motorcycling951 Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 I read this on another site awhile ago and forgot all about it until tonight. Supposedly, the BATF has changed its mind yet again ( big surprise there huh) regarding the older types of tear gas pens, as well as tear gas billies, and a few similar items whitch were and have always been considered NON-FIREARMS and has now placed them into the catagory of NFA AOW items. Is there any truth to this? If so, when did that happen? And furthermore what are the owners supposed to do with any of the old ones that they have in possession? Anyone around here know what in the hell is going on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OA/DAW Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 Your easiest solution would be to register the possible offending weapon as an AOW, pay your $5.00 and sleep well at night. Ozark Armory C2 since 1983 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lone Ranger Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) Well.... $200 and it would be a fraudulent application unless he actually built it after approval. If ATF announces a "registration period" it will be free if consistent with 1994. Rule of thumb on ATF related "intel": unsourced usually = untrue. Edited June 30, 2016 by The Lone Ranger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorcycling951 Posted June 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 Loner anger I was referring to pre-existing tear gas dispenser items. Like most of the tear gas pens that come up for sale on gb or other similar sites. Most were made back in the 60-s sometime. And most aren't even marked in any way. So if you have some of the old ones what are you supposed to do with them of anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lone Ranger Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Do you know what you have is a AOW or just the rumor mill? If it really is and it's from the 60s last time to register would have been the amnesty - destroy or abandon. If it is not an AOW, no need or method to register. I don't know the first thing about them other than seeing ads in comic books when I was a kid and those probably weren't real anyway.... like those "exploding bridges" in the army sets. The only comment I can make with any competence is very general - that if it is designed or modified to fire fixed ammunition, it's an AOW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorcycling951 Posted July 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Lone Ranger the ones I've got were never designed to fire a standard bullet and I don't think one would even fit inside. Either way I've got some old tear gas loads to go with them, that could help me prove no intention of illegal activities if I ever had to prove that I mean. I don't carry thosr for protection or anything. They're just part of my own personal collection that's all. I don't know for a solid fact whether or not BATF really changed the classification or not. That's what I'm really just trying to either confirm or deny. According to the BATF website that somebody emailed me a link to just says penguns that are capable of firing a bullet are firearms, I don't know if any of mine can do it. I'm certainly not gonna try it to find out. So the stalemate continues... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lone Ranger Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Based on your description probably not AOW. Far as I know there is nothing "new" about the ammunition aspect making or breaking the AOW classification. If they fire projectiles they are like any other pen gun AOW, nothing new and revolutionary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim B Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 Like anything ATFE dips the toes into it's not one size fits all... I have an original copy of the reference ID manual the predecessor of BATF, now ATFE put out post GCA 68' and it shows a typical Gas Pen as an AOW The rule of thumb is if it will fire a conventional round after 68' it became regulated under the Dodd Act. Most of the Gas Billies are a non issue so long as they have the enclosed end with the tiny hole to project the gas. That said Lake Erie made a steel 20 gauge billie that was not restricted at the muzzle and will fire a shotgun round safely but extremely painfully...those gadgets were about the size of a large Yawra Stick. Add to that many of the pens would chamber a conventional cartridge in .22, .25 or .32 and were of course smooth bored. Prior to 68' they were popular with urban gangbanger types...just like Switchblades they had to be regulated by the "Law & Order" types in Congress. ATFE has really not given much of anything over regulation of these devices...they crop up regularly at Antique shops, Flea Markets...even Gun Shows but remember that they can be prosecuted out as unregistered NFA if the DOJ has a mind to pick up the referral from LE. Yeah it's retarded but ATF was dealing with the hand that Congress dealt them in 68'. Comical part was that technically they had been NFA since 1935 however they continued to be manufactured and sold until 68'. Post 68' they were required to be in an off caliber like 5mm rim fire or 6mm RF so they couldn't fire conventional ammunition. I remember ordering a crappy 6mm Italian semi auto gas gun as a youngster in the mid 70s from a Popular Science ad. Thing broke in maybe 30 rounds The original Tasers and MBA bean bag guns were reclassified by ATF. Tasers used to use a black powder charge to expel the wired prongs, the Feds eventually ruled those as Short Barreled Shotguns. The Bean Bag guns originally used a 37mm black powder shell to shoot the bag through a rifled bore thus those were ruled "destructive devices" !!! The early versions still crop up for unregulated sale, Feds really don't panic much about it though. After all the current Air Tasers and CO2 bean bag guns are actually more effective than the powder fired early variants Mostly it's just internet types screaming into the virtual void trying to scare others over their "New" information, just saying it's nothing new and enforcement of that law is about as active as it is on interstate transfer of automatic knives which technically can only be sold interstate to Law Enforcement or Military due to the West Side Story Hysteria of Congress in the 60s. These days the LAW is openly disregarded and flaunted particularly in States that have legalized Switchblades...the ridiculous part is there never has been a federal license to sell automatic knives, even under the Feinstein Act you didn't need a license to purchase post ban high capacity mags for resale to LE agencies though many distributors demanded an FFL on the mags. Automatic knives only required a application to the company to become their dealer, no background check or anything. There was as well no mandate on record keeping on who you sold your Fully AUTO machinegun knives to, I did but it was never required under the idiot LAW. Vintage Gas pens and billies are kind of in the same territory. Short version, they can be prosecuted but I have not seen any of that since the 70s when that hype was strong. Been decades since I have been aware of a Federal prosecution over Switchblades and that was all Customs investigations over German and Italian knives being shipped in back then for collectors. Most US DAs regard these things as a waste of resources... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike todd Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 due to my investment in an indoor shooting range I have a wee bit of info to add for thought, while most of the responsible people were attending the great western in Pomona, treasury agents set up a "straw sale" with a disassembled M-1 carbine, ton of ammo and acces. somehow there were also just enough M-2 parts included to justify a raid 2 days following. along with the unregistered machine gun, they confiscated a display of non registered AOW. both gas guns and flare launchers were involved. after the usual threats etc many things were dropped. the units that went all the way had a end that screwed off the main tube with a "chamber" for the flare or? it just so happened that a 38 special ctg would also fit and blanks were actually fired as part of the evidence presented. the threats took hold and a "plea" was agreed and no one went to jail I lost my investment, and thank god never part of the indictment , but I learned about those danged launchers first hand! BY THE WAY DID I NOT SEE YOU ARE A CALIFORNIA RESIDENT? THEY ARE CERTAINLY ILLEGAL TO POSESS EVEN THE CTGS WILL GET YOU THE SAME AS A GREASE GUN. AND DONT BELIEVE THEY DONT ENFORCE TEAR GAS IN CALIFORNIA. MOST LAWYERS WILL QUOTE YOU A STARTING FEE OVER THE PHONE $35k CHEER'S MIKE TODD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorcycling951 Posted July 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 What do you mean by you lost your investment? Your money invested in that shooting range, or your money you spent buying all that stuff that got confiscated? Thanks for the info though, I'll definitely take it under advisrment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorcycling951 Posted July 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) I've read and seen pictures online about the tear gas pen that fires a 20ga shotshell or should I say, is capable of firing a 20ga shotgun shell. So apparently there used to exist 20ga tear gas catridges for it. How do you know it's extremely painful to fire a regular load through it? I assume that you must have done it before obviously. I've seen pics of that launcher but never seen anything of the tear gas loads no pics that I could find. Edited July 10, 2016 by motorcycling951 emoticons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike todd Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 Quote what do you mean lost your investment well lets see? while they loaded all the inventory unprotected in metal lilt trash bins made for fork lifts, including the british double rifles, colt Thompsons along with everything thing else just thrown in at random, they at least recorded the make model and serial # but NOTHING was wrapped or otherwise protected. the shop was of course closed. the $35,000.00 we got back for the bullet trap was the only asset recovered excepting the non gun stuff like glasses, earmuffs etc. not much back from the $700K investment in 1970 dollars? by the way I was not kidding about the gas/launchers in califa ! bad thing mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim B Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 Mike is spot on, California has been retarded for decades Not sure the law now but used to be that anything Infared in Night Vision was Banned ! Yeah an ANPVS 2 was okay as a passive imager but all Active devices were prohibited A relative was rousted by undercover State Police at Pomoma Fair Grounds over an PVS 3 rig for a M14 in the 80s. It was merely confiscated in his case. As far as shooting 20 gauge shotshells out of a older gas baton: Nope never did it, seen the results first hand. These things had a ball shaped rear. Buddy put it in his palm, slid the strike of it's cocked notch and broke most of the bones inside, couple were compound and through the back side of his hand. I had warned him though and had the dubious honor of driving him into an ER. Think like laying your hand out over an open hole and letting me full house nail your open palm with a ball peen hammer with the rounded end The gas shells were lightly loaded with black powder, mostly with a CN powder load for irritant. I'm sure they still left a bit of a mark though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorcycling951 Posted July 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 I once asked a CA DOJ inspector about exactly what the laws are regarding night vision equipment in California. I spoke with a nice helpful inspector by the name of Bonny I don't remember her last name. Anyway Bonnie explained that the night vision equipment was only illegal if one of two possible situations exist. 1) if the NVD is equipped with an in fared illuminator whitch most NVD are. 2) if the NVD has the IIrd AND IS CURRENTLY ATTACHED TO A Firearm. So if you have a NVD with an ilrc and is NOT attached or mounted on a rifle like for example if you are just using the device while holding it in your hand, and your looking through it then that is perfectly LEGAL to do. It's not illegal until you put it on a gun. Now before you ask why was Bonnie at my location in the first place... Because from1996-2005, I owned and operated a licensed Firearms store that even sold class two firearms. Yes I was a FFL/SOT in California of all states. Bonnie was conducting a routine compliance inspection. BTW no violations were ever found all paperwork was in order and all weapons were all present and accounted for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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