ATF emails FFLs about FRTs being machine guns.

[Ryo]

Probably a lot of you FFL's just got this open letter.

 

Quote

March 24, 2022 Open Letter to All Federal Firearms Licensees

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) recently examined devices commonly known as “forced reset triggers” (FRTs) and has determined that some of them are “firearms” and “machineguns” as defined in the National Firearms Act (NFA), and “machineguns” as defined in the Gun Control Act (GCA). These particular FRTs are being marketed as replacement triggers for AR-type firearms. Unlike traditional triggers and binary triggers (sometimes referred to generally as “FRTs”), the subject FRTs do not require shooters to pull and then subsequently release the trigger to fire a second shot. Instead, these FRTs utilize the firing cycle to eliminate the need for the shooter to release the trigger before a second shot is fired. By contrast, some after-market triggers have similar components but also incorporate a disconnector or similar feature to ensure that the trigger must be released before a second shot may be fired and may not be machineguns. Both the NFA and GCA regulate machineguns. “Machinegun” is defined under 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b) and 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(23) as— Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. (Emphasis added.) ATF’s examination found that some FRT devices allow a firearm to automatically expel more than one shot with a single, continuous pull of the trigger. For this reason, ATF has concluded that FRTs that function in this way are a combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and hence, ATF has classified these devices as a “machinegun” as defined by the NFA and GCA. Accordingly, ATF’s position is that any FRT that allows a firearm to automatically expel more than one shot with a single, continuous pull of the trigger is a “machinegun”, and is accordingly subject to the GCA prohibitions regarding the possession, transfer, and transport of machineguns under 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(o) and 922(a)(4). They are also subject to registration, transfer, taxation, and possession restrictions under the NFA. See 26 U.S.C. §§ 5841, 5861; 27 CFR 479.101. Under 26 U.S.C. § 5871, any person who violates or fails to comply with the provisions of the NFA may be fined up to $10,000 per violation and is subject to imprisonment for a term of up to ten years. Further, pursuant to 26 U.S.C. § 5872, any machinegun possessed or transferred in violation of the NFA is subject to seizure and forfeiture. Under 18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(2), any person who violates § 922(o) may be sent to prison for up to 10 years and fined up to $250,000 per person or $500,000 per organization. Based on ATF’s determination that the FRTs that function as described above are “machineguns” under the NFA and GCA, ATF intends to take appropriate remedial action with respect to sellers and possessors of these devices. Current possessors of these devices are encouraged to contact ATF for further guidance on how they may divest possession. If you are uncertain whether the device you possess is a machinegun as defined by the GCA and NFA, please contact your local ATF Field Office. You may consult the local ATF Office’s webpage for office contact information. Alphonso Hughes Assistant Director Enforcement Programs and Services George Lauder Assistant Director Field Operations

 

[Got Uzi]

Just finished reading it and I’m not shocked by this at all. It was only a matter of time. Try to skirt the law and it’ll bite you in the ass. Congrats to the company for screwing over how many people on said product. 

I have a franklin armory binary and sell them to customers. When asked about these FRY systems I tell them “stay away” and explain why. 

[taylorwso]

57 minutes ago, Got Uzi said:

Just finished reading it and I’m not shocked by this at all. It was only a matter of time. Try to skirt the law and it’ll bite you in the ass. Congrats to the company for screwing over how many people on said product. 

I have a franklin armory binary and sell them to customers. When asked about these FRY systems I tell them “stay away” and explain why. 

well you sure gave up easy

You should be pissed atf is re-interpreting the law, a power they don't have.

I'll continue to support rare breed and their lawsuits against the atf.

 

btw the atf now requires a "release" of the trigger vs the law which states "single function", hope they lose in court.

Edited March 24, 2022 by taylorwso

[Ryo]

I hope FRT wins out but I really highly doubt it since a shoe string can be classified as a MG when attached to a S/A firearm.

[Got Uzi]

Can’t give up on something I never liked or trusted to begin with. Those FRT scare the hell out of me. Plus I’ve had to deal with idiots who’ve torn up a range with them. Deal with enough idiots and you get soured to certain things or legal work arounds. 

[StrangeRanger]

Howerever you stand on FRTs, the good news is that ATF just declared that binaries are legal. 

They just broke out the champagne at Franklin.

Edited March 24, 2022 by StrangeRanger
grammer

[HHollow]

1 hour ago, StrangeRanger said:

Howerever you stand on FRTs, the good news is that ATF just declared that binaries are legal. 

They just broke out the champagne at Franklin.

And it is just a matter of time before the AFT changes its mind on binaries.

[StrangeRanger]

I'm not so sure that they can reclassify the binary.

The way the law is written it states a "single function of the trigger." Pull and release are two separate functions and the fact that the binary can be disconnected/reset between pull and release proves that they are separate functions in more than just a semantic sense.

ATF is basing their classification of the FRT on the fact that you can apply constant pressure on the trigger as it resets and it will run in quasi-FA mode.  Whether that constant pressure is a "single function" or a rapid series of functions is something that will be decided in court and may even get to the point of a neurological analysis of what is happening in the shooters index finger during that constant pressure.  The thing that is going to hurt the legal case for the FRT is that there is no true semi mode. It goes from safe to rock-and-roll and you simply cannot get off the trigger quickly enough to reliably get singles.  This is a big part of the basis of Got Uzi's disdain for FRTs and on that score I agree with him

[HHollow]

42 minutes ago, StrangeRanger said:

I'm not so sure that they can reclassify the binary.....

The AFT can do what it wants when protected by the execute branch.  For example, the AFT can decide that there is no sporting purpose in a binary trigger.  Or the binary trigger must be re-designed to enhance firearms safety. 

[Ryo]

Doesn't take much to make the binary triggers to go away.. they just have to mention single press of a trigger allowing only a single round to fire.. and all states will be like Washington state where binaries are not allowed.

[StrangeRanger]

But  the law doesn't say "single press." It says "single function." 

[taylorwso]

 

3 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

Can’t give up on something I never liked or trusted to begin with. Those FRT scare the hell out of me. Plus I’ve had to deal with idiots who’ve torn up a range with them. Deal with enough idiots and you get soured to certain things or legal work arounds. 

you should be soured on the idiots, not a intimate object

 

[johnsonlmg41]

For those guys thinking the binary will be fine, ask yourself how you pull without releasing and that the return spring stores the energy to fire the second round...essentially the way the way the akins accelerator did.

The fact is applying constant pressure to the FRT does not allow it to function, that's not how it works. It still requires pulling the trigger for each round and letting pressure off the trigger stops firing, unlike a binary where removing your finger allows the spring, utilizing stored energy, to take over and fire a second shot without your finger "on the trigger", thus the second shot fires on it's own like an akins or AWSIM cradle where springs store the energy to fire an additional round.   It's just a matter of time on those.    The selector is merely a selector between single shots and 2 round burst.

How do you "tear up" a range?  Is there a dirt shortage?

Edited March 25, 2022 by johnsonlmg41

[Got Uzi]

The target stands, a shooting bench and they even got one of the poles on the cover on the range cover. 

[johnsonlmg41]

I think those are the same guys that were at the range before FRT's were available?   The guys who put holes in the roof and other damage.  They players have not changed, just the bats.

Target stands...well they are disposable based on every deer hunter sight in shoot I've seen?   I sort of like those guys.  I go to the range after deer season and there's brand new targets with maybe a hole or two in the corners, and it saves me money and a few hundred yards of walking on the first round!  I can sit in one spot and shoot on several target stands since I'm the only one there.  Ok, well a time or two I've shot on the guys target near me,  after watching for a little while.  They magically think they went from not hitting the target or frame to a 2" group near center after a box of shells.  Sometimes I offer to help, sometimes I just let them walk away all proud.  Sometimes they pull the target and take it home LOL

[Thumpy]

There very existence disgusts me. 

[Shortbarrelpete]

I agree with Thumpy, the existence of the atf disgust me! 

[Buddy H]

.

[Buddy H]

[United Surplus Arms]

1 hour ago, Buddy H said:

this store has everything a person could ever need....

[Chef]

2 hours ago, shiklg said:

this store has everything a person could ever need....

Only if that's a girl behind the counter.

[Thumpy]

On 3/25/2022 at 7:38 PM, johnsonlmg41 said:

I well a time or two I've shot on the guys target near me,  after watching for a little while.  They magically think they went from not hitting the target or frame to a 2" group near center after a box of shells. 

This made me chuckle a little to hard. Thank you sir! 

[Mark2]

The “80 Percent” Receivers are next Boyz

[StrangeRanger]

29 minutes ago, Mark2 said:

The “80 Percent” Receivers are next Boyz

...as well they should be

[Ryo]

1 hour ago, Mark2 said:

The “80 Percent” Receivers are next Boyz

Washington has already started the first step. They require any receiver or frame that is not serialized to be shipped to a FFL who will engrave their FFL # and a serial # to the frame/receiver. 

So pissed at this send to our new magazine ban. 

[duza9999]

51 minutes ago, StrangeRanger said:

...as well they should be

…why?

 

[SGT Fish]

53 minutes ago, StrangeRanger said:

...as well they should be

Should be what? 

[SGT Fish]

On 3/24/2022 at 5:57 PM, StrangeRanger said:

I'm not so sure that they can reclassify the binary.

The way the law is written it states a "single function of the trigger." Pull and release are two separate functions and the fact that the binary can be disconnected/reset between pull and release proves that they are separate functions in more than just a semantic sense.

ATF is basing their classification of the FRT on the fact that you can apply constant pressure on the trigger as it resets and it will run in quasi-FA mode.  Whether that constant pressure is a "single function" or a rapid series of functions is something that will be decided in court and may even get to the point of a neurological analysis of what is happening in the shooters index finger during that constant pressure.  The thing that is going to hurt the legal case for the FRT is that there is no true semi mode. It goes from safe to rock-and-roll and you simply cannot get off the trigger quickly enough to reliably get singles.  This is a big part of the basis of Got Uzi's disdain for FRTs and on that score I agree with him

Cough-bumpstocks-cough-cough

 

The atf doesn't follow the law. If they did, then I could build a 30mm cannon and not have to register it as as DD. Because the law says I can make it for sporting purpose

[StrangeRanger]

7 hours ago, SGT Fish said:

Cough-bumpstocks-cough-cough

 

The atf doesn't follow the law. If they did, then I could build a 30mm cannon and not have to register it as as DD. Because the law says I can make it for sporting purpose

IIRC ATF acting within the purview of the law approved bump stocks in 2010.  The ban came in 2018 when Trump acting through Sessions ordered ATF to ban them.  That action by Trump established a legal precedent for the Executive Branch to overrule the expressed will of Congress as written in the National firearms Act.

[johnsonlmg41]

1 hour ago, StrangeRanger said:

IIRC ATF acting within the purview of the law approved bump stocks in 2010.  The ban came in 2018 when Trump acting through Sessions ordered ATF to ban them.  That action by Trump established a legal precedent for the Executive Branch to overrule the expressed will of Congress as written in the National firearms Act.

That's not true.  aft has no purview over firearm parts.  They thought they did, but they don't, which is why they no longer accept "parts" submissions, only complete firearms.  The only possible way to attempt to ban them was via executive order, which I believe Trump knew would be overturned, but it immediately served the purpose of quieting down the anti-gun  folks.....some of which we have right here and other gun sites.  These might be the same people that wear masks in between bites of food or drink, because they were told "that's the rules"......Simon says.  What shocks me most is the high number of invertebrates that I never realized existed?

At the end of the day the 2nd amendment is the law and that law applies to restrict government, not us.  I think people generally forget that.   Much of the stuff you see in the atf books are generally "rules", which may or may not be codified by actual law.  Unfortunately these arbitrary rules have to be challenged in court to get rid of them.  If your state legislature banned FRT's, you're stuck.  AFAIK US congress has yet to ban FRT's, however aft has seemingly arbitrarily (without an actual arbitrary hearing or legal commentary period of proposed rule change) decided to sort of make up a rule against the opinions of their very own experts. 

Ever seen anyone prosecuted for "not wearing a mask"?   Because it's not a law....at least that I am aware of....yet. 

Tests for people that aren't sick?  Background checks for law abiding people?  Yes the same thing, neither one is necessary, nor effective at stopping anything, yet the invertebrates dutifully line up?  See a pattern yet?  And the people that would implement both...they are communists, because they are exempt themselves from these rules they set forth.

Edited March 26, 2022 by johnsonlmg41

[SGT Fish]

@StrangeRanger I don't think you know what you are saying. And the bumpstock ban has already been struck down in a federal court, just not the Supreme Court yet. The ATF can't just rule something a MG that does not meet the legal definition of such. 

You really need your freedom compass calibrated. The fact you said that 80% lowers should be next on the chopping block tells me that you don't really believe in our rights, and are not a friend to this hobby, the people on this site, or the gun owners of America. 

I will politely ask you to explain your position if I am misunderstanding. But you sure know how to stand out in a crowd, in a bad way

[StrangeRanger]

I didn't bring up bump stocks, you did. I merely pointed out that ATF originally ruled that they did not functionally transform a rifle into a machine gun and were therefore legal.  The ruling that at least temporarily outlawed them came from Trump.  That ill-advised act on his part set a dangerous precedent for the Executive overruling Congress in many areas, not just gun control.  The President is not supposed to make law by executive fiat, he is supposed to implement the will of Congress not overrule it.  I do not like the bump-stock ban any more than you do even though I have less than zero use for them.

As for 80% receivers, I have no problem with them as long as whoever completes them engraves them with his manufacturer’s information and serializes them.  Lacking that they are simply high-end zip guns and they have been shown to figure disproportionately in criminal activity. 

Let me turn the question around, if you are making a firearm solely for your use and have no intention whatsoever of selling it why do you have a problem with engraving your information on it?  No one else is ever likely to notice it or much care if they do.

On the other hand if you are manufacturing it with the intent of selling it, can you not see that there is a compelling public interest in identifying the manufacturer so that its history can be traced if lost, stolen or used in a crime?  It does not in any way infringe on your rights to own or even to manufacture a gun, it simply requires that you identify yourself as the manufacturer.

[johnsonlmg41]

I don't engrave or serial # my fists, my hammers, or my knives.  These represent a large percentage of tools used in homicides.  If they were all engraved what difference in homicide rates do you think you would see?  None. 

Firearms tracing rarely leads to any usable information other than perhaps the last traceable owner which is very rarely the actual perpetrator, thus they are after the fact and generally useless in prevention. 

Have license plates and vin #'s on cars deterred car thieves?  Not in the areas where criminals are allowed to roam free, car thefts are higher than ever before.

The public interest should be in arresting what are mostly habitual criminals and incarcerating them.  That's what immediately stops and deters criminals.  The focus is currently on inanimate tools and not on animated criminals which is why we have the current mess all the way up to the bribery ridden compromised crook at the top that has economically sanctioned all of us at the store and at the gas pump.  Again, habitual criminals allowed on the streets have now cost tens of thousands of lives without threat of prosecution.

I fail to see how serial numbering a firearm in a conspicuous place which is frequently mutilated by criminals is any help to society?

I could put my own RFID chips in the gun and ID it that way?  Or any number of ways to ID and recover my stuff should it need to be recovered?

When crimes with firearms happen, cops never go looking for a gun, they always look generally for specific people.  Why do you suppose they don't look for a specifically numbered firearm instead? LOL

An 80% receiver is a fantasy term that is completely meaningless and without definition, please don't get sucked in by fake news.

[StrangeRanger]

36 minutes ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

An 80% receiver is a fantasy term that is completely meaningless and without definition, please don't get sucked in by fake news.

 

 

So the unfinished, unserialized AR lowers I see at gun shows, the ones that only need a couple of holes drilled and just happen to be available with a drill jig, don't really exist?  I must have been hallucinating

FWIW the sellers invariably call them "80% receivers"

Edited March 27, 2022 by StrangeRanger

[taylorwso]

8 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

Let me turn the question around, if you are making a firearm solely for your use and have no intention whatsoever of selling it why do you have a problem with engraving your information on it?  No one else is ever likely to notice it or much care if they do.

let me guess, you're a dick head cop. That's the same shit they always try, the everlasting illogical argument.

"If your not guilty, then why doesn't it matter"

It's not about what it its "noticed", or your feelings, it's the fact that the  law doesn't require it, therefore I don't have to do anything to appease your feelings. 

If you suck my dick and no one sees it, then your not gay.  Its no big deal right?

Can you swallow that argument?

[duza9999]

7 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

 

 

So the unfinished, unserialized AR lowers I see at gun shows, the ones that only need a couple of holes drilled and just happen to be available with a drill jig, don't really exist?  I must have been hallucinating

FWIW the sellers invariably call them "80% receivers"

Good on those sellers, it’s called malicious compliance and it’s a great way of undermining gun control. 
 

I honestly can’t believe what I’m seeing from a few in this thread, thankfully the next generation is a lot more hardline 2A.
 

 

[Got Uzi]

You should also take into account the area in which some people live and why said opinions have been formed. Where in at, here in Ohio, while it’s not the ganglands of of LA, we have our own issues. Know how many of these 80% pieces of shit show up in crimes? Quite a few...oh and most the time they have a good old arm brace on them. They are used by people who aren’t allowed to own a gun due to criminal records.

So you can call me “anti gun” all you want, but when one of your family is damn near killed on a meth lab raid by one of these home built  2A freedom warriors protecting his drug stash with a weapon that he shouldn’t have been able to get in the first place, yeah I become salty! I’m close with my regions law enforcement and many of them are family to me. We talk about things and this stuff comes up quite a bit. So you can say you are defending your 2A rights, but you should also respect the options of others as there might be a legit reason said opinions are had. 

I’ll send you $20 so you can go get your Dick sucked or can buy an 80% lower. Your choice....

[johnsonlmg41]

48 minutes ago, Got Uzi said:

You should also take into account the area in which some people live and why said opinions have been formed. Where in at, here in Ohio, while it’s not the ganglands of of LA, we have our own issues. Know how many of these 80% pieces of shit show up in crimes? Quite a few...oh and most the time they have a good old arm brace on them. They are used by people who aren’t allowed to own a gun due to criminal records.

So you can call me “anti gun” all you want, but when one of your family is damn near killed on a meth lab raid by one of these home built  2A freedom warriors protecting his drug stash with a weapon that he shouldn’t have been able to get in the first place, yeah I become salty! I’m close with my regions law enforcement and many of them are family to me. We talk about things and this stuff comes up quite a bit. So you can say you are defending your 2A rights, but you should also respect the options of others as there might be a legit reason said opinions are had. 

I’ll send you $20 so you can go get your Dick sucked or can buy an 80% lower. Your choice....

Yep, that's anit-gun.  It's America, you can choose to live in a craphole and by your own admission these people are prohibited persons, so the fact that they aren't already incarcerated for felon in possession, that is the the first problem.  There is no need for raids, these guys can be picked off one by one as they move about the community.  The cops in your area know who the bad actors are, but generally management or politicians make the poor decisions to let them roam free or order a drug raid while 8 armed people are grouped up in one place.  Those are bad choices.  You do know there are guys that enjoy the adrenaline rush of busting down doors and running in?  My job is also adventurous and less safe statistically than law enforcement, but it's my passion and personal choice, just like theirs.

An 80% lower to a guy with no cordless drill or tools is a monumental daylong project.   A block of billet for a guy with a 5 axis machine in his garage is 10 minutes, the 80% lower....well it takes longer to fixture than to cut.  The definition lies in the ability of the maker, not the object.  Most AR-15's can be converted to full auto in less than 5 minutes? What do you propose to do about that?  Ban all of them because the possibility exists for some people to violate the law?  Or are you going to just arrest the people  that do it?

Laws apply to people's actions, and should not apply to inanimate objects.  Most guys here have stacks of guns. The made up term "gun violence" implies guns are violent or those that have them are.  How many guys here get scared when the get near a gun safe?   When you guys used to go to the creek and there were scary guns nearly every inch, did you feel unsafe?  Did you know a lot of those guns changed hands without background checks?  And the murder rate for KCR over 35 years, or the murder rate on any given day of opening day deer season......yep ZERO? 

Can you cite any evidence that background checks or lack of them (for those that didn't bother)  have any effect on the guns that were sold legally or illegally on the hundreds of thousands of people at those gatherings?  And if you ran traces on all of those guns, how many do you think you'd find wound up at crime scenes, excluding the ones that may have been stolen from homes or bus. of attendees?

Edited March 27, 2022 by johnsonlmg41

[MontanaRenegade86]

@johnsonlmg41 You nailed it, man.

 

[Thumpy]

7 hours ago, duza9999 said:

. 
 

I honestly can’t believe what I’m seeing from a few in this thread, thankfully the next generation is a lot more hardline 2A.
 

 

I’m 25 an I agree. I own mgs an my life goal is for my mg collection to become worthless because we repeal these bs laws. 

[SGT Fish]

5 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

You should also take into account the area in which some people live and why said opinions have been formed. Where in at, here in Ohio, while it’s not the ganglands of of LA, we have our own issues. Know how many of these 80% pieces of shit show up in crimes? Quite a few...oh and most the time they have a good old arm brace on them. They are used by people who aren’t allowed to own a gun due to criminal records.

So you can call me “anti gun” all you want, but when one of your family is damn near killed on a meth lab raid by one of these home built  2A freedom warriors protecting his drug stash with a weapon that he shouldn’t have been able to get in the first place, yeah I become salty! I’m close with my regions law enforcement and many of them are family to me. We talk about things and this stuff comes up quite a bit. So you can say you are defending your 2A rights, but you should also respect the options of others as there might be a legit reason said opinions are had. 

I’ll send you $20 so you can go get your Dick sucked or can buy an 80% lower. Your choice....

Your mad at inanimate objects because people tried to kill your family member? Would you have felt better if they sprayed gasoline all over them and lit them on fire? Or hit them in the head with a baseball bat? Or ran over them with an unregistered car? Or tossed some pipe bombs outside? Or maybe it would have made you feel better if those guns they used had serial numbers on them?

 

I respect your right to an opinion. But I have the right to see your opinion as illogical and emotionally driven. 

[SGT Fish]

22 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

 

As for 80% receivers, I have no problem with them as long as whoever completes them engraves them with his manufacturer’s information and serializes them.  Lacking that they are simply high-end zip guns and they have been shown to figure disproportionately in criminal activity. 

 

Let me turn the question around, if you are making a firearm solely for your use and have no intention whatsoever of selling it why do you have a problem with engraving your information on it?  No one else is ever likely to notice it or much care if they do.

 

Hahahahaha!  What do you think a serial number is going to do? Do you seriously expect that to stop one single crime? I guess you listen to too much "scary ghost gun" propaganda to have clear thoughts on this 

[MontanaRenegade86]

50 minutes ago, SGT Fish said:

 

Hahahahaha!  What do you think a serial number is going to do? Do you seriously expect that to stop one single crime? I guess you listen to too much "scary ghost gun" propaganda to have clear thoughts on this 

It's all feel-good bullshit. People have to have something to blame for all their life's ills. 

Rage at the system, rage at the players, but don't rage at an inanimate object that simply did what it was willed to do. 

[duza9999]

2 hours ago, Thumpy said:

I’m 25 an I agree. I own mgs an my life goal is for my mg collection to become worthless because we repeal these bs laws. 

^
I’m 22 and a 08 FFL/SOT

When I was 20, before I could legally purchase a handgun from a dealer, I had a approved form 1 for a 60mm mortar.

I’d gladly see my two MG’s get reduced 90% to see Hughes repealed.

The money is nice, but I’m a collector at heart. I’d rather lose 14k overnight and be able to buy cheap MG’s all day long.

[duza9999]

1 hour ago, SGT Fish said:

 

Hahahahaha!  What do you think a serial number is going to do? Do you seriously expect that to stop one single crime? I guess you listen to too much "scary ghost gun" propaganda to have clear thoughts on this 

I think the more important thing is even if they did stop/were useful in criminal investigations, that shouldn’t change anything.

 

Freedom has a cost. Restricting guns would reduce gun crime, firearms are uniquely lethal and anytime you restrict/ban something you will see a noticeable reduction in proliferation. However, there is such a thing as acceptable losses.

And without question I firmly believe that 16-20 thousand firearm homicides per year are not at a level where it makes restricting the fundamental rights that tens of millions of Americans actively cherish acceptable.

@Got Uzi

Edited March 27, 2022 by duza9999

[Got Uzi]

I’ll repsect your options on this and I’d hope you’d respect mine. I have reasons for my stance on things and maybe it’s a regional thing that has me thinking this way.

I love that I’m considered an anti gun person because I see things differently than the extreme right of the 2A.

Do I think ATF over reaches? Yes.

Do I think the NFA system needs revamped? Yes

Do I think the laws on the books need to be enforced and no new ones? Yes

Do I agree with all these “work arounds” on the laws:bump stocks, FRT’s, Arm Braces, and the “fuel filter kit” suppressors? No and I’ll leave it like this-skirting the laws and flirting with that line isn’t going to anyone any good and it’ll end up causing more harm than good. 

[SGT Fish]

2 hours ago, duza9999 said:

^
I’m 22 and a 08 FFL/SOT

When I was 20, before I could legally purchase a handgun from a dealer, I had a approved form 1 for a 60mm mortar.

I’d gladly see my two MG’s get reduced 90% to see Hughes repealed.

The money is nice, but I’m a collector at heart. I’d rather lose 14k overnight and be able to buy cheap MG’s all day long.

I'm 32 and started out much like you did. Been in the NFA world since I wad 16 and would help people find rare guns and parts

[Thumpy]

5 hours ago, duza9999 said:

^
I’m 22 and a 08 FFL/SOT

When I was 20, before I could legally purchase a handgun from a dealer, I had a approved form 1 for a 60mm mortar.

I’d gladly see my two MG’s get reduced 90% to see Hughes repealed.

The money is nice, but I’m a collector at heart. I’d rather lose 14k overnight and be able to buy cheap MG’s all day long.

We are the generation of change brother.  Nice to see another younger guy in the hobby.

[SBD]

On 3/27/2022 at 4:50 PM, Got Uzi said:

I’ll repsect your options on this and I’d hope you’d respect mine. I have reasons for my stance on things and maybe it’s a regional thing that has me thinking this way.

I love that I’m considered an anti gun person because I see things differently than the extreme right of the 2A.

Do I think ATF over reaches? Yes.

Do I think the NFA system needs revamped? Yes

Do I think the laws on the books need to be enforced and no new ones? Yes

Do I agree with all these “work arounds” on the laws:bump stocks, FRT’s, Arm Braces, and the “fuel filter kit” suppressors? No and I’ll leave it like this-skirting the laws and flirting with that line isn’t going to anyone any good and it’ll end up causing more harm than good. 

Skirting the law? The second amendment states “shall not be infringed”  the only amendment with that strong of wording. (I don’t want to hear that only applies to government; we are not even suppose to have a standing military so that argument is bunk) Now Brandens favorite saying is “does this mean you can own a cannon?”YES YES IT DOES. The baddest military equipment at the time was a warship with multiple “cannons” in the hands of private citizens known as privateers.  Who helped fight to make this place FREE. Its people like you who give up your rights then think they can say whatever they want; but Im here to tell you without the second there is no first.

[Kaboom63021]

My take on it is this. Basically ATF is trying to redefine written law with their interpretation…”single pull of the trigger” vs written law “single function of the trigger”. FRT’s can be overcome with a hard pull and holding of the trigger….the gun will not fire another round until the trigger is released and squeezed again. A “machinegun” will continue to fire until pressure is let off and trigger released, or magazine is depleted. A “sweet spot” of pressure must be maintained for the trigger to function as designed….and you can definitely tell that the trigger finger IS moving back and forth….squeezing and releasing with trigger resting each time….hence the term “FORCED reset”. I’ve shot one at a range months ago…some guy had one and let me try it. They work, very well, but it is a learning curve with maintaining the right pressure on the trigger. The fact the Rare Breed has 4 (I believe) former ATF personnel including former head of tech branch ALL stating that the trigger is NOT a machine gun, coupled with the fact that ATF tried to suppress evidence from rare breed shows that their case is weak at best. I’d love to see ATF have their asses handed to them in court….total bullshit trying to write law themselves, that’s what Congress is for!