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Sear Gun Transfer - Take Host Home


howdy

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My FNC finally arrived at my dealer.  It's great, very happy with it.  However, I planned to take the upper home with me while the sear awaits the form 4 transfer to me, but my dealer would not allow me to take it with me, stating that they must keep the entire gun with them as they received it until the form 4 clears.

Has anyone ran into this issue with a dealer?

The only thing registered under the NFA is the sear, so I should be able to take the entire rest of the gun home with me, just doing a 4473, correct?  And even if I just wanted to take non-receiver parts home, say the stock and handguard, I should simply be able to take them with me no paperwork at all I imagine.

I explained this to them but they still would not allow me to take any of it with me.  How would one go about convincing a dealer that they're wrong on this and I should be free to take non-NFA components home regardless of form 4 status?  Appreciate any advice.

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4 hours ago, JM in La. said:

Use a different dealer in the future!

Yep - Their license, their rules...

Also not uncommon to be unwilling to send guns out for work with a pending F4.

Believe it or not, many (most) FFL/SOTs are not very familiar with MGs and they don't want to take any risks...

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1 hour ago, mattnh said:

Also not uncommon to be unwilling to send guns out for work with a pending F4.

Believe it or not, many (most) FFL/SOTs are not very familiar with MGs and they don't want to take any risks...

It has noting to do with familiarity, its all risk.

Why would a dealer take the risk with a 10k-40k device to send it out under their watch? If it gets lost they are on the hook. They tie up insurance and a bunch of other asspain for a customer paying maybe 100 bucks for the transfer.

There is no one in their right mind taking the risk. It's just stupid business practice.

I try not to keep anything but the serialized part, but at the same time I've given parts of a gun/suppressor to a client, then they say they never got them. I've had some dickheads complain they did not get stickers.

For a dealers there is no benefit to try to appease the client. Most clients are a pain in the dick for the small fees to secured thousands of dollars of merch.

Edited by taylorwso
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6 hours ago, howdy said:

I explained this to them but they still would not allow me to take any of it with me.  How would one go about convincing a dealer that they're wrong on this and I should be free to take non-NFA components home regardless of form 4 status?  Appreciate any advice.

You should have worked this out beforehand. They are NOT wrong, they don't have to transfer anything to you if they don't want.  Demanding a dealer do something for you because you paid a small fee, will get you a 2 year form 4.

You want to convince them, tell them you will pay 100 bucks for the parts transfer if you need them so bad.

They probably don't want to do it because it just asspain with no benefit to them.

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As noted, this is stuff you work out beforhand, not after or during a transfer.  It could be worse. 

My dad bought a high end 10/22, goes over does the paperwork with this "dealer", the guy calls it in and gets delayed.  This dealer says he will not transfer a gun to anyone who gets delayed.  I then call this assclown and try to work out a solution, but he's not interested in any real solutions.  I have a buddy with an FFL that lives 10 minutes from him and I offer up him picking the gun up.  He comes back with "I won't personally hand over a gun to another dealer".....everything must be shipped USPS, so my dad ends up waiting 2 more days until the gun is shipped 8 miles and pays the shipping bill.  Now this guy is an idiot, and I as much as told him so, but he's entitled to be stupid, but I also told him he needs to be clear about it to customers (if he has any left).    I chewed my dad out for not asking me how to get this done. 

Splitting up NFA items is not common.  A lot can happen between the time a transfer starts and ends and keeping track of what went where when is something I would not do.  I did have one guy beg me to shoot his stuff, so he knew it worked before the long wait began.  Hard to goback after a year and complain to the seller?

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12 hours ago, taylorwso said:

You should have worked this out beforehand. They are NOT wrong, they don't have to transfer anything to you if they don't want.  Demanding a dealer do something for you because you paid a small fee, will get you a 2 year form 4.

You want to convince them, tell them you will pay 100 bucks for the parts transfer if you need them so bad.

They probably don't want to do it because it just asspain with no benefit to them.

I would have worked it out beforehand if I had any idea there are dealers that would not let you take a title 1 host home on a 4473, as the standard routine is for title 1 firearms.

Interested to hear more on how an upset dealer can make a form 4 take 2 years.

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13 hours ago, taylorwso said:

It has noting to do with familiarity, its all risk.

Why would a dealer take the risk with a 10k-40k device to send it out under their watch? If it gets lost they are on the hook. They tie up insurance and a bunch of other asspain for a customer paying maybe 100 bucks for the transfer.

There is no one in their right mind taking the risk. It's just stupid business practice.

I try not to keep anything but the serialized part, but at the same time I've given parts of a gun/suppressor to a client, then they say they never got them. I've had some dickheads complain they did not get stickers.

For a dealers there is no benefit to try to appease the client. Most clients are a pain in the dick for the small fees to secured thousands of dollars of merch.

I think this is very true.

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55 minutes ago, howdy said:

I would have worked it out beforehand if I had any idea there are dealers that would not let you take a title 1 host home on a 4473, as the standard routine is for title 1 firearms.

Interested to hear more on how an upset dealer can make a form 4 take 2 years.

Without knowing how the paperwork came through it might not be as simple as you are saying. I've had more than one expert NFA customer before.

Want to slow down a form 4, not send it in for a few months when they said they did, send it with a wrong number, forget to sign it, oh forget to send it in for a couple months each time.  Each mistake takes 2-4 months to return. 

They don't HAVE to do anything for you, and I don't know why customers have this expectation.  There is no law that says I must transfer anything too you. It basically become a civil matter because legally they can have possession of the item and you can't.

I've become more jaded as I have a few customers try and tell me how to do things. I  have pertinent parts of the NFA section of the USC printed out and posted on a wall and just point when I get questioned.  They usually read a little get pissed and walk away. I will try and help as much as I can but when someone demands something of me I dont respond well.

 

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46 minutes ago, taylorwso said:

Without knowing how the paperwork came through it might not be as simple as you are saying. I've had more than one expert NFA customer before.

Want to slow down a form 4, not send it in for a few months when they said they did, send it with a wrong number, forget to sign it, oh forget to send it in for a couple months each time.  Each mistake takes 2-4 months to return. 

They don't HAVE to do anything for you, and I don't know why customers have this expectation.  There is no law that says I must transfer anything too you. It basically become a civil matter because legally they can have possession of the item and you can't.

I've become more jaded as I have a few customers try and tell me how to do things. I  have pertinent parts of the NFA section of the USC printed out and posted on a wall and just point when I get questioned.  They usually read a little get pissed and walk away. I will try and help as much as I can but when someone demands something of me I dont respond well.

 

I do have a copy of the paperwork, the only thing on the form 3 is the sear, and no reference to any host gun in box H or elsewhere, so that aspect seems pretty clear-cut to me.  File the form 4 for the sear, and transfer the host gun to me on a 4473.  Since the host is at that point completely mine to possess, I would be free to take it home.

I get what you're saying now about a dealer having the ability to delay a transfer process, I guess there are some real slimy and petty people in this business, that's very unfortunate.  I don't think this particular dealer would do that, though.

I also get that you have had bad experiences with customers, but to be clear, I have not demanded anything of the dealer nor insisted that a business has to do anything for anyone, it was simply a conversation about what I can take with me and why (their 'why' was a vague claim that the ATF 'makes them do it this way').  I'm just trying to understand and resolve a situation where a dealer is claiming a title 1 firearm is not 'allowed' to be transferred to me on a 4473, a situation that seemed to me a very standard procedure in this industry.

Anyway, I called a few other shops in the area and all of them were willing to 4473 me the host gun while the sear waits on the form 4.  I will speak with the dealer again and try to reach an understanding about the specifics, and if there is no resolution, I will simply have them form 3 it down the road and use one of the other dealers in town from now on.  Sure $100 for one transfer doesn't matter much, but I do spend multiple thousands with this shop.  I'm certain that losing my business won't have a significant impact to their bottom line, but it doesn't generally seem good business practice to drive customers away over simple and resolvable matters for no reason other than an imagined ATF requirement.  I wonder how many others have stopped doing business with them for similar reasons.  They did have a 2nd location close down in recent years.

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As posted above the FNC upper is the serial numbered part of the gun. It is likely now on the sear paperwork. The lower has the hole drilled in it and sear installed. You want the stock, handguards, and pistol grip? Sure - take them off and take them home. Other than that the gun stays together.  Are you worried about them shooting it?  I guess that I may not understand your concerns.  That's my 2 cents. Good luck.

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2 hours ago, Bwana said:

As posted above the FNC upper is the serial numbered part of the gun. It is likely now on the sear paperwork.

Posted above that it is not on the paperwork.

 

2 hours ago, Bwana said:

You want the stock, handguards, and pistol grip? Sure - take them off and take them home. Other than that the gun stays together.

Mentioned in the first post that the dealer would not let me take the handguards and stock home.

 

 

Edited by howdy
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There is one thing that could come into play with this, and I will say I agree with the fact of discussing this before hand, but here is a situation that happened locally to me. Guy bought an M10/45 and took everything with him (minus the receiver) during the transfer, then sadly he passed in a house fire and the extras with the gun went up in flames. All that was left was the lower at the dealer, so now the estate had to sell just a registered M10/45 lower and not a complete gun, losing money in the process. I know this is outside the normal thought process, but I can see where the SOT in question is coming from-something happens to the buyer and then it becomes an issue to try to sell it for the estate. Could also be that someone loses the parts they took home and then tries to blame it on the SOT and paint the person as less than honest. There are more sides to the story than just one. 

In the end this should have been discussed before the transfer was started. 

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Are you sure the gun is title 1 on its own? My FNC shows just the sear on the form 4…there is no mention of the host gun on the paperwork at all, but the gun has a 14” barrel. If the sear is removed, the gun is an unregistered SBR. If I wanted to remove the sear and move it to another FNC I would need to file a form 1 to SBR the host prior to doing so…perhaps your gun has a short barrel also? Who did the conversion? If it was a TBA conversion it is very likely the barrel is shorter than 16”… Other than that, there is no legal reason the host gun couldn’t be transferred to you…but I understand his concern. Not all dealers are gunsmiths and maybe he doesn’t want the hassle or responsibility of removing the sear. Who is responsible if the sear is removed and then when the sear is reinstalled later and say the timing is off or something doesn’t function properly how does he prove that something didn’t happen to the sear while it was in his possession? From his perspective the downside of this probably far outweighs any upside. 

Edited by davises
Missed some info on your post
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Oops missed that you just wanted to take just the upper home- forget what I said about removing the sear…in that same vein though if something doesn’t work right when the upper and lower are put back together how does he know something didn’t happen to the bolt carrier where the carrier engages the sear while it was out of his possession? Or that something else didn’t happen that damaged the bolt or something else in the upper?

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On 2/10/2022 at 7:46 AM, Autogun said:

FNC sears are usually married to the gun.

even thought the lower holds the sear the upper has the upper has serial numbers and is modified.

The FNC upper is not modified for conversion. The bolt carrier has a sear trip added. But the upper is unmolested. The lower is milled to accept the sear. But the lower is just a part, not the firearm. 
 

 

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On 2/10/2022 at 10:46 AM, taylorwso said:

Without knowing how the paperwork came through it might not be as simple as you are saying. I've had more than one expert NFA customer before.

Want to slow down a form 4, not send it in for a few months when they said they did, send it with a wrong number, forget to sign it, oh forget to send it in for a couple months each time.  Each mistake takes 2-4 months to return. 

They don't HAVE to do anything for you, and I don't know why customers have this expectation.  There is no law that says I must transfer anything too you. It basically become a civil matter because legally they can have possession of the item and you can't.

I've become more jaded as I have a few customers try and tell me how to do things. I  have pertinent parts of the NFA section of the USC printed out and posted on a wall and just point when I get questioned.  They usually read a little get pissed and walk away. I will try and help as much as I can but when someone demands something of me I dont respond well.

 

That knife cuts both ways, friend.

Yes, there are terrible Transferees, no doubt about it.

It's also a fact that there are terrible Transferors; I've personally met at least one of them. Sit on forms for weeks so it can be "batched" with other forms, intentionally use a wrong definition ("submachinegun"), make up BS like "I have to test shoot your NIB M11 because I can be held liable if it doesn't work right". 

Having a government issued license doesn't make one an expert. Knowledge of the processes, regulations, laws, nuances, etc. makes one an expert.

Just a view from the other side, your mileage may vary.

-K

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Legally the FNC upper receiver is the Title-1 firearm host based off the ATF classification letter from the mid 2000s.   So assuming the the upper doesn't have a barrel installed that is less than 16", (otherwise the short upper receiver has to stay with the sear as to not be a SBR unto itself)  you legally could take the upper receiver home with you via a 4473.  You could also take the stock, pistol grip, etc. off the lower if you wanted as well as they are just "parts".

I don't personally see why a dealer would care if you wanted to take the FNC upper home via a 4473 or misc lower parts home with you as they are pretty much bolt on/pin on.

However, due to the mechanics of the FNC Sear conversion the FNC MG sear really shouldn't be removed from the lower "receiver" group especially if the now "sear-less" lower remains attached to the non-NFA/non-MG FNC upper.

The FNC sear host lower has a bunch of former semi-auto parts that were modified in order to make the FNC MG sear function.   If  you just "pull" the FNC MG sear out the lower the now "MG sear-less" FNC is mechanically still capable of auto fire as the selector will rotate to the auto position (or 3rb if available) and cam the semi disconnector out of the way letting the hammer ride the bolt carrier home potentially letting it auto slam fire.

This would be similar to your dealer accepting in for transfer an AR15 with a RDIAS and you wanting to take the "AR15 host gun" (which is now full of full auto FCG parts) home via a 4473 with just the RDIAS removed. That AR15 host gun with a full auto trigger, disco, selector, and BCG will still fire full auto even with the RDIAS removed.

Similar to the AR15+RDIAS host example above, I presume the dealer could take out the full auto modded fire control parts from the FNC lower and take the FNC MG sear out of the lower to hold onto for the duration of the NFA transfer and  transfer the title-1 FNC upper and a now full auto FCG empty FNC lower to you.  Since there are no commonly available replacement semi-auto FNC FCG parts out there to swap into your now MG-Sear-less and FA-FCG-removed host you would most likely be taking a non-functional firearm home with you.

However, while potentially legal to do this it may not be something your dealer wants to get involved with in terms of disassembling a rare foreign machinegun gun and being responsible for a bunch of loose parts that if lost may be difficult or impossible to replace and/or getting blamed if the FNC doesn't function correctly once all the full auto fire control parts + sear are reinstalled back into the lower after the transfer completes.

 

Edited by jbntex
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6 hours ago, MontanaRenegade86 said:

Just a view from the other side, your mileage may vary.

-K

I was on the other side for 25 years, had dealer that couldn't spell or fill in a form correctly. Did all my own form 4s/prints/pics then had dealers sign them. While there are shit dealers, there are way more shit customers, not saying OP is one, its mind numbing the stuff I have run into.

Edited by taylorwso
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On 2/22/2022 at 7:13 PM, taylorwso said:

I was on the other side for 25 years, had dealer that couldn't spell or fill in a form correctly. Did all my own form 4s/prints/pics then had dealers sign them. While there are shit dealers, there are way more shit customers, not saying OP is one, its mind numbing the stuff I have run into.

I, for one, would like to hear some of those stories at some point in time. 

Cheers,

KH

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34 minutes ago, MontanaRenegade86 said:

I, for one, would like to hear some of those stories at some point in time. 

 

I had a dias, my first ever MG, that was transferred to my dealer who was a postal employee. He hated the US govt, so he would ship bulk mail without collecting the money from the shipper. Basically shipping mail for free to break the government. He was indicted and sent to prison. His inventory was all scooped up by the ATF.

After a few months they got a new dealer to get the form 4s processed. Said dealer was new and misspelled the sheriffs info and had other things wrong.  I had to fix them and then I waited for the form 4 to clear, once it did, the atf didn't know what to do since the dealer did not have the items in inventory, they just process the forms.

So they kept the items even though the form 4 was cleared.  They had to be threatened with lawyers to give up all the items that had the forms cleared.

a year or so later the guy was cleared as he only had broken postal regs, not any laws.

Since that one, I redo forms that were hand written. I reprint them out so they are all correct and have the dealers sign them. I also just get the ffl info and print them up for the dealer, because its faster and its correct.   I had one old bastard that wouldn't sign the printed forms because it was "illegal". I had to correct his shit handwriting and I also had the photo printed directly to paper ( I had access to the good/expensive adobe program in the mil).  He finally signed after I pointed out his errors.

I have more stories but those are the 2 that still piss me off.

 

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