Jump to content

HK MP5 Questions from Potential Buyer 2022


cyoung2022

Recommended Posts

Greetings from Florida,

 

I am new to the forums and an interested potential buyer of a pre-May '86 transferable MP5. In 2000 I recall a local gun shop owner showing me one in box for $10,000, which at that time was well beyond my financial ability. Now in 2022 it seems prices have increased four to five times.

 

I reached out to Ruben Mendiola through his DealerNFA site because of his reputation for offering quality firearms and exceptional service, and he still has a MP5 available (1557, 6122) for $48,995.00 (https://dealernfa.com/shop/hk-mp5-registered-sear-sh-dyer-excellent-1557-6122/).

 

After extensive online research regarding the MP5, I have the following questions that I'm hoping those with more experience in these forums can answer:

 

1. Ruben said the number 1557 references the sear, made by S & H Arms. In the listing on his site there is an image just before the Terry Dyer certificate that shows S & H Arms, Owassa, OK, and the corresponding number stamped on an unidentifiable piece that doesn't look like the sears I've seen in numerous online images and YouTube videos. I attempted to attach the image but apparently as my account is new, that is not an option.

 

2. Does this weapon feature the sought-after double pushpin?

 

3. The items description states the "host gun is in excellent condition with an SEF Trigger Pack, 3-lug adapter, stamped M05, original mag and mag paddle release, and A3/A4 stock." If it is an original MP5 would it need a 3-lug adapter installed? Was it stamped MP5 or is that an original factory marking? Doesn't the presence of an original mag paddle release indicate it is not an HK94 conversion?

 

4. Does the serial number indicate a date of manufacture?

 

I appreciate any and all feedback in advance of actual considering this purchase. From what I have read online the S & H sear seems to be as reliable as the Fleming, and the price reflects the rarity of such firearms in this condition. Most of all, Ruben's reputation is a critical component, as the market appears to have a plethora of possibly uninformed sellers that are unable to provide this information.

 

Thanks!

 

Craig

Edited by cyoung2022
Correcting font size/spacing
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. This is a transferable sear and it is installed in an HK 94 (host). The S&H sear is an excellent quality sear. The stamping on the weapon showing the sear number was most likely done to make it easier to identify the sear in the trigger pack. The sear in the trigger pack will have that number engraved on it. 

2. This is not a double push pin receiver. The weapon had a paddle mag release installed.

3. As stated above, I would say that this was an HK 94 that was restamped to "MP5" The barrel may be an original MP5 barrel or an HK 94 barrel cut down and rethreaded to allow a 3 lug adapter to be installed. 

4. If the weapon (host) is an HK 94, the serial number (6122) could be used to determine the age of the host.

 Ruben is a straight forward individual to work with in any NFA transaction. I highly recommend him.

Edited by AirCav73
Spelling
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the feedback AirCav73. It's an interesting proposition to purchase an MP5 that is actually an amalgamation of different parts and manufacturers, however, it seems that an original factory model is increasingly rare. Good to know about S & H, as Curtis Higgins' work has an excellent reputation in the industry.

Given the investment it's definitely a purchase that needs consideration, as I would want to visit the range several times each year and not merely keep it as a collectible for future resale. Knowing Terry Dyer worked with Ruben on giving the weapon a full inspection for functionality and durability, gives me confidence that it would bring years of enjoyment.

Thanks again for your time and information!

Craig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Read this..... https://www.hkpro.com/threads/the-complete-reference-on-the-legal-nfa-conversion-of-hk-firearms.527798/

or recommend Reuben read it and answer your questions directly since you'll be paying top of the market and deserve answers directly from the seller if you pay those prices. 

You should know HK's are not that "durable" in general, relative to other SMG's and they are relatively expensive to fix.  I enjoy them and have well in excess of 10K in spare parts, but that doesn't even fill a small tackle box.  Last week I needed a part and there are currently none for sale.  I might end up waiting a year or more for a part to show up for sale. (a 3 round burst left selector switch) before that trigger group is completed.

Best of luck in your purchase.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, taylorwso said:

Does this not read like a bot?

Reads like a person who wants to ask questions formally and doesn't do much internet shorthand conversation or know too much about the NFA world but is trying to learn. Seems he is better than someone saying you can't own a pre-86 transferable machinegun without an FFL, which we all know that we can own pre-86 TRANSFERABLE machineguns. 

 

He isnt asking for money or anything. So I'd guess he just wants info to make a purchase. I appreciate his more formal style. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks johnsonlmg41, AGG, and SGT Fish. I appreciate the responses and messages I've received with excellent articles written about this very subject. There is a lot of information to digest before committing to this type of a purchase, but it's interesting to learn about a new subject I knew next to nothing about.

I look forward to hopefully becoming an active member in this community, and will work on my internet shorthand!

Craig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find myself in a very similar situation to the OP, I appreciate his question and all of the responses so far.  I had read that HKPro thread (very slowly LOL) and learned quite a bit.  The comment from johnsonlmg41 about HKs not being durable was a little bit of a surprise to me...I had heard that roller locks might need a bit more upkeep than a standard DI or blowback gun, but I'm hoping that a $45K+ investment doesn't end up being a maintenance headache.  I'd also be interested in everyone's views on the price difference one should expect between a Fleming/Qualified and S&H sear.  I keep reading that there really is zero functional difference, but in my head I can't help but think that stamped tool steel would be more durable than a casting.  I read an interview with Curtis Higgins where he pretty much said they went with cast because it was faster and easier.  But I'm no metallurgist...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/23/2022 at 7:57 AM, taylorwso said:

Does this not read like a bot?

He definitely is NOT a bot. I've been conversing with him via PM. He is trying to decide if he wants to buy or not. Not a easy decision considering the prices out there.

However I do love shooting my MP5.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/23/2022 at 9:31 AM, johnsonlmg41 said:

Read this..... https://www.hkpro.com/threads/the-complete-reference-on-the-legal-nfa-conversion-of-hk-firearms.527798/

or recommend Reuben read it and answer your questions directly since you'll be paying top of the market and deserve answers directly from the seller if you pay those prices. 

You should know HK's are not that "durable" in general, relative to other SMG's and they are relatively expensive to fix.  I enjoy them and have well in excess of 10K in spare parts, but that doesn't even fill a small tackle box.  Last week I needed a part and there are currently none for sale.  I might end up waiting a year or more for a part to show up for sale. (a 3 round burst left selector switch) before that trigger group is completed.

Best of luck in your purchase.

@johnsonlmg41Here is a new Hk left 4 pos selector https://hkpartspro.com/ambi-4-pos-essl 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^^^^^^Thank you! ^^^^^^

On order.  All I need now is a 4 position MP5K housing.

I do consider them investments.  Paid 7K for a registered trigger housing converted HK94 in the early 2000's.  Yes that's the gun and trigger pack.  Even if the packs are banned, I'd still have a minty German original HK94 for 7k.

A lot depends on how much you pay and when?  Pretty sure I would not buy Tesla stock at today's numbers?  All you can do with stock certificates (if you even get them) is burn them or look at them?  Like tesla stock at $930 or MP5's at 48K, I don't think there's much upside to either at this point and neither one is anything most Americans can afford to have much of?  Tesla can issue a million more shares tomorrow diluting the value, however the odds of congress allowing an amnesty or the manufacturing of transferable guns again is infinitely smaller.  So there's that.  They already banned them, which was a big stretch, but taking them would be extremely unlikely.   Taking 170,000 guns out of 400+ million wouldn't really make sense unless your intent on taking the 400 million?  That's where the "control" and money is at.

Since life is about experiences mostly, having an MP5 ranks very high on my list!  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

From my experience and those who have guided me through the HK waters, the only parts MP5’s require are extractor springs, roller lock plates, and ejector levers. Other than that, you don’t have much issue as long as you use good Ammo and good mags. 

Ive built my MP5 hosts from demil’d MP5 kits. The Fleming sear I bought back in Nov cost me $35.5k and I while it is an investment at this point, I also consider it “cheap” for having a variety of machine guns. With one sear I can shoot my MP5 (2), MP5K, MP5SD (when I finish it) MP5/40, HK93, HK93K, HK51, HK23EK, and HK21 (in process) when you break down that $35.5k across those 10 above hosts, that makes each “machine gun” cost $3,550. Show me 10 machine guns you can buy for that kind of money and gives you those options. 

Edited by Got Uzi
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everybody is making a lot of sense, it’s good to hear from people who have been down this path. I had a gun trust lawyer once tell me that I’d be surprised how many members of Congress own NFA items, he seemed pretty confident they wouldn’t be singled out for a ban. Fingers crossed because I’m going to have to get my feet wet regardless, the HK bug bites hard. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

From my experience and those who have guided me through the HK waters, the only parts MP5’s require are extractor springs, roller lock plates, and ejector levers. Other than that, you don’t have much issue as long as you use good Ammo and good mags. 

Ive built my MP5 hosts from demil’d MP5 kits. The Fleming sear I bought back in Nov cost me $35.5k and I while it is an investment at this point, I also consider it “cheap” for having a variety of machine guns. With one sear I can shoot my MP5 (2), MP5K, MP5SD (when I finish it) MP5/40, HK93, HK93K, HK51, HK23EK, and HK21 (in process) when you break down that $35.5k across those 10 above hosts, that makes each “machine gun” cost $3,550. Show me 10 machine guns you can buy for that kind of money and gives you those options. 

agree with all but a mp5 needs a MAD bolt. So much nicer not dicking with MP5 extractors or broken plates. 

I did the same with the HK sear,  got it for the 91, then went 93 then mp5, then on to the 21. Now I have pretty much all of them including multiple beltfeds. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Potshot McBang said:

Everybody is making a lot of sense, it’s good to hear from people who have been down this path. I had a gun trust lawyer once tell me that I’d be surprised how many members of Congress own NFA items, he seemed pretty confident they wouldn’t be singled out for a ban. Fingers crossed because I’m going to have to get my feet wet regardless, the HK bug bites hard. 

The thing about NFA its written into the USC. It literally takes a act of congress to change it. I think they would be too scared as to what could happen if they tried to change it, IE they mess up the re-write language and all of the sudden there are multiple workarounds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cast vs. Tool Steel. What steel are you casting? How much stress is the part under? What, if any, heat treatment is used? Fudd lore around manufacturing technology is probably the last idiocy that will die in gun debates. You can make castings effectively as strong as forgings; you just aren't going to be saving very much,if any,money.

As for MP5 maintenance, JD Jones told a group of us at a dealer's private shoot the HK military manual recommended full maintenance including replacing the high wear parts......... every 2,000 rounds.

As you may have guessed, this was ignored!

Edited by BrettBaker
Forgot to add where I heard the info
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

cyyoung and potshot....

Do not get caught up in the weeds of SH sear v Fleming sear. There has been maybe like 1 sear in history that has been broken or unrepairable. They are functional identical cast or not. These sears will shoot more rounds than you and your kids and grandkids could possibly shoot. Don't worry about it.

Steer questions to Ruben for sure - he charges a premium and gives premium service so I'm told. 

As mentioned above basically ALL hk MP5s in usa - transferable ones- are cut down hk94s that possibly have been re stamped.

The double push pin conversion may be the truest conversion but is a one trick pony and thus they actually sell for less than unmarried sears + host guns.

If you are a shooter and plan to buy more MGs...then a sear or registered trigger pack/box/frame is the only way to go- amortize that sear price into multiple host guns from subgun to beltfed. If you shoot a lot consider buying some cheaper hosts and beating on them.

 

As far as reliability...you do NOT need to go buy $$$$ worth of parts. Just don't do it. After many yrs of shooting MP5s basically you can be expected to replace the extractor springs (buy about 10 and you're fine), maybe 1 extractor itself, and maybe an extra roller plate. You don't need extra bolts and carriers and all that $$$ jazz. Buy a few extra push pins simply bc you'll lose them occasionally . Oh and I'd buy an extra " re-timed hammer" - I have broken a couple of hammers over the years. They are reliable guns. Have fun!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

rhouston8....

Thanks for your follow-up regarding potentially investing in an MP5 this year. I appreciate the insight into the weapon's reliability, and would make the commitment if it wasn't for the $50,000 price tag. It's mind-blowing to think the same model was $20,000 less within the past decade.

My wife and I both drive 2012 Ford Escapes, each with over 100,000 miles on the odometer. We have been considering a new vehicle and this past weekend I test drove a brand new 2021 Ford Ranger, cactus gray exterior, with the Tremor 4x4 package. It hit me on the way home from the dealership that the truck was priced $5,000 less than the MP5!

I can accept that the valuation is in part determined by supply and demand, and that a transferable HK sear will only be increasingly more difficult to obtain. This decision is bringing me back to my grad school economics course and the paradox of value between essential and non-essential things. Hilarious.

It’s like the old saying goes, “The best things in life are free, the second best are very expensive.” Thanks for everyone’s feedback and input!

Craig

Edited by cyoung2022
Fixed spacing
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 My car is a 2007 Camry that I bought about 4 yrs ago.  I have several HK sears and started HK's about 2004.  Now granted I bought the camry for $1500 after it hit a deer.  Stuck another $900 in parts into it.  The HK's are far more needy than the camry.  Today the camry could bring 4K?  The MP5 with the sear ran 7K at the time.  Simple math really, no need for graduate level econ.  If you're looking to make educated economic decisions by attempting to use college economics (generally faulty theories taught by economically unsuccessful people)  it's not going to go very well?  LOL

As for parts breakage if you've owned an HK21, it's a lot more than ejector springs.  HK's are like Ferrari's, cool, great design, but the odds of making more than 1500 miles or rounds without some issue is not common.  It could be the best 1500mi. of your lifetime however.

The best things in life are never free.  The best things all require a substantial investment.....and the best thing, freedom is most expensive, but most worthwhile.

HK, don't compromise! if you have to justify it to your wife you'll never own an MP5.  LOL

I tell my wife I'm going to take the diamond pendant off her gold necklace and hang a sear on there and see what her friends have to say?  I always tell them the only diamonds that make any money are in saw blades.  I get a lot of puzzled looks?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Johnsonlmg41 isn’t wrong! I did the math and realized my sear is worth roughly twice it’s weight in gold. Kind of a mind blowing concept if you ask me. That being said-you want to have that “one and done” machine gun? You buy a sear and the options are damn near limitless as to what you can have.  You spend big money once and that’s it. Host guns don’t cost as much.....unless you get into HK belt fed stuff and those still don’t cost as much as a sear. 

HK RR guns (average ballpark prices)-

MP5-$27k-$30k 

MP5K-$38k-$40k

MP5SD-$40k-$45k

G3-$22k-$25k

HK33-$24k-$28k

HK21-$38k-$45k (or higher)

HK23E-$42k-$50k (or higher)

 

Now take that same list as a sear and host guns (average ballpark HK hostprices) -

Fleming, Qualified, Vollmer, S&H sear-$35-$40k 

MP5-$6k-$7.5k

MP5K-$8.5k-$10k

MP5SD (will be a conversion gun)-$10k-$12k

HK91-$3k-$5k

HK93-$3k-5k

HK21 (aftermarket host) $10k-$13k 

HK23E (aftermarket host) $12k-$15k

If you don’t want to go the all HK route and want to buy good quality host guns either built on HK parts kits OR new HK pattern host guns those number will go down even further. The point I’m making is that-yes you will spend more for a sear than your first car, or maybe even your first house, you are only buying the expensive part once and then it gets a lot cheaper after that.

While MG’s shouldn’t be seen as investments, they have become such. With a sear it’s almost a non issue as far as hurting it. With RR HK guns, or any RR gun for that matter, you run the risk of being screwed if you have a catistopic failure of some sort....there is no calling up and getting a new receiver at that point. With a sear, even if you blow up the host, the sear won’t see the damage (if it does, your sear will be the last thing on your mind as you’ll be in bad shape) As far as parts go, as we have all stated above, it all depends on what host guns you want and how hard you beat on them. Just like a classic car-you go melting the tires off of it, not changing the fluids, or parking it under a pine tree all summer, it’s going to cost you a lot more than if you took good care of it and regularly maintained it. HK wear parts for most host guns, not counting belt fed weapons, aren’t much different than buying parts for your Glock, decent AR15, or 1911. When talking HK belt fed, or any belt fed for that matter, shit ain’t cheap and it’s hurts the wallet quick! (Not counting the ammo either, they like to eat) 

In the end, only you can decide if you want to buy in at the market, but the market isn’t going to go down drastically to allow for “cheap machine guns” Put it like this-I’m an SOT and I have demo HK trigger packs and even I bought a transferable sear to have post SOT days so I can keep shooting all my HK demo host guns. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I consider my guns to be investments, more liquid than silver or gold, and better profit margin. My factory 104ur SBR has appreciated quite well.

I've thought about selling the whole lot for an RR mp5, but i like the options of different types of shooting... and my SG550 and mr73 are just too nice quality wise to let go atm.

now if there was a transferable swiss SIG......

Edited by coward
Link to comment
Share on other sites

mgs def. arent as liquid as gold/silver. I've waited up to 2.5 yrs for delivery of a ak47 bc of form 4s and bs.

hk21....def a ferrari with its maintenance. mp5 though? nah- pretty straight fwd but yeah more than a m16.

2007 camry?  not bad on the vehicular frugalness. i dig it. I have a 2006 lexus i call the war wagon bc of the amount of hardware i can haul in it down to the range. shock and awe when the trunk opens. hahahahah.

 

50k HKs and 20k Uzis and 10k macs..... lets go brandon and transitory inflation !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...