Pre Sample Question

[ironriver]

Ok so while I am not planning on giving up my SOT anytime soon , I have been purchasing pre-samples as a long term investment and as guns I enjoy to shoot/collect. So I originally got my FFL as an LLC ( I am the ONLY one on the LLC just did LLC for obvious legal safety reasons) I was originally under the impression that I could keep my pre-samples, should I give up my license (why I freaking started buying them in the first place) but now am understanding that I have to be a sole proprietor in order to keep my pre sample guns. Is this correct? or is there a way to keep them as an LLC (I get keeping the LLC alive but that's a yearly expense etc, and involves other things that my wife and I's retirement plan do not include in the next 5 years ) could I form 4 it to myself? I have already started selling my pre-samples and trading for transferable guns but I have this MPL that I really really really love and the thought of getting rid of it just SUCKS. Its my favorite firearm (that and a Swiss K31 ..... side note interesting how price doesn't affect what we grow to love in this hobby/vocation). Anyway, any other thoughts on the matter would be helpful or anything I have over looked. Like I said not thinking of giving it up yet.  

[Ryo]

I always thought it stays under the LLC.. and as long as you keep the business it can stay there.  But I'm not a expert on this.  I would contact the FFL for clarification vs internet knowledge..  I am in the same situation where it would go under my corporation.  I always thought of starting a new business as a sole and get a FFL for that business then phase everything to that FFL.  Since your not giving up your license soon.. maybe do that. 

[ironriver]

Thanks Ryo yeah that is probably what I will end up doing. I have called ATF-NFA on several occasions and I get different answers! lol most of the time its IDK! So I resorted to internet

[taylorwso]

51 minutes ago, ironriver said:

Thanks Ryo yeah that is probably what I will end up doing. I have called ATF-NFA on several occasions and I get different answers! lol most of the time its IDK! So I resorted to internet

14.2.2 Corporations, partnerships, and associations......... FFLs licensed as corporations, partnerships, or associations, who have been qualified to deal in NFA firearms and who go out of the NFA business, may lawfully retain their inventory of these firearms, including imported NFA “sales samples,” as long as the entity does not dissolve but continues to exist under State law. No NFA transfer occurs that

[Renegade]

The Federal Firearms Reference Guide is an invaluable reference, in this case p189:

 When a corporation, partnership, or other type of business entity Special(Occupational) Taxpayer goes out of business, the business may continue to possess firearms other than machineguns registered to the business only if the corporation, partnership, or other type of business entity continues to exist under State law and only if title to the firearms remains in the business after the Special (Occupational) tax stamp expires. Prior to a corporation, partnership or other type of business entity ceasing to exist under State law, all NFA firearms registered to the entity must have been properly transferred to another person. Transfer applications must be submitted and approved before dissolution occurs to avoid placing the possessors in violation of the NFA. If the registered machineguns are transferred to officers or directors of a corporate registrant or individual partners of a partnership, the transaction is a transfer subject to all applicable provisions of the NFA and GCA, including payment of tax.

Any NFA firearms retained by the business that were imported under 26 U.S.C. 5844 for use as samples or for scientific or research purposes may only be transferred to government agencies for official use or to a Federal firearms licensee who has paid the special (occupational) tax to manufacture, import, or deal in NFA firearms.

[Ryo]

Another point about retaining the MGs, if your state doesn't allow ownership of MG (not including grandfathering), you have to give them up. You need your SOT to retain them, even if it is a pre86.dealer sample. At least that was what I was told by the ATF. 

[BDMERC]

It hasn't been amended, and the 2014 edition reads clearly:

(1) Pre–86 Machineguns. Unless otherwise prohibited by State or local law, when an individual Special (Occu- pational) Taxpayer goes out of business, the individual may continue to possess machineguns lawfully imported or man- ufactured prior to May 19, 1986 which are lawfully registered to the individual. These firearms may also be transferred after ATF has approved a proper appli- cation for transfer under the NFA.

When a corporation, partnership, or other type of business entity Special (Occupational) Taxpayer goes out of business, the business may continue to possess pre–86 machineguns registered to the business only if the corporation, partnership, or other type of business entity continues to exist under State law and only if the title to the machineguns remains in the business after the Special (Occupational) tax stamp expires. Prior to a corporation, partnership or other type of business entity ceasing to exist under State law, all NFA firearms registered to the entity must have been properly trans- ferred to another person. Transfer appli- cations must be submitted and approved before dissolution occurs to avoid placing the possessors in violation of the NFA. If the registered machineguns are trans- ferred to officers or directors of a corpo- rate registrant or individual partners of a partnership, the transaction is a transfer subject to all applicable provisions of the NFA and GCA, including payment of tax.

My attorney advised to keep things simple with the LLC organized and managed by a sole individual, the FFL/ SOT. Multiple officers in a LLC create issues with retention of transferables and pre samples.

Legal reasoning is that if a sole proprietor/ LLC is a FFL holder in compliance, pays the yearly SOT, and keeps the LLC current, said sole proprietor/ LLC can obtain, transfer and retain NFA weapons as a sole entity, no different than an individual FFL/SOT. 

 

[tarh33l]

Good info on keeping it as a LLC. No transfer of possession since it is registered to the LLC, but you do have to keep it active and all that entails. There's a bunch of good info in the NFA Handbook for many of your NFA questions, and I'd also highly recommend joining the NSSF. It's $100/year for a small dealer, includes your first badge to SHOT with additional at $35 each (this alone is worth the cost, as it's $150 per badge for a non-member), plus there is a compliance hotline you can call with any questions such as this.