Joe Hardin Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 Hi My name is Joe Hardin and I am new to the form and I have a lot to learn about machine guns. I am 65 and will have to rely on the vast knowledge of the people here. I am ranch raised and my dad gave me a Marlin golden mounty lever 22 when I was 12 and I have been a gun nut for life. I was a big collector of pre 64 Winchester model 70 rifles . I sold off a bunch of them and now I want a machine gun. I have a Barrett 82a1 and a Mc Millan Tac 50 and love them both. The Tac 50 is the most amazing thing I have ever shot and I live in an area it is no problem to comfortably shoot a mile. I am in love with the classics like m1917 water cooled brownings. My wife passed a few years ago so it would reside in the living room with me. I would love a Colt 1928 civilian as they are so beautiful and I have a couple of colt 1911s from that era that are the same blueing. The other Gun I am interested in is an M2HB and it could sit on top of the china cabinet. Lol Just kidding. I am starting to understand the laws and and some of the history and the terminology. I do not get all of the side plate , one cut , parts kit , C&R and a lot of it. I am not looking for the lowest priced gun . I am looking for the highest quality gun I can afford at a reasonable fair price. Be gentle I am a senior citizen. I live in N.E. Arizona Again any help would be greatly appreciated and thank for letting me join the forum. Joe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twoodworth Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 Sounds like you might want a belt fed from what you are saying. A 1919a4 might be your best bet, its a great gun and parts are widely available at reasonable prices still. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftiv Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 You must have a very strong china cabinet for a M2HB. I think you need to decide what you want to do, shoot them or look/collect them. Sideplate guns have had the original REGISTERED part of the gun removed and replaced with a new registered sideplate. Original sideplates were removed and destroyed because they were not registered before 1986 and became illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 (edited) quick lingo tutorial: Side plate gun: Several guns that are constructed in a "box" type configuration with 4 sides(maxim, browning, FN and others), atf has generally determined the plate on the right side of the gun which often carries the mfr info and charging handle, to be the firearm receiver itself. As pointed out, if the gun (plate) was not registered before may of 1986 it is now contraband. Parts kits (guns that had the plate removed and and effectively destroyed) are legal and there were manufacturers that produced plates only before the May 86' cutoff but were not able to finish entire guns in some cases, but did get the plates done. As long as the plate was registered by then it was considered a registered firearm at the time. While some guns were complete, many were not and assembled at a later date. One cut: one cut somewhere on the receiver either by torch or band saw. These are much easier for guys that have manufacturing licenses that allow them to currently assemble live machine guns from parts kits. Current importation of parts kits from foreign sources need significant torch cutting in generally at least 3 locations to make them legally importable according to atf and state dept. made up rules. The less cutting, the easier it is to reassemble the guns, thus those "kits" are more desirable for those builders. C+R. These are guns that are on the atf C+R list or proven to be at least 50 years old. The upside to these is you buy and receive interstate if you have a current C+R license that amounts to $10 a year. No going through a normal FFL dealer, paying their fees, waiting times, etc. are all bypassed by being shipped or handed over directly to you. If you decide you want a curio and relic 20mm anti tank rifle located in FL, you or the current owner do the NFA transfer paperwork and you can have it shipped direct to your doorstep. Reasonable price: unfortunately based on the May 1986 ban, that is no longer an option. There's lots more, but these are some basics. HTH (Hope That Helps) The lingo is very confusing if you're just getting started and still sometimes for me and I've been in it for a while. Edited March 22, 2022 by johnsonlmg41 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Iannamico Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 Any Class three firearm you may consider as an individual must be transferable, only FFL/SOT dealers can buy pre May or post May dealer samples. Side plate guns and "tube" guns are not C&R eligible There are scammers out there, suggest a reputable dealer to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Hardin Posted March 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 Thanks all, for taking the time to help me. I am starting to comprehend this lingo better. A little about me might help as I think gftiv might have hit on a very big point. I am in the steel fab buss and contract in the power plant industry. I am just your basic illiterate country boy but I do a lot of design engineering for them and my stuff usually goes in better than their engineers. Back to gftiv asked is what I want to do with them. I am very interested in the evolution and history of these guns. I have a love for finding things and making them run flawlessly. I just put a 427 ford side oiler in a 1947 ford pickup and have built harleys and brought back to life a 1946 Indian. Rambling on Sorry I do not see myself as a major go out and shoot all the time but I plan on totally understanding the mechanics of any thing I own and making it run like a sewing machine. I will shoot some just like i do my .50 cal. rifles. I short I guess I would be a collector that shoots some. Again Thanks every one for taking your time to help me. I am extremely interested in the Vickers and have been studying the mechanics. I love the browning M 1917 also . Damn they are beautiful !!!!!!! Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylorwso Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 39 minutes ago, Joe Hardin said: I am very interested in the evolution and history of these guns. I have a love for finding things and making them run flawlessly. . I am extremely interested in the Vickers and have been studying the mechanics. I love the browning M 1917 also .Damn they are beautiful !!!!!!! if you want to learn how they work/history , go to https://www.1919a4.com/ and look at their built tutorials. They are quiet simple. only other advice, FIND A GOOD NFA DEALER! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twoodworth Posted March 23, 2022 Report Share Posted March 23, 2022 Sounds like you want nice display piece for looks and a shooter. Get a nice vickers or 1917 i think that will make you happy. Unless your a serious collector a side plate gun will save you some money. Be patient and find one that comes with accessories if available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattnh Posted March 23, 2022 Report Share Posted March 23, 2022 (edited) Welcome Joe! Well you have come to the right place for MGs! There are lots of helpful & knowledgeable people here. FWIW, given where you are located, you might want to visit the Big Sandy in October (you just missed the spring-22 shoot): https://bigsandyshoot.com/events/ Couple videos below for you if you to enjoy if hadn't seen them already (based on your interests above): - - Matt Vickers Animation: M2HB Animation: 1917 Animation: Edited March 23, 2022 by mattnh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Hardin Posted March 23, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2022 Matt Thanks for the videos . They are great. I have watched a ton of videos but had not found these. I have been so busy I have not really looked at ammo prices in a while. You might say there is a little inflation there. Figured the price to reload and that is crazy also if you can find components. I am not discouraged just hope there are some reasonable avenues. 7.62x51 might be the best at this time???? Thoughts please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Hardin Posted March 23, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2022 Again those videos are great. What happened to american ingenuity . Make something that is relatively simple and works forever. I now see why recoil spring tensions have to be set right. Are extractors wearing out a problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattnh Posted March 23, 2022 Report Share Posted March 23, 2022 3 hours ago, Joe Hardin said: I have been so busy I have not really looked at ammo prices in a while. You might say there is a little inflation there. Figured the price to reload and that is crazy also if you can find components. I am not discouraged just hope there are some reasonable avenues. 7.62x51 might be the best at this time???? Thoughts please. Hi Joe, Yeah, ammo is up quite a bit since early 2020. Reloading components (esp primers and powder) are also difficult to obtain at reasonable prices. 1919s and 1917s can both run 7.62x51 & that is likely your best bet at this time if you need to purchase ammo. If you have a place to shoot M2HB on your property, that is what I would get... Put it on a vehicle mount and drive it to your range! 8-) Re: 1919/1917 extractors - yes, those are prob the weak point of the design and they do break & you'll want a few spares. -- Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumpy Posted March 23, 2022 Report Share Posted March 23, 2022 Honestly man are you sure you want a beltfed for your first mg? Lot of work lot of things to drag out to shoot. Vs a subgun or rifle just grab it out the gun safe an go. 1917s can be really picky some times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Hardin Posted March 23, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2022 Thumpy Thanks for your concern and totally get where you are coming from. I have scars ar15s fals Barrett 82a1 down to 1873 and 1886 winchesters. I have I full fab shop and a blacksmith shop and have worked with my hands for 40 years. Half the journey for me is making one run right and learning how to do it and if I can,t I should not be allowed to own one anyway. I absolutely mean no disrespect , especially since I don,t own a full auto. Again I appreciate your concerns and advice. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylorwso Posted March 23, 2022 Report Share Posted March 23, 2022 6 hours ago, Joe Hardin said: 7.62x51 might be the best at this time???? Thoughts please. terrible time for any ammo, but really terrible for 7.62. I always recommend a 556 belt gun over a 7.62 because you can actually afford to shoot vs look at it. Also the 7.62 surplus is all but gone, it will never be the 80s/90s again. Reloading for the 7.62 is harder because it shares more components with other calibers. Also reloading for a beltfed gets old quick, especially if you only have a single stage press Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhouston8 Posted March 23, 2022 Report Share Posted March 23, 2022 Joe, Welcome. Here are some random general thoughts on it. I own everything I mention below but even after 20 yrs of this I'm small taters and am no expert compared to the old guards here. 1. Determine if you are primarily a Collector (gun sits in man cave ), a shooter ( gun taken out to range and shot a lot), or Investor (meaning you very well could sell the gun in a few yrs and making a profit is a key concern of yours). Your answer to this will greatly help you in your choices. 2. Main types of full auto... Submachine guns (like Uzi and HK MP5), "assault "rifles ( AK47, M16) and the Beltfeds. 3. I could never rec to a new entrant to jump straight into a beltfed...and 100% not a water cooled beltfed. Start easy is what I mean. 4. Try to actually get your hands on various mgs ...seeing, shooting, talking to owners before buying. There are a LOT of issues at play that you might not otherwise realize as you shop for your first machine gun.... especially concerning maintenance pain in the butt and expense and expense to feed the gun. MG owners are generally a friendly lot and are glad to help you and let you shoot their guns if you are seriously interested in them. You are in AZ. Look up Big Sandy mg shoot. Tons of AZ mg owners and shooters. 5. Here's my standard rec for a 1st mg ...not knowing much about you or your budget or ultimate desires ( question 1.) submachine gun : get an Uzi to start with. Move up to MP5 if it's in your budget. rifle: get a converted AR15. If its in your budget AND you are primarily a shooter then get a registered DIAS. Otherwise, get a M16 registered receiver. beltfed: There is no better 1st beltfed than a 1919a4. Anyone who says otherwise has forgotten what it was like when they first got into machine guns. Water cooled, M60s, and HK 21s, M2HB, etc are MUCH more involved and make poor 1st beltfeds to own. so...flesh out some of that and we can help push you along. warning: mg acquisition is a sickness and addiction. I'd be glad to speak to you on the phone if you like and no I'm not a dealer or a person trying to sell you anything. Houston Hardin (ironic, huh?) You can private message (PM. ... sending a direct message from your Sturm account to mine ) me and we can swap phone #s etc if you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhouston8 Posted March 23, 2022 Report Share Posted March 23, 2022 Oh yeah....some general prices ( general guys....plz dont nit pick it) cheapest mg - sten ...prob $7,000 Ar15- M16 : $19,000 - $35,000 AK47 : $30,000 AUG : $27,000 1919a4: $19,000 M2HB : $35,000 M60: $60,000 Uzi : $17,000 Thompsons...not my "area" : $18,000 - $45,000 Hk MP5 : $40,000 General prices only.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhouston8 Posted March 23, 2022 Report Share Posted March 23, 2022 oh and MACs...although you dont strike me at first glance as being a MAC guy : $9,000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaRenegade86 Posted March 23, 2022 Report Share Posted March 23, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, rhouston8 said: warning: mg acquisition is a sickness and addiction. Ain't that the truth. A guy won't just stop with one. ..... @Joe Hardin, welcome to the exciting world of full auto. Best of luck in your search for a registered machinegun. On an unrelated note, I see you list Holbrook, AZ as your area of operations. Small world. My mother's family lived there in the late 60's and early 70's before heading up to Montana. -KristopherH Edited March 23, 2022 by MontanaRenegade86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaRenegade86 Posted March 23, 2022 Report Share Posted March 23, 2022 58 minutes ago, rhouston8 said: oh and MACs...although you dont strike me at first glance as being a MAC guy : $9,000 There is also the M2 Carbine. $9k - $15k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted March 24, 2022 Report Share Posted March 24, 2022 My first belt fed was an MG34? Then I think an MG42? The 1919 was waaaay down the list and never gets shot. Then there's the water cooled guns...have a bunch, never get shot either, too much of a time commitment? Air cooled belt fed guns with non-disintegrating links are the best! I'd buy 2 stens before I'd spend the money on another Uzi or a UC-9 (Uzi incognito)? Reisings. I will say the M16 is worthy, but two are beltfed and the other is an LMG. Lots of options depending on your tastes. I tend to like pre-1960 stuff that is meaty, metallic, wood, and historic vs. plastic and tinny (except the MP44 or MG42) Surplus .308 is for sale everywhere with more being surplused daily in countries that will have to rotate their stock at some point? Probably time to schedule some shoots to watch what works and what doesn't and do some rentals to find your niche? We didn't have any shoots so I just started buying whatever I could and learning the hard way. So far it seems to be working out? I decided I liked them all but Jap guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Hardin Posted March 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2022 LOL I can,t quit laughing. Started out buying whatever and learning the hard way. So far it seems to be working out. Is that like having no plan is been a pretty good plan. That could be the story of my life but it didn,t always work out. I want to to thank every one for teaching me. I got a long way to go but I am scratching the surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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