" and the transfer stalled  after they traced the original "dewatt" registration, they  requested pictures to confirm ALL THE ORIGINAL MFGR MARKINGS are present and the weapons are in the original configuration as manufactured. In one respect I was lucky, one of the units in question was a 2 digit gun from a 1937 contract and I own an exact duplicate 5 numbers higher that transferred as a c+r.        last week i called to check on status of the transfer and was told it had cleared the historical examination and just needed to "go through the departments" for final approval.

after following the recent hoorah about a MG-42 and its C+R status,  I became confused as many VERY conflicting statements were presented that do not agree with my experience.

ONE THING I know for sure, last year I purchased a "dewatt" Russian  PPS-43 and it transferred to me with the C+R. as soon as I received it I sent in a form one to activate it. It now resides in the vault and is live.  during ALL the above I asked several times the status of the pps-43 and was assured it would transfer to my heir in a C+R only state.

of course any weapon manufactured by a U.S. manufacturer and so stated on the paperwork would NOT qualify .  however a MG-34, MG-42  showing Germany or a zb37 showing Czech as the manufacturer on the paperwork should indeed ship as a C+R  as the origin is clearly documented. a rewelded  cut gun would have to show the manufacturer's name and state on the paperwork to be registered between 1970 and 1986 and that should speak for itself as to status.

I posted this in an attempt to get any FACTUAL information to support OR boot my opinion and needed to share the examples that led me to get that opinion  I would appreciate response that is formed by an experience or ruling  not just an individual interpretation or guess..      CHEERS MIKE

2 people like this

I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good post!  Thanks for the C&R info.  Unfortunately, nothing in my NFA collection qualifies for C&R....yet.

I did make a few purchases from Interarms in Alexandria back in '86-87.  Unfortunately, they were all Title 1 firearms.  How I wish I knew then what I know now!   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mike todd said:

of course any weapon manufactured by a U.S. manufacturer and so stated on the paperwork would NOT qualify . 

This is the only part that's off.  The definition in 478.11 gives one avenue as being manufactured at 50 years prior to the current date.  No requirement to be built outside the US.

If you are looking for some reading on original configuration, there is some writing in the brown C&R book as I recall but too lazy to verify.  Also there was a ruling in 1985 (85-10) concerning receivers not being C&R and a passage in the NFA Handbook on rewats retaining C&R status.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A question I had after reading this is whether there is any issue with a rewat that was registered 50 years or more ago being C&R.  I assume it is, based on age, and regardless of being unaltered, and as manufactured.  Am I correct, or is there another potential wrinkle of which I am not aware?

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com


National Rifle Association
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
Ohio Gun Collectors Association
Thompson Collectors Association
Carbine Club
Garand Collectors Association
International Ammunition Association
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
Eagle Scout, and Member of NESA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

with my PPS-43 there was no question , pics req. nothing they just processed the forms. where it got touchy and made me wonder. I have a costa rica 7mm breda 30  2 digit. I bought it from the evergreen collection via auction and trans it with a C+R no problem.     at the same auction, I bought another example 5 digits earlier  the paper work was identical to the paper work for the first example EXCEPT a notation of additional markings IE; JPT- Tucson,az. manufacturer on BOTH GUNS listed as " ITALIAN GOVERNMENT BRESCIA" both were submitted at the same time in the same envelope, but the second one was denied

I knew the history of the second example. it came from DOLF GOLDSMITH as a dewatt to pat tomleson. I used to shoot with both and pat built all my water cooled stuff. for some reason he would NEVER explain, pat marked everygun in his collection the same way.  he did in fact make the gun live. long b-4 it was sold to mike at evergreen.

OFFICIALLY ATF HAS A VERY FIRM POLICY concerning all venues of C+R's  if it is not as " ORIGINALLY MANUFACTURED ", it will NOT qualify ! of course final judgement of originality is an opinion , but they are in charge. I have made several requests for a specific serial # to be put on the list.  prior to apprx 2000, all requests had to include detailed pics of the entire  piece and all the back up evidence you could muster to support its current condition.. after 2000 when I made the request and sent in prelim paper, I would get either a letter or call stating the 50 yrs age AND ORIGINALLITY CLAUSE was automatic. right after the 86 law , which allowed C+R imports again. a west virgina dealer flooded the market with cheap "sporters" and made a big deal about them being C+R eligible . the adds were posted forever and they even offered to do custom requests with other models. must have been a tremendous quantity because after a compliance check, they were shut completely down and everything was seized  govt position was, altered firearms do not qualify

to help with your question DAVID I was told ALL registered dewatts once 50 yrs old are and remain C+R'S even if made live. but I have never received a letter stating such.  I have been walking on eggs with them lately as I have 17 transfers pending, some have major issue's , like duplicate serial no's  no record etc. thank god all are from dolphs collection or evergreen. as it is I'm going to be forced to apply a an ATF # to one maybe two of those.   in addition to the 2 examples above there are 3 more to be documented. I had to provide them with manufacturer date codes, proof marks etc. I will make a formal request for such a letter once the smoke clears

MY statement concerning U.S. manufacturers was indeed out of place. my intent was to focus on "pre 1970 "registrations and its hard to do in a small space. of course ALL wjll be C+R come 2036 but  for now just the thompsons and FALS made the grade without a one on one individual request.  not mahy are aware but as of 1/01/16   all selectfire FAL rifles are officially C+R no matter who built it.     keep it coming, thanx mike


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

with my PPS-43 there was no question , pics req. nothing they just processed the forms. where it got touchy and made me wonder. I have a costa rica 7mm breda 30  2 digit. I bought it from the evergreen collection via auction and trans it with a C+R no problem.     at the same auction, I bought another example 5 digits earlier  the paper work was identical to the paper work for the first example EXCEPT a notation of additional markings IE; JPT- Tucson,az. manufacturer on BOTH GUNS listed as " ITALIAN GOVERNMENT BRESCIA" both were submitted at the same time in the same envelope, but the second one was denied

I knew the history of the second example. it came from DOLF GOLDSMITH as a dewatt to pat tomleson. I used to shoot with both and pat built all my water cooled stuff. for some reason he would NEVER explain, pat marked everygun in his collection the same way.  he did in fact make the gun live. long b-4 it was sold to mike at evergreen.

OFFICIALLY ATF HAS A VERY FIRM POLICY concerning all venues of C+R's  if it is not as " ORIGINALLY MANUFACTURED ", it will NOT qualify ! of course final judgement of originality is an opinion , but they are in charge. I have made several requests for a specific serial # to be put on the list.  prior to apprx 2000, all requests had to include detailed pics of the entire  piece and all the back up evidence you could muster to support its current condition.. after 2000 when I made the request and sent in prelim paper, I would get either a letter or call stating the 50 yrs age AND ORIGINALLITY CLAUSE was automatic. right after the 86 law , which allowed C+R imports again. a west virgina dealer flooded the market with cheap "sporters" and made a big deal about them being C+R eligible . the adds were posted forever and they even offered to do custom requests with other models. must have been a tremendous quantity because after a compliance check, they were shut completely down and everything was seized  govt position was, altered firearms do not qualify

to help with your question DAVID I was told ALL registered dewatts once 50 yrs old are and remain C+R'S even if made live. but I have never received a letter stating such.  I have been walking on eggs with them lately as I have 17 transfers pending, some have major issue's , like duplicate serial no's  no record etc. thank god all are from dolphs collection or evergreen. as it is I'm going to be forced to apply a an ATF # to one maybe two of those.   in addition to the 2 examples above there are 3 more to be documented. I had to provide them with manufacturer date codes, proof marks etc. I will make a formal request for such a letter once the smoke clears

MY statement concerning U.S. manufacturers was indeed out of place. my intent was to focus on "pre 1970 "registrations and its hard to do in a small space. of course ALL wjll be C+R come 2036 but  for now just the thompsons and FALS made the grade without a one on one individual request.  not mahy are aware but as of 1/01/16   all selectfire FAL rifles are officially C+R no matter who built it.     keep it coming, thanx mike


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr. Albert:  Date of manufacture is the turning point - so you could have a C&R that was registered in the amnesty.... not 50 years old by paper, but well beyond that in actual age.  A couple of guys on the Thompson board got in the circle of death with that during transfers but it was eventually rectified.

 

Mr. Todd:  I personally use "original configuration" as it's less confusing for a simpleton like me.  You can have a WWII Garand with a Boyd's stock made last week and it is a C&R because while the stock is new it is consistent with the original design.  If someone puts a plastic ninja stock with tactical TP dispenser and butt wiping attachment, it ceases to be a C&R.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OH ME ! you are absolutely CORRECT! original configuration is the deciding factor. I believe the note I have from NFA historical division even uses that.  to QUOTE GRUNDEL,

"OH ME HEAD IS A ACHING in a two fold"  ranger thanx for clearing that up , as its a VERY IMPORTANT TERM . some one actually lost their license over a garand with a plastic stock. even though the stock was part of a military contract and part of a lot that sold at naval surplus in san diego in the early 1960's."CONFIGURATION" was used in the indictment.  the individual got into the fight, and a back and forth exchange of receipts , sworn statements were filed with the court. after the smoke cleared and it was determined the stocks had never been used by the govt, he accepted a "plea" and charges were dropped with an agreement to surrender the license and cease the trade. their were multiple units involved that he had assembled using parts and were offered in the shotgun new's. we became aware of this after a request was filed for financial assistance with the defense. one still finds these plastic stocks and hand gaurds along with 03 springfield examples offered on G-BRKR from time to time.


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now