Neo

(Was WTB) transferable Colt M4 Commando Enhanced

Location: Memphis, TN 38111 USA

96 posts in this topic

I've already realized that I'm not going to stop at 41F either, there's going to be new suppressors, SBRs, host guns, and looks like that RDIAS may not surface on form 3 until after 41F too.  My MK-9Ks haven't cleared the form 3s to my local SOT yet, but I like its looks, size/volume, and like what I've read about it (allegedly having the best tone).  As a company, I despise Gemetch's customer service.  Lots of empty promises without any follow thu.  I know they went thru some ownership changes, but its still frustrating.  I passed up many MK-9Ks because Gemtech kept leading me on with a just around the corner order that never materialized.

Ya, I could get the readily available Colt LE6933 rollmarked M4 Carbine that you linked, yet I'm paying twice the price to obtain the same model but with what I consider to be the more desirable rollmarks. That and I've read that the new builds from Colt are all low quality junk these days compared to their vintage builds of yesteryear.


sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12th, 2016 Delivered to agent July 14th, 2016.
Check cleared July 18th, 2016. All stamps delivered to c3 on July 6th, 2017.

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You're a persistent and dedicated man, Neo. I admire that. You find what you want and you go after it. I hope you get all of these transfers without trouble and that you get to play with them to your heart's content.

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5 hours ago, Tall Pine said:

Not being facetious at all, I guess Im just slow. I cant keep up with all these unique rollmarks you're hunting/acquiring, or the exact ones TargetMaster had. I just remembered he had a few go for $40k. 

I just was floored that you paid $70k for an m16 variant, whatever rollmark it has, be it a one off or not. Sounds like you did. Congrats on getting what you wanted. Thats never a bad thing. Have a good one.

I hate to break it to you, but many people have absolutely no clue as to what is actually out there as transferrable. There are several (and by several I mean a handful) Colt ACR's (advanced combat rifles), that were papered as transferrable back in the day that can fetch far more than that. I have even seen a transferrable Colt GAU 5A M-16 (GAU 5A Marked US Property with 11.5” barrel and no forward assist. US Air Force contract. Still in use by US Air force security police. )
that would probably go for more than that if it sold on the open market. News flash...most of the really rare stuff never hits these boards and is sold private party amongst the affluent and connected. Even the stuff that does get listed from some of the more prolific collections gets picked over by the connected dealers and friends before it goes to auction or posted on Classified boards. I have seen some stuff that would really blow your mind...and transferrable. 

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wow!  you whupped me good! I tried to follow you lads and was lost after the first sentence concerning "roll marks"  personally I follow all I can about questionable post 86 firearms that have been approved and the transferee has been allowed to keep them.  an individual that I did some business with in Arizona, recognized by many as an expert in class 3 and a licensed dealer for many years is currently incarcerated at a federal prison for handling the transfer of weapons that had been remarked. of course I don't know all the facts but was told he simply did the dealer to dealer transfers for an individual from one state to another .

the govt's position was  his history and knowledge provided enough proof he knew the weapons were not legal and he was part of the conspiracy.  there is no way to describe all that went on just prior to the 86 deadline, in an attempt to maximize profits.  I observed 4'x12' sheets of 1/8" plate with no's stamped every 24", and the same with 20 ft length's of tubing. in many cases only papers were filled out. not even bothering to buy the material.   now that things have settled down we only have to deal with things like this from time to time.

often I am asked for advice from potential buyers concerning unusual examples such as this. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE, but I would rely on anything official from a mfg'r such as pat date's, production records etc. if anything conflicts even in the smallest detail , I say PASS.   what do you say to the owner of an M-60 when the paperwork AND the trunion say BM-59 ??? when he wants to trade it off, or a widow needs to liquidate  .EVERYTHING looks on the level , until you lay the weapon next to the paperwork or compare it with pic's in small arms of the world.  how far are we from ATF requiring photo's of the possible weapon in a transfer?       OKAY $70K for an m-16, not in my book  but if that makes NEO happy and all he is responsible for are fed and have shelter,  3 CHEERS FOR HIM.  I ONLY HAVE ISSUE WITH THE GREY ISSUE AND POSSIBLE CONFLICT IN THE FUTURE!

I want to add a special thanx to mr albert and all the other administrators for their patience and allowing this thread to continue. again  one of the main features of this site is the sharing of knowledge and situations we find ourselves in chasing this stuff... cheers mike


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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NEO, you seem to be a smart guy but you are repeatedly making a specific category of mistake: assuming things or taking hearsay or other unreliable sources for the truth.

Everything above is speculation until you call ATF Firearms Tech Branch and put this question to them or write a letter and get a response:

"There are on the market now several Colt registered as transferable machine guns being sold. Some have markings on the receiver that did not exist pre-1986 (eg, then offer examples) and others have forging patterns that did. ot exist until after 2000 (eg A4 reinforcements).  There is speculation and rumors on the internet that a Colt employee made these receivers with pre-1986 registered SNs long after 1986. My questions are 1.) Does such a guns existence on the registry guarantee it is a legal gun?. 2.) Is there any way I or ATF can determine if it is a legal gun?. and 3.) will ATF provide me with assurances that the gun i bought, which has post 86 rollmarks or a post 86 forging pattern or both, has a legal status that is unambiguous?"

So far your search for information is biased either by your wishful thinking or the motives of those who wish to take your money. Calling the ATF and providing the soecifics of this debate will surely remove both of those biases. 

And, the other member above is not confused you remain confused:. we are astonished that you would buy ANY m16 with ANY marking for$70,000. Have you considered that whomever you dealt with sensed your hunger and strung you along?. You do indeed come across, on this thread, as young, inexperienced, eager, and with too much money at your disposal given the former characteristics. 

And an economics lesson is in order:. values must be probability adjusted for risk. You persist in overlooking this. 

If you call the ATF, I am interested in what they say. 

Please also note that none of the rest of the posters in this thread are impacted in any way by what you paid for an m4 whatever marked gun, nor are we impacted by any mistakes you make along the way.

Thus the value to you of all the criticisms herein lies in feedback that you can use to challenge your own assumptions  Free valuable feedback that you can use to play devils advocate with yourself with.  If you are prudent and wise enough to do so.

 

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Keep in mind that I'm trying to complete my stamp collection before 41F and the fact that these exotic variants all sold within days, not a single one sat available for so much as a week.  It's a bit unrealistic to say that the prudent/experienced/patient/frugal/elderly buyer (I'm just inverting what you labeled me as) would 1st write to the ATF Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division, then wait at least 90 days for their response, before finally committing to a purchase.  Such a character would have missed the boat completely and is the type of investor that should stick exclusively to his safe place in government bonds.

Unfortunately, the ATF Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division won't answer questions by phone or email to civilians.  They will only accept written submissions submitted by letter format via snail mail.  Their response time is approximately 90 days, by US mail.  https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-and-ammunition-technology

Alternatively, I could contact my local ATF branch and see where that leads, most likely back to the Tech division tho: https://www.atf.gov/nashville-field-division

Sure, I'll send the Tech division a letter over the weekend along with a URL to photos of the firearm, a URL to a scan of the form 3, a URL to Colt's website for serial # lookup, and a URL to this thread. Crazy that they don't recognize email in the year 2016, sure makes things cumbersome and inefficient, but that's the crux of this government regulation after all.  Or, I suppose I could make them a webpage. To communicate with the insurance adjuster for my last insurance claim, I responded by submitting this webpage: goo.gl/BpUXBV

Would that work with the ATF? Just send them a postcard with a URL and trust that they can manually type the URL correctly into a web browser?  Then again, isn't this nothing more than guiding their nose to the Colt website to run the serial to see for themselves that the form 3 indeed matches the firearm: a full-auto M4 Commando Enhanced with 4 position selector model R0938 M4/M16A4 Commando HBAR 11.5" HBAR built 1998

I hear what you guys keep saying, that guns such as these can't possibly exist as transferable and that ATF approvals on machine gun transfers mean absolutely nothing.  So are you assuming that the ATF never bothers to run a check on the serials for these machine guns, unless they are specifically requested to do so?  If that's true, wouldn't that make the ATF the most incompetent government agency in the history of the world?  Is it realistic to expect the ATF to completely skip a serial check for 4 consecutive transfers within a 1 year time-frame for this particular machine gun, and to also skip serial checks for all of the other recent machine guns transfers of this ilk too?  Is anyone hearing me?

As a reminder, a simple/fast/instant check on the serials with Colt MFG returns a full-auto M4 Commando Enhanced with 4 position selector model R0938 M4/M16A4 Commando HBAR 11.5" HBAR built 1998.  If it takes you more than 30 seconds to pull a report on the serials from Colt's website, then you're doing something terribly wrong.  I'm saying its absolutely impossible for the ATF to not know exactly what they are approving as transferable in the case of this M4 Commando Enhanced.  Unless of course its as most (all?) of you are inadvertently insinuating, that the ATF is nothing more than a herd of mindless stamp lickers that drag their feet on all fours for umpteen months before they commence with their inevitable stamp licking.

I also plan to submit a FOIA request so that I can have a cross check of the full provenance/history of ownership, but must wait until the form 4 clears, perhaps sometime in 2017.

I'll admit that I'm among the least experienced when it comes to this machine gun hobby.  To start fresh, I sold off my entire gun collection earlier this year on GB in that bundled listing.  Not that this matters from a collecting/investing standpoint, but I've never held an M16/M4/AR15 in my life, at best, I've seen one from a few feet away in a gun store.  Last shot a gun 8 or so years ago, it was a friend's F/A transferable M10.  I don't plan to shoot a gun until sometime in 2017 after this batch of 24 transfers is stamped and approved by the ATF.  My first machine gun purchase closed February of 2016 and I have much to learn and little time remaining to add to my stamp collection; see my signature:

sigpic35918_2.gif Diligently completing my NFA stamp
collection
 before 41F goes into effect.

However, I'm not new to the concept of buying rare & expensive collectibles.  My strategy is very simple, but its proven to be most rewarding.  For the best returns, buy the rarest and most valuable example that you can find in the best condition that you can afford.  That's it, if you can do that, you win!  Or so my track record has proven.  Example, I bought the world's most expensive MTG card in 2008 for $13k and sold it in 2015 in a bundle deal for $169.2k to a buyer in Dubai, UAE.  I sold a pair of Neo-Geo video game cartridges for $55k in 2009 that I had purchased for < $1k in 2000, see the CNN article, section 8.  I'm still sitting on and expanding upon collections that would be considered the top 1% of the 1% for these genres.  The most recent interview request related to a collectible hobby that I'm involved in was received on Fri 6/17/2016 1:26 AM and will be printed in both English and Spanish.  For some past interview scans from magazines, scroll to the bottom: http://www.neostore.com/aboutus.asp

I'm under no delusion that machine guns will magically out-perform any of the other collectible asset classes that I dabble in, and that's why I plan to limit my exposure to machine guns over the purchasing of months, instead of years.  For machine guns are limited to the US market, to the male gender, that are free of felonies and are either citizens or legal permanent resident aliens, that also reside within free states.  Which is why all the other hobbies I'm involved in (including art, coins, comics, & baseball cards) have seen phenomenal returns compared to the relatively stagnant machine gun prices, i.e., stagnant relative to prized collectible assets that aren't limited to subsets of the US market.  The average price of rare neo games has literally doubled over just the past 4 months, yet it will probably take our machine guns many years to see their next x2 in appreciation. The retail price of an Alpha starter deck from MTG was $7.95 in 1993, today they insta-sell for $10,000.00 each, that's a multiple of 1,258x. So if you get that time machine ticket, it's not machine guns or bullion that you'll want to stockpile, not even close.

sealed.jpg

@secondofangle: Thanks for the advice to contact the Tech division.  Try that I will.  And no, I didn't hire an attorney to advise me on any of my purchases.  Common sense tells us that if there was so much as a hint of risk, an attorney would have told me to walk away just to cover his own arse (as witnessed in your case).  Besides, wouldn't you rather secure the collectible while its available instead of missing out?  You can always earn the money back, but may never have that opportunity to obtain your unicorn of unicorns again.  Same applies to original artworks.  Yes, there's risk that it could be a forgery, so we perform our due diligence until we feel secure enough to close a deal.  With machine guns, we have a government agency investing months of research into approving these transfers (and we are assuming that they aren't ignoring the serials), a layer of assurance that doesn't exist with the other collectibles.  And once these reach the hands of the upper crust, they won't surface again until there's a private estate sale that's limited to the syndicate (a ring of machine gun dealers that sell predominantly to the affluent & well connected).

Edited by Neo

sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12th, 2016 Delivered to agent July 14th, 2016.
Check cleared July 18th, 2016. All stamps delivered to c3 on July 6th, 2017.

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Dude you go to incredible lengths to prove to us how saavy you are. The lady doh protest too much, methinks?

Beware of domain specificity of knowledge and expericnce - its why you never fly with a physician who has a pilots license.  Being a brilliant doctor provides no assurrances youre a good pilot too  

And you have me confused. Several posts up youre talking about not caring if prices go up you just wanted the M4E. Now were hearing all this jazz about a bideo game collection you so sagely invested in and sold after a large appreciation. So which is it?. Is this a coveted toy or an investment?

Call the BATFE. They will talk to you.  But before you start sending them photos, Id read the story of "El curioso impertinente" imbdded in Don Quixote. 

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Furthermore you vastly overestimate the utility of colts website. None of the SNs of my 3 colt MGs come up. I challenge you to produce information from SNs of other MGs using their search feature. If you found info in that m4e, it is an anomaly not the norm. 

I spoke with Colt Archives in January. Unlike with their pistols, where you can pay $100 for a letter from their archives, you CANNOT get a letter for a MG. They just wont do it.  Show me one and prove me wrong  

So short of an investigation by an authority for whom Colt would acquiesce, you are generally not going to get information from Colt on this issue.  Furthermore, none of this has any bearing on the main issues in this thread alrelating to legal ambiguity.  Of course the SN was registered prior to /5/19/86  And of course colt can list a final build date when it was assembled 

The issue remains whether it was built on a receiver that was serial numbered in 1986 or on a post 86 receiver rolled with that SN the same time it was rolled with m4 enhanced.  

And you continue to savage your own intelligence when you insist on other, far more remote scenarios  

 

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and where on earth did you get this cockamamie idea that ATF "researches" these weapons during f4 approval?. AYFKM?. Seriously, why do you think a F4 approval entails research or in any legitimizes a weapon?

Are you familiar with the cases where a SN from one gun was welded to another and approved - and later confiscated?

Dude, you are really shooting in the dark here. Your assumptions and your overconfidence in a totally new domain for you are truly astounding. 

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and where on earth did you get this cockamamie idea that ATF "researches" these weapons during f4 approval?. AYFKM?. Seriously, why do you think a F4 approval entails research or in any legitimizes a weapon?

I suppose the fact that everyone says that the ATF puts the most emphasis on serial numbers.  That the ATF is requesting photographs of machine guns as part of the transfer approval process.  The fact that the ATF is being so thorough right now and how they are scrubbing everything.  The fact that the ATF is spending 3 months on form 3s and half a year on form 4s, also gave me the impression that they must be doing more than mere stamp licking.  Enlighten us then.  If the firearm's serials, firearm's photographs, firearm's transfer forms, and extraordinary amounts of time and resources are not being utilized to review the firearm being transferred, then what do you propose that all of this is being used for?

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I spoke with Colt Archives in January. Unlike with their pistols, where you can pay $100 for a letter from their archives, you CANNOT get a letter for a MG. They just wont do it.  Show me one and prove me wrong  

Not sure why you are bringing up Colt's archival department, you could have spared yourself and Colt a phone call by reading their FAQ:
colt-archive.jpg
-source: http://www.colt.com/Customer-Services/Archive-Services

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And you have me confused. Several posts up youre talking about not caring if prices go up you just wanted the M4E. Now were hearing all this jazz about a bideo game collection you so sagely invested in and sold after a large appreciation. So which is it?. Is this a coveted toy or an investment?

Must I play by your rules and choose whether each gun I buy is to remain exclusively a range toy and which is to remain exclusively an investment?  I was under the impression that a transferable machine gun could be both.  Regardless, you're taking what I've said out of context.  I said that I'd be OK with the ATF rendering this gun a keeper vs. forcing me to sell as a $1500 post-sample (and where are people finding dealer sample Colt M4 Commando Enhanced for $1500 btw?  Or any at all for that matter?).  I also explained how I felt about values here.  But if you must know, here's my plans at the moment (always subject to change though):
Transferable Colt M4 Commando Enhanced = safe queen
NIB Colt LE6933 rollmarked M4LE = potential range toy

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Are you familiar with the cases where a SN from one gun was welded to another and approved - and later confiscated?

You're really shooting in the dark here.  Your example isn't remotely related.  This transferable isn't suspect of being a clone or remark, pre-ban serials weren't welded onto a post-sample, and everyone who has seen pictures of this gun is unequivocally convinced that this was a factory original build by Colt.

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Of course the SN was registered prior to /5/19/86  And of course colt can list a final build date when it was assembled The issue remains whether it was built on a receiver that was serial numbered in 1986 or on a post 86 receiver rolled with that SN the same time it was rolled with m4 enhanced.

Colt has far more information on file than just the model and final assembly date, but you have to call for that information. The first person I spoke with told me freely exactly what this firearm was with more detailed info, but obviously he couldn't tell me what day the individual components were manufactured and marked.  I don't have all of the answers, but fortunately you seem to have them all.  Please explain how one proves that a receiver was serialized in the year of 1986.  Photos with a newspaper?  Carbon dating?  Those methods are flawed and easily forged.  Concluding that a certain receiver wasn't available in year x?  Couldn't said receiver have been modified?  Couldn't said receiver have existed in 1986 as a prototype?  Wouldn't devil's advocate work both ways for virtually any situation?

Edited by Neo

sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12th, 2016 Delivered to agent July 14th, 2016.
Check cleared July 18th, 2016. All stamps delivered to c3 on July 6th, 2017.

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When I called Colt about an M16A2 I was told they would not talk to me unless i was ATF or LEO regarding MGs  

Also, why the rush for 41F?. If you currently have no items on a blank trust, there is no point to submit prior to 7/13 unless you goofed and listed a bunch if trustees in the origignal trust.   If youre the only RP in the trust tou could submit all this at your leisure bust get some prints and a pic then add trustees after its all approved. 

Then you would not have to have your dealer engage in the dubious practice of submitting an F4 b4 an f3 is approved. 

Im astonished, more and more with each post how a dude who has no NFA items and just began trolling the internet now thinks hes a well versed expert in these matters  its amaazing really

 

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2 hours ago, secondofangle said:

Im astonished, more and more with each post how a dude who has no NFA items and just began trolling the internet now thinks hes a well versed expert in these matters  its amaazing really

I’m the troll?  Who’s WTB thread was this?  Who’s the one losing his cool and making condescending & derogatory personal attacks against the OP?  Who was it that joined sturm and made 15 nihilistic posts confined only to this very thread while dodging/ignoring most/all of the pro-transferable points & questions?  Look in the mirror.
black-kettle.jpg

I'm admin/owner/founder of a forum that has 4 million posts, a forum that has received more new posts in a day than sturm has total, so I've dealt with a fair share of trolls such as yourself.  Hey, I get it.  I’m passionate about acquiring transferable machine guns, and you’re overzealous about seeing the transferable machine guns that you covet(ed), but failed to acquire, be reclassified as post-samples. –source

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Also, why the rush for 41F?. If you currently have no items on a blank trust, there is no point to submit prior to 7/13 unless you goofed and listed a bunch if trustees in the origignal trust.

Will submitting under 41F require my fingerprints, photographs, and mandatory CLEO notifications?  If so, then there’s a compelling motive to have a gun trust grandfathered under the current regulations before 41F.  You can learn more about this here.

Anyways, I'm done feeding the troll.  I'll report back in this thread when I hear something definitive.

Edited by Neo

sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12th, 2016 Delivered to agent July 14th, 2016.
Check cleared July 18th, 2016. All stamps delivered to c3 on July 6th, 2017.

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your grasp of the point of a trust and of 41f and their advantages and disadvantages is fragile at best  Youre spouting off "IM GOING TO GET A TRUST AND CRAM ON 50 NFA items before July 13th so theyre grandfathered!") like you have discovered some sort of Rosetta stone when in reality this big rush does you no good because your current trust is empty. Unless there is some problem with NEOs fingerprints that we dont know about. All this to save you one set of fingerprints and a passport photo.  

I cease and desist attempting to help you. There is no point youre immune to all information that doesnt suit you for whatever reason 

You will just troll the internet (as in trolling motor, not urban dictionary trolling - sheesh) and become a de novo expert in all matters NFA - regardless of having ZERO practical experience in the matter other that opening a checkbook. 

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The way I see it, you're Both passionate about guns for dissimilar, yet equally valid, reasons and with diametrically opposed philosophies regarding life in general. But that's OK - you're both "Gun Guys" and on the Correct side of the line… It's quite easy to get angry and attack one another over the internet but I'd wager that face-to-face you'd rapidly become friends. Never forget that it is All of Us against the endless Legions of Kommies, NATO, EU, Hill-Billary Klinton and Barack Obama bin Laden. We Must support and look out for one another Not go after each other... So why don't you Both just agree to respect such differing opinions, "shake hands" and continue to pursue your passions as you each deem fit? No egregious acts have been committed and I believe we've All learned something from this thread in order that the end result could be best described as: Good.

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Michael: Precision Technology: 07 FFL / Class 2 Mfg in AZ: pt72@mac.com

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Proud to be an NRA LifeEndowmentPatron and Benefactor member as well as remaining an NRA Golden Eagle for many years.

Give to the NRA each and every year until it Hurts and VOTE Every Election (city, county, state & federal)!! We must be steadfast in protecting our precious Second Amendment Rights.

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^^^^ Yeah, THIS guy is right.

I want as many transferable M16s on the market as possible.  Indeed, even though I'm totally "invested" to the tune of $100K or more, I would probably close my eyes and swallow hard and then breathe a sigh of relief if the Hughes amendment were repealed.  And I wish that I or my father had had the foresight to get into this market 20+ years ago, what a boon that would have been and how much fun we would have had! 

Hopefully one day our children will thank us for getting into this market before it was even more prohibitively priced so that our future generations can share the joy of true freedom - which in my mind involves flipping a happy switch every now an again, as impractical as it may seem to outsiders.

Final note - I'm getting older.  Got a kid on the way, and I'm far behind the curve of my comtemporaries.  I've begun to see that one MG (and maybe 2 or 3 spare uppers) could last me and my entire extended family a lifetime of fun.  Which has begun to win out over my desire to collect these things.  Shooting them leads to ear to ear grins and FB videos and memorable experiences.  I think of this Colt Collector, who is supposedly not with his wits anymore and I think wow, he had all these MGs and they sat in a closet for all those years - how many grins were lost for decades that could have been shared if these things were being shot all those years?  Hopefully our families get more enjoyment and memories before we're all dead (time flies, doesn't it?) to extract the true value of these things before it's too late.  Otherwise, it's just money in the bank for some kids who just don't get it, and want to stay glued to an iphone as life flies by them.

Food for thought.

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YEAH THIS GUY IS RIGHT

which one? ALL ?  I'm still confused , must be the meds . certainly cant have anything to do with all the "roll marks"  " forgings"  " archives".  I was certainly entertained ,and hope to use much of the proffered info that I can back up with facts in the future. somewhere the whole thing got lost and became a "post round" clubhouse discussion about who has what and who has the longest or thickest one by the original "WTB POSTER"   while attempting to devalue the information offered  by dedicated enthusiast's only trying to keep a newbie from doing something completely unrealistic.   like the two kettle's talking in one post, like minded folks are quick to recognize others with common ground and will gravitate to one another to the benefit of ALL.  one cannot do everything on his own, and ego will only help you find your best friend (yourself) then you are truly ALONE. my father taught me there comes a time to shut up and listen in EVERY conversation.  most of my experience with nfa pre dates the post 86 madness and I rely on many of the folks here for current factual updates.  DID NOT SOMEONE MENTION BEING ADMINISTRATOR OF A FORUM WITH 4 MILLON POSTS ? WONDER WHY HE BOTHERED TO COME HERE WITH A CLOSED MIND? perhaps rev moon got more followers by such surfing?  thanx for all the good stuff in this thread! I do know  who /  what to ignore  mike


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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9 hours ago, secondofangle said:

^^^^ Yeah, THIS guy is right.

 

5 hours ago, mike todd said:

which one? ALL ?  I'm still confused , must be the meds .

Mike: 

secondofangle was referring to my comments situated just above his. The other post in Blue - same color as this one.


Michael: Precision Technology: 07 FFL / Class 2 Mfg in AZ: pt72@mac.com

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Proud to be an NRA LifeEndowmentPatron and Benefactor member as well as remaining an NRA Golden Eagle for many years.

Give to the NRA each and every year until it Hurts and VOTE Every Election (city, county, state & federal)!! We must be steadfast in protecting our precious Second Amendment Rights.

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Rejoice and be merry, for I bring wonderful tidings!  I have communicated with an extremely knowledgeable specialist at the NFA branch and explained that I purchased a transferable full-auto Colt M4 Commando Enhanced with 4 position selector built 1998.  I also explained how the general consensus from NFA dealers & collectors is to unanimously condemn this firearm as a mistake, how there's no way this could be transferable, and how this gun is a phone call away from the inevitable swat team confiscation.

The agent was already familiar and well informed of the situation with Colt's modernized machine guns that exist as transferables.  He gave me 39 minutes of his time by phone and confirmed much if not all of what I had already been led to believe.  The agent assured me that I needn't worry about this gun being reclassified as post-sample or being confiscated since the serials were registered prior to May 1986.  He went on to say that Colt did indeed enhance and remark some of their transferables and how never to take apart the 4-pos because of the complexity (this agent was very much a gun guy).  He said that the ATF isn't out there to take our guns away and that the blogs (implying forums) out there are almost always 100% WRONG in their assumptions.

I had also emailed him (and another ATF specialist) the original high resolution pictures that the seller/dealer provided me with, a link to this thread, along with the form 3 and soon to be filed form 4 for review.  I was given the OK to update field 4.d. Model to the correct full model name of M4 Commando Enhanced, and to update the caliber to 5.56 so that ALL of section 4 (Description of the Firearm) will match this firearm perfectly.  The ATF will also update their records on this firearm to reflect what it currently is.  I was instructed to include printed photographs along with a memo for the examiner and to instruct the examiner to contact this specialist if there are any concerns.

I'm told to expect an email including a ‘party line paragraph’ that will more thoroughly and officially explain the ATFs approval/acceptance of these modernized Colt builds with pre-ban serials.  If I'm allowed to share this ‘party line paragraph’ publicly, I'll do so.

Rest assured, the following definitive facts are now confirmed on behalf of the BATF NFA branch that these are:

  1. Fully documented and authorized by the ATF as transferable.
  2. Ultra Ultra Rare2 (1-off rarity in some cases)
  3. Among the most current and state of the art up-to-date weapons in the entire NFA Registry!!!

I agreed not to share the agent's name or email publicly.  However, if you are a fellow owner, you can contact me by PM and I will point you towards the correct NFA specialist to verify these findings on your end.  Thanks for leading me to the NFA branch and big congratulations to the other buyers out there who secured the handful of other modernized and transferable factory original Colt rarities that had insta sold.

Edited by Neo
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sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12th, 2016 Delivered to agent July 14th, 2016.
Check cleared July 18th, 2016. All stamps delivered to c3 on July 6th, 2017.

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Love the little M16 variants. Saw a NIB M16A1 Commando 12" with birdcage in a pawnshop in Fayetteville in 1992 for $2500. I had just paid $1000ish for  a Colt M16A1 carbine two years earlier, so I couldn't bring myself to spend that much on another.  Kicking myself now (although I've picked up some other nice pieces along the way).  As for $70,000, it would have to be a Stoner, an FG42, or V150 Commando for me to part with that kind of coin for a single item. As I am getting older and have seen the ceiling of an emergency room and ICU  more than a few times than I prefer, I find myself wanting a condo at the beach instead.

Edited by Waffen Und Bier

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Neo,

Hasn't your collection advanced enough where you're collecting things like belt feds or exotic stuff? You can only buy so many MP5s before you have them all.

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I live on a zero lot that's very much dead center of Memphis, TN (1.3 million MSA pop), so the belt feds, miniguns, and tanks should go to a better home. Like someone with a hummer, land, and a balcony or flat roof for setting up their turret defense. I suspect that such WMDs would be perma banned from paper shredding at any of the local ranges anyways. I'm still newish to this hobby so I'm sure there's a ton more out there that I'm not even aware of, but time is up for project 41F. Taking all 24 form 4s to my SOT to be signed and dated tomorrow.  Then its off to printing gun photographs, writing memos to the examiner, arranging everything for the packet, and mailing to ATF on July 12th.


sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12th, 2016 Delivered to agent July 14th, 2016.
Check cleared July 18th, 2016. All stamps delivered to c3 on July 6th, 2017.

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Neo,

Thanks for all of your posts...it has been very entertaining and informative... I wish you luck with all your Transfers... please keep us all up to date with pictures of live fire ... your  enthusiasm is truly amazing.

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The M4 Commando Enhanced cleared transfer by form 3, was NOT reclassified as a post-sample, and arrived this week!  The seller triple boxed, and yet my dealer was surprised that it wasn't wrapped in a quilt, lol.  No live fire videos to provide at this time, but here's some pics taken today while visiting my local SOT.

m4ce.jpg
m4ce2.jpgneo-m4ce.jpg
safe2.jpg

Edited by Neo
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sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12th, 2016 Delivered to agent July 14th, 2016.
Check cleared July 18th, 2016. All stamps delivered to c3 on July 6th, 2017.

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When did you submit your form 3? That seemed kind of quick.

Im still waiting for the first leg of a double form 4, with the first form 4 to my dealer. 

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PayPal payment sent on June 20, 2016.
Dealer submitted form 3 to BATFE on June 20, 2016.
Dealer shipped the M4 Commando Enhanced by FedEx on August, 19th, 2016, see tracking.

I notice that another form 3 cleared a day faster, was from Frank Goepfert of Midwest Tactical for a Norrell 10/22 trigger pack.
Dealer submitted form 3 to BATFE on May 15th, 2016.
Dealer shipped July 13th, 2016, see tracking.

From what I've read, form 4s take just as long from individual to individual as it does for individual to dealer, and those are averaging 6+ months now.  I'm in the same boat as you with NFA items that are transferring by form 4s to my dealer and likely have another month or two remaining before approval. One of which was submitted early March and just received a correction request letter from the ATF this week (so approximately 30 days remaining on that one), so right at 6 months.


sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12th, 2016 Delivered to agent July 14th, 2016.
Check cleared July 18th, 2016. All stamps delivered to c3 on July 6th, 2017.

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Dayum, look at you with a new safe for all your new goodies.lol. That's awesome. Color me jealous, you have a couple dozen very nice toys inside that thing!! Enjoy the wait. Having so many Pending at once might actually make the time fly by even faster...the mind can't focus on any one for too long.lol

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The form 4 to dealer is highly unpredictable.

I've heard people say that a Form 4 to dealer take just as long as a Form 4 to individual, and I've also heard people say that a Form 4 to dealer is like the wait time for a Form 3.

I have found both to be true.

I last had a Form 4 to dealer that only took 10 weeks, and then I still have a Form 4 to dealer going on 18 weeks with probably many more weeks to come. Both were submitted around the same approximate time.

Congrats on your purchase.

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Neo, thanks for posting photos. That is a very neat m16 indeed! 

A recommendation re: safes. You now have a collection worthy of something far more secure than a standard RSC gun safe. I strongly suggest you look into a composite TL30x6 (actually I believe all TL30x6 are composite). AMSEC makes one specifically designed as a gun safe. Less expensive option is to find one that is used/reconditioned from a safe and vault store. A proper size x6 is going to weigh just at or over 2 tons and for insurance purposes in the diamond industry they can usually store $750k of insured valuables. They are cumbersome and expensive, but worth it.

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You read my mind, next on the menu is indeed a dedicated gun safe. Thanks for your suggestion, that TL30x6 is clearly at the top for intrusion resistance, but I'm leaning towards something from Browning. I like how everything is rubberized and floor/ceiling/walls are carpeted. From what I'm seeing, Browning's interior protection ranks among the top for pampering a gun collection, and that's a top priority of mine in regards to gun protection. It doesn't need to be a 2 ton+ safe with ballistic armor, because I also have a watch dog, security system (windows/doors/motion), security cameras at our cove's entrance, a tall brick wall surrounding/enclosing our well lit cove, and the subdivision we are within includes a paid security patrol. I'm more concerned about when the unsustainable entitlement programs end and Memphis (Detroit #2) becomes a ground zero, will wish this house had bullet proof glass w/ The Purge style reinforcements. Anywho, this won't be the heaviest or thickest, and far from the most expensive, but it seems like the the perfect solution internally for a gun collection:


cq5dam.web.1200.1200.jpeg
However, since their Black Label Tactical Mark IV safe was released over 3 years ago (and they have been releasing new models in 3 year intervals), I'm going to wait to see what their next generation (Mark V?) is like. Plenty of time to decide on a safe, at least 6 more months before any form 4 approvals.

Runner ups:
http://www.brownsafe.com/tactical-safe/index.html
http://www.brownsafe.com/estate-safes/index.html
http://www.rhinosafe.com/product-category/products/gun-safes/rhino-ironworks-supreme-series/

And something I ran across that was cool as hell in carbon fiber, but totally impractical and not a consideration:
http://www.brownsafe.com/chronos/carbon-fiber.htm


sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12th, 2016 Delivered to agent July 14th, 2016.
Check cleared July 18th, 2016. All stamps delivered to c3 on July 6th, 2017.

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Neo, don't cheap out on a safe.  Your collection warrants a composite TL30 or better yet a TL30x6.  Those safes you are looking at are residential security containers (RSC) and are easily defeated using a Sawzall or in some cases as little as a crowbar with a cheater bar.  In light of the fact that you live in Memphis, you NEED a true UL-listed high security safe.

Fancy rubber interiors are no substitute for security and you can easily have a custom interior made (or make it yourself) for a high security safe.  Don't be led astray by fancy finishes and interiors. Buy a UL-listed composite TL30 (not a plate steel TL30) or TL30x6.  For added protection, you can alarm the safe including  seismic sensor, door sensor, and tilt sensor to add layers of security.  Nothing short of a dedicated well experienced safe cracker will be able to get into a composite TL30x6.  And even then, it would at a very least take them longer than 30 minutes to crack the safe.  The addition of an alarm with the aforementioned sensors with wifi and cellular connectivity will ensure that should anyone attempt an attack, they would have insufficient time to get in before the police arrive. Such a safe will weigh about 2 tons. Bolt it to the foundation or floor and it is not going anywhere.  Even if you don't bolt to the floor/foundation, it is not likely going anywhere. And in the very unlikely event someone attempted to move it, the seismic sensor will trigger the alarm.

Please heed this advice.  As owners of transferable MGs we are stewards of valuable irreplaceable assets and I feel we should view this seriously and ensure these are preserved for future generations. Properly securing these items is essential to this.

Edited by JoshNC

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All 24 pre-41F forms were approved by the ATF as submitted without any changes required. The original agent that was aware of these modernized Colt transferables was out of office at the time that my file was being reviewed and the examiner assigned was mighty thorough with her investigation, just as I had requested in my included Attention Examiner letter.  I have email confirmation from the examiner that the high resolution printed pictures & burned disc pertaining to this very Colt M4 Commando Enhanced, manufactured in 1998, were received to assist in the investigation, "We see an attached letter with a CD of photos attached. Also, noticed the folders have those same photos enclosed."  So now, in addition to the special agent that assured me of this Colt M4 Commando Enhanced's legitimacy as a transferable and guided me through the completion of it's form 4, I also have email records with the examiner at the ATF stating that they verified the records with Colt directly, "I have reached out to Colt and am just awaiting a response from them on the proper model designation to ensure we have that 100%. Often they designate “M4” as the model and the following content just being additional variant info."  After a 360 day wait, the approved form 4 indeed matches this Colt transferable machine gun exactly/perfectly/correctly, and I have absolute confidence & confirmation that this transfer did not simply slip through the system:
m4-stamp.jpg

I realize that there will always be some non-owner skeptics that will never admit that a Colt transferable rarer than a standard M16A2 could legally exist and will stubbornly ignore all support/confirmations/blessings that the ATF provides to the contrary. This is the same illogical and yet familiar denial that some non-owners have for machine guns in general, by condemning them as overpriced toys that aren't worth more than their parts. Nevertheless, here's further proof that such exotic Colts do exist as perfectly legal transferables and in a comparable price range as the 1-off Colt M4 Commando Enhanced once had.  This one is limited to only 12 in the registry!
ARC.jpg
-source: http://www.davidspiwak.com/gun/colt-arc-test-rifle/

And here's your chance to get an M16A2 Enhanced 4-position H-BAR @ $65k asking (verified with various ATF agents to be somewhere between 8 to 12 Enhanced Colts in the registry):
http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/index.cgi?db=nfafirearms&website=&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=29313&query=retrieval

For a real safe, I decided on the Fort Knox Legend with distressed finish.  It has that cool factor I desire + top tier security (stainless steel requires a plasma cutter to breach @ 1" per minute speed, not taking into account further layers/liners):

 

Edited by Neo

sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12th, 2016 Delivered to agent July 14th, 2016.
Check cleared July 18th, 2016. All stamps delivered to c3 on July 6th, 2017.

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Did you get the Ar500 liner?

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I haven't ordered yet, but it's what I've decided on unless someone convinces me otherwise (customization recommendations are most welcome). The ArmaKnox 3/16" AR500 Liner comes standard with their Legend line. There is an option to add Carbon Steel Liners, but wouldn't that be overkill? Seems like the internal real estate would be more beneficial.

  1. Stainless Steel 1/2" body (standard)
  2. Stainless Steel 10 Gauge Liner (standard)
  3. ArmaKnox 3/16″ AR500 Liner (standard)
  4. 10 guage Carbon Steel Liner (up to 2 layers maximum)

Here's the configuration I favor:
legend_safe.jpg

 


sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12th, 2016 Delivered to agent July 14th, 2016.
Check cleared July 18th, 2016. All stamps delivered to c3 on July 6th, 2017.

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That is definitely very nice. For that price you could order a TL rated safe as well and I'll let the safe guys debate which is better. I had a hard time finding commercial safe guys that would deliver to a residence.

I ordered from ce safes in Miami. Since they delivered.

IMG_2193.jpg
make url for image

 

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Neo,

Very cool! 

Glad everything went as planned. 

I am astonished at your persistence. 

Especially when  being told your  wrong by some experts,  with real experience. 

It is refreshing to see a newbie  do something  that is against  the stream...

Question  the norm! We need more  like you. 

A old dog can be taught  new tricks. 

For safes, I would be more  concerned about fire than anything else. 

One more request... please post video of your new weapons  test firing,  for the rest of us poor bastards. 

Keep Shooting 

Thanks brother 

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I know this is an old thread but Colt did provide factory letters for machineguns at one time.  I have one for my transferrable M16A1 which I purchased in 1998.  It showed the original configuration and showed it was shipped from Colt to an individual in 1995.

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