Neo

(Was WTB) transferable Colt M4 Commando Enhanced

Location: Memphis, TN 38111 USA

90 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

This guy has one for sale:

targetmaster1@verizon.net

 

Edited by Craigan
Android auto correct

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Posted (edited)

The floodgate broke on the transferable M16 platform with perhaps 100+ of these models/variants listed for sale publicly at the moment spread across GB, sturm, subguns, autoweapons, etc., so I'm looking for alternative sources.  Just as with my WTB ad for the Norrell 10/22, I was looking for alternatives outside of Frank of Midwest Firearms, but ultimately ended up buying his GB listing anyways:
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/forums/index.php?/topic/3112-wtb-norrell-1022-trigger-pack-w-or-wo-host/#comment-8543

Let the offers roll in. I'm shopping for a steel RDIAS too btw:
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/forums/index.php?/topic/3170-wtb-billistics-rdias-on-a-form-3-or-form-4-if-in-tn/#comment-8747

 

Edited by Neo

sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12thdelivered to agent July 14th,
check cleared July 18th, & stamp ETA: Feb/March 2017.

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I really doubt there is more then one of them on the market. Maybe two of them. If you want it, target masters has one. Buy it. 

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Posted (edited)

I get the strong impression that the Colt AR15/M16 is the the most common transferable machine gun platform there is, as in there is obviously more supply than there are collectors since there's such a silly-fat glut of these out there, but this particular variant (the M4 Enhanced 4-position as a factory original build) just caught my eye a day ago, and that's where my shopping/research experience begins for Colts.  So, considering how ultra-common the transferable Colt AR15/M16s are, I'm shocked to learn that there may only be one or two M4 Enhanced units listed for sale on the market right now.  That would make these on par with HK trigger frame rarity, which are basically of uncommon scarcity.  Not bad!  However, I'm not finding a transferable 'M4 Commando Enhanced' (see subject title and my sig below for reference) listed for sale at the moment.  I sent targetmaster an email yesterday asking about his M4 Commando Enhanced, but no response yet. How often do those pop up and what do they usually sell for?  Are they as uncommon as the M4 Enhanced?  I'd like to buy one within the next week; last minute shopping before 41F sunrise.  Payment in full upfront, preferably same day.

Edited by Neo

sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12thdelivered to agent July 14th,
check cleared July 18th, & stamp ETA: Feb/March 2017.

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They are as uncommon as any of them. The only question you should ask yourself is are you comfortable taking a roll with $50k on an item that might invite a knock on your door with an ATF agent coming to collect it? You won't get anything for it, if you are lucky you *MIGHT* get to keep it but it can never be transferred to anyone after you, and would have to be turned in as a post sample? Because that's the $49,995 question. The M4 enhanced wasn't launched until the early 2000's. So while I *could* see maybe colt had an XM4 designed before the 86 cut off there is no question in my mind the M4 enhanced lowers you are seeing was actually built after the cut off and replaced by colt. Which at one time was kosher, it was ok for the original manufacture to replace a broken suppressor for example. Olympic arms replaced some lowers in this way, and those are questionable as all hell because oly usually just built the lowers, but they were converted by a different company(like PAWS or weapon Specalities). Colt could have done the same sort of thing, but again no word on if the ATF is ok with that(or if they even know it happened), they did say it is no longer kosher so the practice has been stopped. 

So is it worth $50k to chance? 

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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, Neo said:

I get the strong impression that the Colt AR15/M16 is the the most common transferable machine gun platform there is, as in there is obviously more supply than there are collectors since there's such a silly-fat glut of these out there, but this particular variant (the M4 Enhanced 4-position as a factory original build) just caught my eye a day ago, and that's where my shopping/research experience begins for Colts.  So, considering how ultra-common the transferable Colt AR15/M16s are, I'm shocked to learn that there may only be one or two M4 Enhanced units listed for sale on the market right now.  That would make these on par with HK trigger frame rarity, which are basically of uncommon scarcity.  Not bad!  However, I'm not finding a transferable 'M4 Commando Enhanced' (see subject title and my sig below for reference) listed for sale at the moment.  I sent targetmaster an email yesterday asking about his M4 Commando Enhanced, but no response yet. How often do those pop up and what do they usually sell for?  Are they as uncommon as the M4 Enhanced?  I'd like to buy one within the next week; last minute shopping before 41F sunrise.  Payment in full upfront, preferably same day.

Refrain

Edited by Marshall U
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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, damcv62 said:

They are as uncommon as any of them. The only question you should ask yourself is are you comfortable taking a roll with $50k on an item that might invite a knock on your door with an ATF agent coming to collect it? You won't get anything for it, if you are lucky you *MIGHT* get to keep it but it can never be transferred to anyone after you, and would have to be turned in as a post sample? Because that's the $49,995 question. The M4 enhanced wasn't launched until the early 2000's. So while I *could* see maybe colt had an XM4 designed before the 86 cut off there is no question in my mind the M4 enhanced lowers you are seeing was actually built after the cut off and replaced by colt. Which at one time was kosher, it was ok for the original manufacture to replace a broken suppressor for example. Olympic arms replaced some lowers in this way, and those are questionable as all hell because oly usually just built the lowers, but they were converted by a different company(like PAWS or weapon Specalities). Colt could have done the same sort of thing, but again no word on if the ATF is ok with that(or if they even know it happened), they did say it is no longer kosher so the practice has been stopped. 

So is it worth $50k to chance? 

Refrain

 

Edited by Marshall U
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The former Colt employee also had unprecedented access to fresh blank receivers and a roll stamp machine

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Posted (edited)

@secondofangle: You joined 6 minutes ago, I assume to be a whistle blower on this stash of new exotic and unheard of transferables.  Are you implying that this 4-pos M4 Enhanced is less than legitimate in the eyes of the ATF and is more along the lines of a franken-postie?  Please elaborate.

Edited by Neo

sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12thdelivered to agent July 14th,
check cleared July 18th, & stamp ETA: Feb/March 2017.

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Posted (edited)

I did this to save you from the fate that nearly befell me in Dec when I was about to spend $80,000 on two guns made from post-1989 receivers and others saved me. Unlike a house, you cannot get title insurance for these so if they are ever declared illegitimate  youre screwed. I retained a PA NFA lawyer to advise me in the matter. I was told that short of sending the gun to the ATF Firearms Technology Branch for inspection (with a post-1989 manufacturer [well known and confirmed with Colt - company name changed after 1989 reorganization] rollmark plain as day as in the link in your OP), there is no way to make sure such a gun is in the clear.  I cancelled the sale.  Far too risky for me.  You may be of a different ilk. 

Edited by secondofangle
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And PS I was just as defensive as you when others tried to warn me at first

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If you were my client I would advise you to walk away. 

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Posted (edited)

Refrain

Edited by Marshall U
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The Colt M16A2/M4 Enhanced with the four-position selector didn't come out until 1998. US Patent 5,760,328

And only in 1990 did the manufacturer rollmark change from Colt's Firearms Division to Colt's Mfg. Co. Inc.

No way this is transferable.

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Posted (edited)

Oh its transferrable and has recently transferred on a Form 3, thats not at issue.  And indeed that is the only flimsy "proof" these PA dealers will offer that its "legit".  "It transferred so it must be OK!"

What is at issue is that almost assuredly its listed as a M16A2 on the F2 F3 F4 and theres no way you can know that inless dealer shows you the F4 F3 or you wait five years for a FOIA. 

Problem is ATF knows only model, make barrel length and SN and in the former two cases they dont scrutinize very much. If they had pictures of the markings it would be an entirely different story. Check TOF for a similar thread - a guy had ATF come get pictures of his receiver. Buy a gun like the OP and you will live the next 10 years in soiled shorts hopng they dont knock on your door.

Owning one of thesenis like having Trump for President rollmarked on the gun  While that doesnt "prove" from deductive logic that it didnt exist in 1986, I think it proves it beyond a reasonable doubt.  How else could the manufacturer be listed as a company designation that didnt exist until 1989?

Or, somebody can go swat the hornets nest and call ATF and specifically inquire about this issue.  I was satisfied after the lawyers just told me to stay away. at $5,000 i would have risked it. Its like totalling a used motorcycle. At $30-50K its like totaling a new BMW wih no insurance. 

Caveat Emptor. 

Waiting for OP to weigh in. Bet hes been on the phone a lot today. 

Edited by secondofangle
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Posted (edited)

The seller, targetmaster, said, "This is 100% original Colt factory gun.  The serial # was registered prior to making this gun so that is how it is transferable with the modern receiver."

12 hours ago I offered to buy both his M4 Enhanced + XM4 but wanted more proof on the M4 Enhanced such as form 3. The seller just informed me that they have both sold for his full asking price of $99,990.00 ($49,995.00 each).  The form 3 was never revealed to me.

Edited by Neo

sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12thdelivered to agent July 14th,
check cleared July 18th, & stamp ETA: Feb/March 2017.

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A registered serial number without a receiver has been disallowed many times in the past by the BATF.

 

Looks like somebody did you a favor buying the guns first.

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... on top of the fact the A prefix serial number didn't come out until the 1990's. Translate, I call bullshit.

SAMMY!

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Yar, no regrets on the M4 Enhanced I suppose, for the M4 Commando Enhanced is more desirable IMO. About that untouched/unfired NIB XM4 proto, it may have been an inside hook & crook job by the former Colt employee, but at least it had the pedigree to pass off as legit.

1983-1986: US Property marked M16A2 & US Property marked XM4 prototypes Colt's Model 720.
-source: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/241681_.html


sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12thdelivered to agent July 14th,
check cleared July 18th, & stamp ETA: Feb/March 2017.

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I don't want to keep repeating myself, but when it was me, I was glad as a goat that I passed on the purchase.  I don't have unlimited funds and risk tolerance.  I will push it with the funds (even though, IMHO $40,000 is top dollar for one of these), but I will NOT take additional risks beyond  those that exist with any NFA "investment".

Congrats, Neo, for NOT buying one of these.  And that is a sincere statement.

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PS and I agree, the XM4 had no telltale markings to suggest it was a remake.  That appears to be a true collector item, if only because it will be impossible to prove that it did not predate May 19th, 1986.

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16 hours ago, SAMMY! said:

... on top of the fact the A prefix serial number didn't come out until the 1990's. Translate, I call bullshit.

SAMMY!

I ask this question in earnest with no malice or argumentative rhetoric implied...I mean that sincerely, as the reason I redacted my above comments were due to the fact that it appeared this thread was degenerating...

But I must implore you...

 

The address on the weapon says:

Colts MFG CO. INC.

Hartford, CT

The address on the form states;

Colt Firearms

Hartford, CT

If what you say is true ("...on top of the fact the A prefix serial number didn't come out until the 1990's), under what plausible scenario could Colt (or anyone else for that matter) have been able to enter a (multiple) valid "A" prefix serial number(s) into the NFA registry as transferable, post 1986? How is that possible, if (as you portend) "the A prefix serial number did not come out until the 1990's"?

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33 minutes ago, Marshall U said:

I ask this question in earnest with no malice or argumentative rhetoric implied...I mean that sincerely, as the reason I redacted my above comments were due to the fact that it appeared this thread was degenerating...

But I must implore you...

 

The address on the weapon says:

Colts MFG CO. INC.

Hartford, CT

The address on the form states;

Colt Firearms

Hartford, CT

If what you say is true ("...on top of the fact the A prefix serial number didn't come out until the 1990's), under what plausible scenario could Colt (or anyone else for that matter) have been able to enter a (multiple) valid "A" prefix serial number(s) into the NFA registry as transferable, post 1986? How is that possible, if (as you portend) "the A prefix serial number did not come out until the 1990's"?

I'm reading it as Sammy is also saying the guns where produced after May 1986. That they are bullshit. 

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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, damcv62 said:

I'm reading it as Sammy is also saying the guns where produced after May 1986. That they are bullshit. 

I asked a question (specifically of Sammy). Thank you for your input...can you answer the question? 

 

Under what plausible scenario could Colt (or anyone else for that matter) have been able to enter a (multiple) valid "A" prefix serial number(s) into the NFA registry as transferable, post 1986? How is that possible, if (as you portend) "the A prefix serial number did not come out until the 1990's"?

Edited by Marshall U
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5 hours ago, Marshall U said:

I asked a question (specifically of Sammy). Thank you for your input...can you answer the question? 

 

Under what plausible scenario could Colt (or anyone else for that matter) have been able to enter a (multiple) valid "A" prefix serial number(s) into the NFA registry as transferable, post 1986? How is that possible, if (as you portend) "the A prefix serial number did not come out until the 1990's"?

That's the point. They couldn't. So the lowers were produced after the May 19 1986 cut off. So they are bullshit. 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, damcv62 said:

That's the point. They couldn't. So the lowers were produced after the May 19 1986 cut off. So they are bullshit. 

What's the point? The serial numbers With the "A" prefix are valid. How can that be if that Colt Prefix didn't "come out until the 1990's"? Please elaborate? I'd love to hear some conjectured bullshit story about how a unicorn farted...a fairy sneezed and fluttered her gossamer wings...some scintillating fairy dust fell to earth on the NFA registry and just like MAGIC..."A" prefix serial numbered Colts appeared in the NFA registry and are transferring to individuals! You know...serial numbers that "didn't come out (EXIST) until the 1990's"! Riddle me that!

Sammy stated facts. I don't dispute those facts. What I'm asking is how his facts jive with serial numbers that "didn't exist until the 1990's" ended up as Valid serial numbers in the NFA Registry? Answer the question please. 

Edited by Marshall U
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Buying these guns without proof of provenance is crazy.

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11 hours ago, Marshall U said:

What's the point? The serial numbers With the "A" prefix are valid. How can that be if that Colt Prefix didn't "come out until the 1990's"? Please elaborate? I'd love to hear some conjectured bullshit story about how a unicorn farted...a fairy sneezed and fluttered her gossamer wings...some scintillating fairy dust fell to earth on the NFA registry and just like MAGIC..."A" prefix serial numbered Colts appeared in the NFA registry and are transferring to individuals! You know...serial numbers that "didn't come out (EXIST) until the 1990's"! Riddle me that!

Sammy stated facts. I don't dispute those facts. What I'm asking is how his facts jive with serial numbers that "didn't exist until the 1990's" ended up as Valid serial numbers in the NFA Registry? Answer the question please. 

I'm not even sure what it is you are asking. Either I'm drunk on you are, it's like you are speaking in tounges. The S/N might be a pre 1986 S/N. No one disputes that. But the M4 Enhanced roll mark wasn't introduced until the early 2000's. I don't believe for a second there was a colt employee who pre-May 19th 1986 had a crystal ball and could tell that in 15 years the army would want a undreamed of yet to be named rifle and had one built up. 

The much more likely(and what everyone but you seems to understand) is that at someone point after May 19 1986 someone at colt was able to destroy the original lower, and rebuild it into a new M4 enhanced marked lower with the old lowers sn. Which is why the lowers are bullshit. They are one knock away from an ATF agent coming to collect the lowers. Just because a lower has a "valid" serial number like you state, doesn't mean it was correctly made. The ATF by and large don't know what the actual lowers or firearms look like, or how they are roll marked. That's why the ATF has been requesting a lot more photos from people to verify what the items are actually marked. 

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On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 5:23 PM, SAMMY! said:

... on top of the fact the A prefix serial number didn't come out until the 1990's. Translate, I call bullshit.

SAMMY!

Except for the fact that you don't know this.   The phrase "come out" means nothing when describing a company as dysfunctional as Colt.   Serial numbers also are meaningless since they released guns with essentially random serial numbers in no particular sequence for most of the m16/ar15 run.   Add in that they never actually made receivers and most of the parts for their guns and assembled them randomly, sometimes on a per order request and marked them according to customer specs.   Add in replacement receivers were allowed by atf up until around 2000 and the statistical combinations are near endless.   Company in and out of bankruptcy/ownership for several decades who essentially assembled firerarms but never really produced much?    

Net effect, if it has a tax paid stamp and the serial number hasn't been altered on the gun by someone other than the mfr. back in the day, it's likely legit.   

Any markings can be added to any firearm at any time in any place, except for removing the serial number, though as we know they can be moved methodically.  Photos have largely been requested mostly in cases where there's nearly no description of the firearm or even a model designation, or incorrect designations to be corrected.   For example we have a german gun incoming with no model, listed as british manufacture.   I can roll mark "Xray space gun 2100" on it next week, add it to the description and that's what is....sort of.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, damcv62 said:

I'm not even sure what it is you are asking. Either I'm drunk on you are, it's like you are speaking in tounges. The S/N might be a pre 1986 S/N. No one disputes that. But the M4 Enhanced roll mark wasn't introduced until the early 2000's. I don't believe for a second there was a colt employee who pre-May 19th 1986 had a crystal ball and could tell that in 15 years the army would want a undreamed of yet to be named rifle and had one built up. 

The much more likely(and what everyone but you seems to understand) is that at someone point after May 19 1986 someone at colt was able to destroy the original lower, and rebuild it into a new M4 enhanced marked lower with the old lowers sn. Which is why the lowers are bullshit. They are one knock away from an ATF agent coming to collect the lowers. Just because a lower has a "valid" serial number like you state, doesn't mean it was correctly made. The ATF by and large don't know what the actual lowers or firearms look like, or how they are roll marked. That's why the ATF has been requesting a lot more photos from people to verify what the items are actually marked. 

No...Sammy does clearly dispute that; He said these are not Pre-1986 serial numbers on these 4-position ENHANCED guns...and I agree with him...caveat: according to what we think we know...

I'll say it again...

SAMMY SAID: "...the "A" prefix serial numbers didn't even come out until the 1990's." 

I AM SAYING:

1-The serial numbers on these guns (all of these Colt 4-position guns have "A" prefixes).

2-The serial numbers are VALID according to BATFE and these guns are indeed transferrable. 

***3-PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW SERIAL NUMBERS THAT DIDN'T EXIST UNTIL THE 1990's (WHAT SAMMY SAID) ENDED UP IN THE NFA REGISTRY (WHICH CLOSED TO NEW REGISTRATIONS IN MAY OF 1986)?***

MAGIC??? A TIME MACHINE??? SORCERY???

I'll go ahead and tell you how...

EITHER...

1-THE GUNS WERE INFACT MANUFACTURED BEFORE 1986 AND THEY ARE LEGIT (I DONT BELIEVE THEY WERE BUT I DO BELIEVE THEY ARE LEGIT). 

2-BATFE ALLOWED THESE INTO THE REGISRTY WAAAAY AFTER 1986 (POSSIBLE; I KNOW OF A SPECIFIC INSTANCE WHERE A DEALER KEPT FIVE POST-SAMPLES ON "ACCIDENT" IN THE 1990's FOR NEARLY A DECADE AFTER HE GAVE UP HIS CLASS 3 LICENSE...STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS EXPIRED...AFTER SITTING DOWN AND HASHING IT OUT WITH BATFE THEY DECIDED TO JUST MAKE THEM TRANSFERRABLE). 

3-COLT HAD THESE SERIAL NUMBERED LOWERS ENTERED INTO THE REGISTRY BEFORE 1986 AS A BATCH LOT BUT DID NOT FINISH MACHINING THE RECEIVERS UNTIL THE LATE 1990's-EARLY 2000's. THEY THEN MADE THEM INTO CURRENT MODELS WITH DIFFERENT MARKINGS AND SOME DIFFERENT FEATURES. (KIND OF LIKE VECTOR CHOPPING THE ASS END OFF AND PRESSING A DIFFERENT TRUNION INTO A FULL SIZE UZI RECEIVER, THAT WAS MADE BY GROUP INDUSTRIES PRIOR TO 1986 BUT NEVER FINISHED INTO COMPLETE GUNS...AND CALLING IT A VECTOR MINI UZI ON THE FORM.) 

4-SOMETHING INVOLVING THE GEMTECH RULING WHEREBY COLT (THE OEM MANUFACTURER) DESTROYED EXISTING PRE-1986 GUNS AND REPLACED THEM WITH THESE (I DONT BUY THIS EITHER; DOES NOT EXPLAIN HOW THE "A" PREFIX SERIAL NUMBERS APPEAR...THE NUMBERS WOULD HAVE HAD TO REMAIN THE SAME). 

BOTTOM LINE...THE SERIAL NUMBERS ARE VALID AND THE GUNS ARE TRANSFERRING TO INDIVIDUALS. HOW CAN THIS BE, GIVEN WHAT SAMMY SAID (AND HE IS CORRECT...THE "A" PREFIX NUMBERS DIDN'T EVEN COME OUT UNTIL THE 1990's)? 

BATFE BENT OR BROKE ITS OWN RULES ROUTINELY IN THE PAST OVER MISTAKES IT HAS MADE. WHO KNOWS, BUT THE GUNS ARE LEGIT....THE DETAILS HOWEVER...WELL...THEY ARE SKETCHY? 

 

 

 

Edited by Marshall U
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I tend to agree with Sammy on most things. He's a relatively knowledgeable individual. I look at the enhancements and markings on these receivers and just shake my head. There is no way that I would spend (risk) that amount of money on something as shady as one of those.

The facts are clear on the markings and serial numbers being post 1986. There is no evidence that any of us are privy to that would put all this speculation to rest.

All I'm saying is this. The law on machine gun possession is pretty clear. No machine gun made after May, 19, 1986 can be lawfully possessed by an individual.

What does that mean to me? That I would not consider purchasing "paper" NFA items or "remanufactured" NFA items because in reality they did not physically exist prior to May 19, 1986. While the ATF allowed a few instances of rule bending (violations of the law) there is absolutely no guarantee that they won't decide to enforce the law one day and declare these as non transferable post 1986 machine guns.

The fact that these guns did not physically exist on May 19, 1986 is enough to discourage me from paying any amount of money for them.

Yes, the serial numbers are in the registry and the ATF has approved their transfer. That is absolutely no guarantee when dealing with the ATF. There are multiple instances documented where the ATF declared a device or conversion non NFA and later rescinded that determination making those items post 1986 restricted. The ATF also approved a Form 1 application to make a post 1986 machine gun for a trust. They sent the approved form out with a tax stamp on it. Then they quickly notified the individual that it was invalid.

The ATF allowed SGW for a time to replace receivers with new ones. They abruptly stopped the practice too. Why? Probably something to do with the law stating "made after May 19, 1986." Most people avoid the remanufactured SGW receivers believing that they are "risky" because there is no exception in the law for replacement of pre 1986 machine guns with new ones.

So, the ATF can go by the law when they decide to and declare something illegal when in fact, by the letter of the law, it is illegal. Remember that part about being manufactured "before" May 19, 1986 in order to be transferable?

So, if someone can come up with definitive proof that a Colt Mfg Co M4 Enhanced existed prior to May 19, 1986 I'll buy you a steak dinner with all the trimmings. All you would need would be the original Form 2 registration or the results of a FOIA request. Anyone?

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, MPFiveO said:

I tend to agree with Sammy on most things. He's a relatively knowledgeable individual. I look at the enhancements and markings on these receivers and just shake my head. There is no way that I would spend (risk) that amount of money on something as shady as one of those.

The facts are clear on the markings and serial numbers being post 1986. There is no evidence that any of us are privy to that would put all this speculation to rest.

All I'm saying is this. The law on machine gun possession is pretty clear. No machine gun made after May, 19, 1986 can be lawfully possessed by an individual.

What does that mean to me? That I would not consider purchasing "paper" NFA items or "remanufactured" NFA items because in reality they did not physically exist prior to May 19, 1986. While the ATF allowed a few instances of rule bending (violations of the law) there is absolutely no guarantee that they won't decide to enforce the law one day and declare these as non transferable post 1986 machine guns.

The fact that these guns did not physically exist on May 19, 1986 is enough to discourage me from paying any amount of money for them.

Yes, the serial numbers are in the registry and the ATF has approved their transfer. That is absolutely no guarantee when dealing with the ATF. There are multiple instances documented where the ATF declared a device or conversion non NFA and later rescinded that determination making those items post 1986 restricted. The ATF also approved a Form 1 application to make a post 1986 machine gun for a trust. They sent the approved form out with a tax stamp on it. Then they quickly notified the individual that it was invalid.

The ATF allowed SGW for a time to replace receivers with new ones. They abruptly stopped the practice too. Why? Probably something to do with the law stating "made after May 19, 1986." Most people avoid the remanufactured SGW receivers believing that they are "risky" because there is no exception in the law for replacement of pre 1986 machine guns with new ones.

So, the ATF can go by the law when they decide to and declare something illegal when in fact, by the letter of the law, it is illegal. Remember that part about being manufactured "before" May 19, 1986 in order to be transferable?

So, if someone can come up with definitive proof that a Colt Mfg Co M4 Enhanced existed prior to May 19, 1986 I'll buy you a steak dinner with all the trimmings. All you would need would be the original Form 2 registration or the results of a FOIA request. Anyone?

"The facts are clear on the markings and serial numbers being post 1986. There is no evidence that any of us are privy to that would put all this speculation to rest."

No...the "facts" are not clear. Unless a special allowance was made by BATFE nearly a decade later in the 1990's, these receivers were pre-1986. They may not have been finish machined into their current configuration, but the FACT that those "A" prefix serial numbers are Valid and Transferrable means that (barring a special exception made by BATFE) Those guns are Pre-1986. This isn't like they slapped a transferable MAC serial number on an M240 or something. These serial numbers are specific to Colt and are indeed Valid. 

SAMMY IS WRONG...unless he or anyone else can explain how you magically make serial numbers that SAMMY says didn't exist until the 1990's appear in the registry that was closed to new entries in May of 1986. 

STILL NOBODY ANSWERS MY QUESTION?

STILL NOBODY COMES FORWARD WITH ANY PLAUSIBLE SCENARIO ON HOW THIS IS POSSIBLE? 

ANSWER:

BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ONE. 

YOU ALL THINK YOU KNOW...

THE TRUTH IS YOU ALL (MYSELF INCLUDED) REALLY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. 

LIKE I SAID...VECTOR DID VIRTUALLY THE SAME DAMN THING WITH THE MINI UZI THAT IT APPEARS COLT DID HERE. 

I HEAR YOU ON THE RISK PART THOUGH. IT IS A RISK FOR SURE...ONE THAT YOU ARE EITHER COMFORTABLE WITH OR NOT.

I SURE AS HELL AM NOT GOING TO SIT HERE AND LISTEN TO THE GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT ARGUEMENT UNLESS SOMEBODY CAN PRODUCE SOME HARD EVIDENCE THAT PROVES OTHERWISE.  IN MY SHORT TIME COLLECTING I HAVE SEEN MORE ITEMS THAN I CAN COUNT THAT MAGICALLY ENDED UP IN THAT REGISTRY; ALL OF WHICH SHOULD NOT BE THERE BUT ARE. I'VE ALSO SEEN HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF GUNS WHICH SHOULD BE IN THAT REGISRTY (OR CONFISCATED AS MANY SUGGEST) BUT AREN'T (EXAMPLE: ALL THE SEAR CUT TYPE 3 STEYR IMPORT FN FAL'S, WHICH BY ALL RIGHTS AND DEFINITION ARE UNREGISTERED MACHINEGUNS...OR ALL THE G-SERIES FAL'S FOR THAT MATTER THAT ARE IN LIMBO...TECHNICALLY UNREGISTERED MACHINEGUNS BUT NEITHER GRANTED AMNESTY INTO THE NFA NOR CONFISCATED BY BATFE). 

 

Edited by Marshall U
Elaborate

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Anybody still arguing this in the face of all this evidence (and that in the thread at Uzitlk) either has buyers remorse or is selling one

Im not a lawyer but I paid a PA NFA lawyer to advise me on this very issue. he said dont buy a gun with post 1989 markings unless you can send it to ATF Firearms Tech branch for inspection

If somebody wants to try and convince himself his gun is legit more power to him, but theres no point in trying to convince the rest of us

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On June 4, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Marshall U said:

I ask this question in earnest with no malice or argumentative rhetoric implied...I mean that sincerely, as the reason I redacted my above comments were due to the fact that it appeared this thread was degenerating...

But I must implore you...

 

The address on the weapon says:

Colts MFG CO. INC.

Hartford, CT

The address on the form states;

Colt Firearms

Hartford, CT

If what you say is true ("...on top of the fact the A prefix serial number didn't come out until the 1990's), under what plausible scenario could Colt (or anyone else for that matter) have been able to enter a (multiple) valid "A" prefix serial number(s) into the NFA registry as transferable, post 1986? How is that possible, if (as you portend) "the A prefix serial number did not come out until the 1990's"?

That marking on the receiver did not exist until after the 1989-1990 restructuring, I called Colt and asked them and you can too. Any receiver rolled with that was roll stamped AFTER 1989

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BUT THE SERIAL NUMBER DID...UNLESS BATFE MADE A SPECIAL EXCEPTION...AND THE ROLL STAMPINGS COULD HAVE LEGALLY BEEN DONE AFTER 1989 UNDER MANY SCENARIOS...CLEAR UP UNTIL THE GEMTECH RULING. YOU QUOTED MY QUESTION. I BELIEVE I'VE ASKED IT 3 TIMES NOW. DID YOU EVEN BOTHER TO READ IT? I AM AWARE THAT THE RECEIVERS WERE FINISH MACHINED (OR ENTIRELY MACHINED AFTER 1986)!!! I ACCEPT THAT AS FACT AND DO NOT DISPUTE THAT!!! 

DID YOU BOTHER TO READ JOHNSONLMG41'S POST ABOVE EITHER? THERE ARE NUMEROUS PLAUSIBLE AND LEGAL WAYS THAT THESE EXIST...GO BACK UP THE THREAD AND READ HIS POST.  

I'LL ASK YOU DIRECTLY AND EVEYONE ELSE FOR THE 4th TIME...

 
Under what plausible scenario could Colt (or anyone else for that matter) have been able to enter a (multiple) valid "A" prefix serial number(s) into the NFA registry as transferable, post 1986? How is that possible, if (as Sammy portends) "the A prefix serial number did not come out until the 1990's"?
 
I QUIT...HEADACHE!!! 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I dont know anything about "A" prefixes and nobody has provided a link about them

Unless you can provide data suggesting that some receivers are made and roll stamped AND registered with ONLY  serial numbers and then at some LATER date run through the roll stamp AGAIN to have those other markings put on, I'd say its a remote and unlikely scenario  The videos of roll stamp machines Ive watched show the whole shebang happening at once - one fitting of the receiver in the jig

And it I were ATF investigating this, Id just go to Colt and start asking around. Im sure somebody will squeal and throw Mr. Colt under the bus now that hes in a nursing home somewhere being fed through a straw

Edited by secondofangle

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Posted (edited)

These transferable modernized variants that people are saying shouldn't exist, do exist, and they insta-sell for crazy amounts. I'm assuming that the smart money knows what its doing, or these super-prime investors wouldn't be snatching these up as fast as they had appeared. I've spoken to multiple sources, and there's a backstory here as to how these recent examples exist and who they belonged to. If one had the supporting paper trail and provenance, along with the ATF's numerous blessings (stamped approvals), such would give me the confidence needed to be an owner.

One of the ways these have come to exist as explained in 2014: "I'm aware of very small number of original transferable Colt M16A1s that went back to Colt, sometime in the early 90s, and were "rebuilt" into modern style receivers using the exact same serial numbers but with all the A2 upgrades and modern black anodizing. This is one of the models Robb J. is talking about above. Yes, this process isn't "ATF legal" anymore and these Colts always stir the pot when they come up for sale with guys screaming about their legality, but somehow these made it through the NFA process back then and they have continued to change hands over the years. You'll see one every now and then up on Sturm/Subguns or at KCR." -source: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?151687-Pre-1986-Transferable-Colt-M16A2-(RO901)-Eye-Candy-and-Question&p=1905538#post1905538

And more recently (the thread this post is in is quite informative): "IIRC, there was a short amount of time in which Colt would take your registered M16 and "rebuild" (destroy and make a new one with the same serial#) it as an M4. It would thus be a registered M4 machine gun. The ATF has since stopped this practice, but there are more than a few transferable Colt M4s due to this." -source: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?178331-Has-anyone-ever-seen-a-transferable-NFATR-registered-Colt-M16-rollmarked&p=2239152#post2239152

Edited by Neo

sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12thdelivered to agent July 14th,
check cleared July 18th, & stamp ETA: Feb/March 2017.

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9 hours ago, Neo said:

These transferable modernized variants that people are saying shouldn't exist, do exist, and they insta-sell for crazy amounts. I'm assuming that the smart money knows what its doing, or these super-prime investors wouldn't be snatching these up as fast as they had appeared. I've spoken to multiple sources, and there's a backstory here as to how these recent examples exist and who they belonged to. If one had the supporting paper trail and provenance, along with the ATF's numerous blessings (stamped approvals), such would give me the confidence needed to be an owner.

One of the ways these have come to exist as explained in 2014: "I'm aware of very small number of original transferable Colt M16A1s that went back to Colt, sometime in the early 90s, and were "rebuilt" into modern style receivers using the exact same serial numbers but with all the A2 upgrades and modern black anodizing. This is one of the models Robb J. is talking about above. Yes, this process isn't "ATF legal" anymore and these Colts always stir the pot when they come up for sale with guys screaming about their legality, but somehow these made it through the NFA process back then and they have continued to change hands over the years. You'll see one every now and then up on Sturm/Subguns or at KCR." -source: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?151687-Pre-1986-Transferable-Colt-M16A2-(RO901)-Eye-Candy-and-Question&p=1905538#post1905538

And more recently (the thread this post is in is quite informative): "IIRC, there was a short amount of time in which Colt would take your registered M16 and "rebuild" (destroy and make a new one with the same serial#) it as an M4. It would thus be a registered M4 machine gun. The ATF has since stopped this practice, but there are more than a few transferable Colt M4s due to this." -source: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?178331-Has-anyone-ever-seen-a-transferable-NFATR-registered-Colt-M16-rollmarked&p=2239152#post2239152

But your down fall is if you truly believe the ATF's numerous "blessings" means a hill of beans. That means nothing. 110% bullshit. The ATF has, many times in the past, gone back and confiscated weapons they previously approved. Just because they "approve" something doesn't in any way, shape, or form mean it's legal. They can and will seize guns they deem to be fake or not properly registered. This has happened many times in the past, and you really need to read up on this stuff if you don't believe it. There is many examples of the ATF finding out about something being done after the fact, and they will seize the item in question. You may try to fight it, but this is the ATF. I did hear of at least one case that the ATF allowed the current owner to keep the item, but it was deemed a post sample, and had to be turned in if the owner ever wanted to sell it. 

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3 hours ago, damcv62 said:

But your down fall is if you truly believe the ATF's numerous "blessings" means a hill of beans. That means nothing. 110% bullshit. The ATF has, many times in the past, gone back and confiscated weapons they previously approved. Just because they "approve" something doesn't in any way, shape, or form mean it's legal. They can and will seize guns they deem to be fake or not properly registered. This has happened many times in the past, and you really need to read up on this stuff if you don't believe it. There is many examples of the ATF finding out about something being done after the fact, and they will seize the item in question. You may try to fight it, but this is the ATF. I did hear of at least one case that the ATF allowed the current owner to keep the item, but it was deemed a post sample, and had to be turned in if the owner ever wanted to sell it. 

Most times this is in the form of making transferables into post samples. They at least let the owners keep them. Like all the Stemple/RIA M60's.

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3 hours ago, damcv62 said:

But your down fall is if you truly believe the ATF's numerous "blessings" means a hill of beans. That means nothing. 110% bullshit. The ATF has, many times in the past, gone back and confiscated weapons they previously approved. Just because they "approve" something doesn't in any way, shape, or form mean it's legal. They can and will seize guns they deem to be fake or not properly registered. This has happened many times in the past, and you really need to read up on this stuff if you don't believe it. There is many examples of the ATF finding out about something being done after the fact, and they will seize the item in question. You may try to fight it, but this is the ATF. I did hear of at least one case that the ATF allowed the current owner to keep the item, but it was deemed a post sample, and had to be turned in if the owner ever wanted to sell it. 

 

Amen to that.

The ATF says lots & lots of things that simply don't make much sense, logically or legally.

Presumably their only staff lawyers are the people who couldn't get real jobs at law firms.

 

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If anyone wants some documentation of keeping reclassified posties. Here is your proof, I know all about them as I just bought two previous Stemple M60's and they transferred to me as posties with no letter.

 

Hollis-v-Holder-Page-71-Stemple-M60.png

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2 hours ago, eMGunslinger said:

If anyone wants some documentation of keeping reclassified posties. Here is your proof, I know all about them as I just bought two previous Stemple M60's and they transferred to me as posties with no letter.

 

Hollis-v-Holder-Page-71-Stemple-M60.png

There you go NEO. This is what I keep saying. In the flesh and blood. So just because the ATF "gave their blessing" doesn't mean the guns aren't in question, and at some point might be looked into, and at that time you may or may not end up with a post sample out of your $50,000 "M4 enhanced" colt that is now a post sample, and even if in the best case and you get to keep the gun, it's now worth $1500 as a post sample colt. 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for the opinions, and I'm convinced that you guys have my best interest in mind, but I really want this gun and my offer was accepted by the owner for the exact gun in my thread title, a transferable Colt M4 Commando Enhanced. For my piece of mind, the approved form 3 does perfectly match the manufacturer's name & location to the letter on the rifle, the barrel length of 11.5" (Commando), and the overall length of 30.59" (Commando), as well as serials of course. Caliber on form says .223 and rifle says 5.56, but even Colt calls their current M4 Commando caliber: 5.56x45 NATO (.223 Rem.).  I assume this is because it can use either caliber ammo: http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Law-Enforcement/Products/Colt-M4-Commando#97715-technical-specifications

I wasn't aware of this Stemple RIA M-60 case, but I'm told that Stemple used serial numbers from other pre-1986 transferable weapons and simply put his manufacturer info on guns he didn't build, after 1986, which is not the same situation with these Colts. Regardless, having a keeper beats having it confiscated, and being able to keep a post sample permanently as an unlicensed civilian is still a win in my book. And when I die, these heirlooms go to my heirs, since everything is going on a pre-41F trust.

Back to how these can exist, no one doubt's that these serials were registered before the '86 ban, and we've already established that the manufacturer could destroy the original to have a new model built, prior to the Gemtech ruling (circa 2006?). Then there's the situation where the manufacturer registered serials before the ban, engraved serials onto a hunk of metal, but never finished the build. I spoke to Tim LaFrance of LaFrance Specialties on the phone earlier this year and he told me that he had 3 such machine gun serials registered, but hadn't got around to finishing those builds yet, and said he may not even get around to finishing them during his lifetime. Who knows how many other registered serials with unfinished builds remain out there, and perhaps some unfinished builds still remain(ed) with Colt. Because of these various permitted loopholes, we could very well see a transferable 40W phased plasma pulse rifle, or whatever future equivalent, pop up on subguns or sturm in the year 2035. I bet that will raise some eyebrows then too, but rest assured, we can count on the ATF to approve it's next transfer stamp, for they're not going to say no to additional tax revenues.

The Colt M4 Commando Enhanced that I'm buying will have to go thru 2 additional transfers, a form 3 to my local SOT, then a form 4 from my local dealer to me. It already went thru 2 transfers before me, so that's > a year of cumulative research to determine if this gun is a transferable or a post sample. In the most unlikely event that they change their minds and want to classify it as a post sample before the next two transfers are approved, then it wasn't meant to be. If years after these 4 approvals they decide it's a keeper but no longer transferable, that's something I'd be content with, more so than not having this grail. And there will ALWAYS be a risk of gun confiscations, mandatory buy-backs, and future irrational/illogical decisions by big brother. Next on the menu is a reban on assault rifles; they'll probably end up joining the NFA registry to be regulated (more tax revenues).

Its not just limited to guns though, big brother can take most anything they want, from whomever, whenever, "Last Friday evening, President Obama signed an Executive Order giving him the power to implement martial law in the US. The National Defense Resources Preparedness Executive Order will give Obama the power to seize the countries resources in a time of crisis or peace. This includes resources ranging from livestock to sources of energy and water."
http://www.infowars.com/alex-jones-obamas-executive-order-facilitates-martial-law/

At least with these registered, regulated, and taxed transferables (up to two taxes per sale), they have a strong motive to keep them in circulation. If anything, I'd expect an increase in the tax stamp, a stamp price that hasn't changed since 1934 ($200.00 in 1934 had about the same buying power as $3,583.71 in 2016). More on this: https://firemountainoutdoors.wordpress.com/2014/01/01/the-200-atf-tax-stamp-racket-its-stupid-but-its-cheap-and-now-may-be-your-time-to-buy-one/

To the mods, I'm requesting that we leave this thread open as a source of any additional information/opinions. It's extremely informative to have this open discussion on this modernized forum in place of the temporary post-it-note board of the past. Decades from now, enthusiasts should be able to reference this thread to help further their knowledge on such obscure transferables.

Edited by Neo

sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12thdelivered to agent July 14th,
check cleared July 18th, & stamp ETA: Feb/March 2017.

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7 hours ago, Neo said:

Because of these various permitted loopholes, we could very well see a transferable 40W plasma rifle pop up on subguns or sturm in the year 2035. I bet that will raise some eyebrows then too, but rest assured, we can count on the ATF to approve it's next transfer stamp, for they're not going to say no to additional tax revenues.

Lol. I just shake my head at your naivety. Keep telling yourself this. If all they cared about was tax revenue why would they collect the Stemple guns? Come on man, I don't believe you are that thick headed. O.o

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1 hour ago, damcv62 said:

Lol. I just shake my head at your naivety. Keep telling yourself this. If all they cared about was tax revenue why would they collect the Stemple guns? Come on man, I don't believe you are that thick headed. O.o

Yes, their best interest is to confiscate all MG from us and the tax revenue comes as a bonus.

 

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, Neo said:

For my piece of mind, the approved form 3 does perfectly match the manufacturer's name & location to the letter on the rifle, the barrel length of 11.5" (Commando), and the overall length of 30.59" (Commando), as well as serials of course. Caliber on form says .223 and rifle says 5.56, but even Colt calls their current M4 Commando caliber: 5.56x45 NATO (.223 Rem.).

Riddle me this then. You have a copy of the form 3. Does it say M4 enhanced on it? How about even M4? Because if the form says that then I'll eat my words. But I'd put good money on the F3 saying M16a2. So on your magical M4 enhanced is it also marked M16a2? Because if it doesn't your gun does in fact NOT match the form. You are one call away from the ATF taking that gun. Have you not seen the huge increase in people posting stories of the ATF asking for photos of markings on guns to be submitted to them so they can be sure the registry is correct? 

So what does your form say? Right on your F3. 3.d? M16a2 or M4? Because if it doesn't match the gun you are in the exact spot I said you would be in. 

Edited by damcv62

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, Neo said:

To the mods, I'm requesting that we leave this thread open as a source of any additional information/opinions. It's extremely informative to have this open discussion on this modernized forum in place of the temporary post-it-note board of the past. Decades from now, enthusiasts should be able to reference this thread to help further their knowledge on such obscure transferables.

 

Hope you all take this the right way, but perhaps we are all BEST served for this thread to get moved to one of the discussion forums. It long ago deviated from a normal WTB post. There are lots of other users of the Classified section to consider here, and a vast majority of them probably are a lot less interested in this discussion than the folks posting and replying. I know I am bumping it myself with this post, but I wanted to pose the idea to the Mods to move it to one of the discussion forums.

Edited by Tall Pine

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Posted (edited)

Technically, M4 Enhanced would be the WRONG model for that was neither the model that I was after nor bought.  This gun started as a Commando and has remained a Commando. Alas, whatever we think is correct has absolutely no bearing, only what the ATF deems correct is what matters. So lets explore that...

Here's a fellow with a Colt model LE6933 'Commando', it's rollmaked M4LE on the lower, and yet his approved and stamped form 4 says AR-15 for the model.  What what?!  Using your logic, this patsy is just 1 call away from the inevitable swat team seizure...

Another fine example would be the 3 transferable LaFrance HK trigger packs that I had recently purchased. They are all the exact same frames by the same manufacturer with same style engravings/markings (logo and serials) without any discernible differentiation beyond the serials. No hosts/guns included with these 3 transfers, just F/A trigger packs.
LaFrance-packs-trilogy.jpg

Yet on the 3 corresponding approved and stamped forms, one is designated as model MP5L, 2nd as G33L, and the 3rd as G3L.  So which is the correct model?

*Answer: All of them, in the eyes of the ATF.

Edited by Neo

sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12thdelivered to agent July 14th,
check cleared July 18th, & stamp ETA: Feb/March 2017.

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Since Neo has found one, this has been moved to the discussion boards, so any info contained can be utilized by others for their NFA research.

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Neo bought fully informed and says he doesnt care if he cant sell in the future for any price. (He is mistaken that it will go on his trust prior to 41F but Im not sure thats relevant anyway.)

More power to you brother. If I had had that attitude I would have had an M4 CARBINE and an M16A2 COMMANDO marked gun here already. But I couldnt stomach he risk so I bailed. 

If you can stomach it, thats a fine piece to have, I admit.  Good for you for getting what u wanted. 

I note that Targetmaster is now sold out and besides a few at Spiwak, the ONLY A2 currently available is Reuben's $35,000 commando. Will be interesting to see where the market goes from here!

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This post was moved to the NFA Discussion forum, because a WTB deal has been made, and the discussion is taking up valuable space on the NFA Board.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com


National Rifle Association
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
Ohio Gun Collectors Association
Thompson Collectors Association
Carbine Club
Garand Collectors Association
International Ammunition Association
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
Eagle Scout, and Member of NESA

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Posted (edited)

I wouldn’t say I don’t care about ever selling at any price. I'm in $70k for this unfired transferable Colt M4 Commando Enhanced, but I'm willing to take the risk, just as there is a degree of risk with owning any of these Federally regulated weapons, but I'd obviously rather not be singled out and thrown under the bus by the ATF.  We know that there were many other transferable Colt variants of controversially ambiguous origin (i.e., ambiguous from the public's uninformed perspective) that surfaced in recent months, and they all sold ultra-fast at record prices.  So it's not as if I’m taking some giant leap of faith alone. For now, it appears that I was last to jump, for I'm not seeing any other Enhanced/Commando/XM4/M4A1/M4 class rarities out there, but my delay was due to the strict specificity of the transferable that I sought.  I thought to myself, if I could have ANY combination Colt machine gun, it would be a transferable Colt M4 Commando Enhanced, hence my WTB ad, and I feel fortunate to have had this opportunity to find exactly that and in perfect unfired condition. Get this, I honestly had absolutely no internet proof or even so much as a 2nd hand whisper of this particular combination having existed as transferable, but I tossed a WTB line out there just in case!  Regarding that autoweapons link in my OP, when I asked if they had any Colt M4 Commando Enhanced transferables in stock, I was told, “This was a post 86 dealer sample. We sold it a long time ago and been off our site for years.”

Yes, it will be interesting to watch the market from here over the coming decades.

Too late for gun trust? The seller of this unfired transferable Colt M4 Commando Enhanced was PayPal'd in paid in full this morning by a single transfer and said he'd be submitting the form 3 today. Yet you say it’s too late for form 3 purchases to go my trust.  Are we sure about that?  I still have items on my wish list, but if it’s too late, there's no reason for me to continue this buying frenzy. My local SOT is willing to file the form 4s from him to me before the form 3s are approved, and I'm waiting until as late as July 11th before mailing off a batch of 25+ form 4s along with the $5k stamp tax payment. I've been deliberately postponing any form 4 submissions so that I can buy more time with the ATF by contributing to their workload in one large batch. Considering that the ATF will experience a record flood of submissions from us during this period, we should also experience record wait times, and it could be many months before the ATF begins processing my packet of submissions. By then, all of the form 3s would have cleared. That's my plan at least. Am I mistaken?

Then there’s this Silencer Shop's 41F Guarantee:
“If you purchase a in-stock silencer by July 6th and give us a copy of your trust and information by July 8th then we guarantee that you will make the July 13th deadline. We are so confidant in this that we will give you $100 if it isn't to the ATF by the deadline.”
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/silencer-shop/236475-silencer-shop-41f-guarantee.html

About Ruben Mendiola's excellent/used A2 Commando for $35k, isn't that just an 11.5" upper swapped in? It doesn't have the Commando rollmark.  I suppose it depends on the approved form, whether it says 11.5" or the typical 20" barrel length that most M16s are registered as, but it seems that many, including myself, also value the correct rollmarks at a premium in addition to the matching paper.
http://dealernfa.com/shop/colt-m16a2-commando-excellent-8002504/

Edited by Neo

sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12thdelivered to agent July 14th,
check cleared July 18th, & stamp ETA: Feb/March 2017.

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38 minutes ago, Neo said:

 I'm in $70k for this unfired transferable Colt M4 Commando Enhanced...

I hope thats a typo, or covers more than just this one!l lol

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Includes box, manual, shipping, & same day form 3 submission (hey, same day submission is paramount this close to 41F and sure beats the 100+ day wait that I endured for my 1st machine gun purchase, which I chronicled in this 1st post). I was told it was held near and dear and wasn't for sale, but was offered a M16A2 or XM4 instead. I persisted, owner said it wasn't for sale unless it was for stupid money. After a full week of contemplation by the seller, my initial offer was accepted. I'm just glad that I didn't insult anyone. With the RDIAS (no host) for sale by a fellow sturm member based in TN, I offered him $30k initially (only because the highest known asking price that I was aware of was $30k, and that steel RDIAS sold for $24k w/ $1.5k host as revealed here, but that was 2 months ago), then I offered $35k (to surpass Frank's Guns past GB listing of $34k that I was informed of), then $40k just because. I was told that I wasn't even ballpark and it would be a waste of time speaking with me about it further, yet he goes on to explain how disappointed he is and how I'm wasting his time by replying to me with 4 paragraphs along with a copy of his form 4, just to rub it in I'm assuming, but still no counter offer.  Basically this sturm based RDIAS owner that approached me wasn't a seller, he was just pulling out his museum piece for show and tease.


sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12thdelivered to agent July 14th,
check cleared July 18th, & stamp ETA: Feb/March 2017.

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Its not my business so feel free to tell me so, but are you saying you did pay $70k for this M4 Enhanced? I couldnt tell from above if that was for the M4 and a DIAS or just the M4. I thought TargetMaster had these for $40k just a few weeks ago.

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Posted (edited)

Come on now, surely you're just being facetious.

  1. I'm still on the hunt for a steel RDIAS, as denoted in my signature.
  2. TargetMaster wanted $50k for ALL of his 4-position Enhanced listings.
  3. TargetMaster never listed a M4 Commando Enhanced, and as far as we are aware, no one ever has.
  4. I didn't pay $70k for a M4 Enhanced, rather I said:
22 hours ago, Neo said:

I'm in $70k for this unfired transferable Colt M4 Commando Enhanced

Anyways, I called Colt for detailed information on the serial # of this gun, and their records return a full-auto M4 Commando Enhanced with 4 position selector model R0938 M4/M16A4 Commando HBAR 11.5" HBAR built 1998.  According to Colt's firearm logs, this would be the highest model #, the absolute latest and greatest Commando that they had ever manufactured.  In chronological order:
R0609 XM177E1 Commando (US Army) 11.5" barrel
R0619 XM177E1 Export Carbine 11.5" barrel
R0629 XM177E2 SMG US Army 11.5" barrel
R0639 XM177E2 Export Model 11.5" barrel
R0640 M16 SMG 11.5" barrel
R0733 M16A2 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0734A M16A2 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0734 M16A2 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0735 M16A2 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0735B M16A2 Commando - Brazil 11.5 A1 barrel
R0737 M16A2 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0738 Enhanced Carbine 11.5" A1 barrel
R0780 M16A3 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0933 M16A4 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0933CQB M4 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0935G M16A4 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
R0935 M16A4 Commando 11.5" A1 barrel
*R0938 M4/M16A4 Commando HBAR 11.5" HBAR

This wasn't a simple switch of preban M16A2 serials being engraved onto a post sample, this serial is indeed registered with the ATF as a transferable machine gun and it was used to build this very gun, somehow.  Perhaps its exactly as TargetMaster, among others, has been saying all along, "This is 100% original Colt factory gun.  The serial # was registered prior to making this gun so that is how it is transferable with the modern receiver."  

Regardless, the ATF will take the next 3+ months to verify all of this on their end, again, before approving the next form 3 transfer to my local SOT, and I hope they take plenty of close-up pictures for their records. Not that they would need pictures though, since any ATF agent with 30 seconds of time investiture would verify the full details/specs/make/model/year of this machine gun with Colt's records via the serial #.  The ATF will only approve a transfer on what they deem to be a legitimately transferable machine gun, for that's what they're spending all those months doing.  Seriously, if an ATF agent allocated just 30 seconds out of the upcoming months, he could once again verify exactly what this machine gun is thru Colt's website.  Though I would expect the ATF to have far more efficient resources for researching firearm serials than a normal Joe citizen such as myself has at his disposal (copying and pasting serials into a manufacturer's website and clicking submit sure can be tedious).

And remember, the ATF is well aware of the all of those other transferable but modernized Colts that have been and will be transferring, as their serials should match Colt's records the same as mine has, for these all stem from the same collection.  Is there any logical reason why the ATF would repeatedly review these machine guns via numerous and consecutive form submissions, and always approve their transfers... by mistake?  Even a 1st day ATF agent should catch what this machine gun is right away.  I know this gun already had two transfers over the last year, and it has another two to go, so no way could the ATF not run this serial. Ergo, they must know many times over exactly what this machine gun is, why it's classified as transferable, and why they continue approving its transfer.

Edited by Neo

sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12thdelivered to agent July 14th,
check cleared July 18th, & stamp ETA: Feb/March 2017.

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Not being facetious at all, I guess Im just slow. I cant keep up with all these unique rollmarks you're hunting/acquiring, or the exact ones TargetMaster had. I just remembered he had a few go for $40k. 

I just was floored that you paid $70k for an m16 variant, whatever rollmark it has, be it a one off or not. Sounds like you did. Congrats on getting what you wanted. Thats never a bad thing. Have a good one.

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I see, no problem. Hope you find that Gemtech MK-9K from someone within Florida, but you still have time if you find one on a form 3 to go on your trust, and you have a local SOT willing to file your form 4 prematurely. I had a tough time finding the MK-9K nationwide though, they are sold out everywhere and Gemtech only produces them in tiny trickles. I finally was referred to a dealer who had two new units in stock (made this year with black packaging) on form 3s and bought them both. Thanks for your lead on the Colt LE6933 factory SBR rollmarked M4LE, that's to be my shooter, and the gun in this thread to be a safe queen. I ended up having multiple sources to choose from for this exact SBR, and Autoweapons.com was actually the lowest price.


sigpic35918_2.gif PROJECT 41F filed July 12thdelivered to agent July 14th,
check cleared July 18th, & stamp ETA: Feb/March 2017.

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Posted (edited)

Cool, thanks. I'll find the mk-9k eventually. Starting to be okay with 41f. Its not like I'm gonna completely stop in July for rest of my days over some fingerprints.lol. I've heard great things about the mk-9k, I assume you like yours a lot?

By way it was Tom O that gave you the sbr link to AW. I gave you links to the unwanted m4 carbine roll marked ones.

 

Edited by Tall Pine

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