timelinex

Private Party Transfers

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Posted (edited)

This is regarding in-state transfers (Arizona).

I know that technically all you have to do to do for a private party transfer is a form 4. The issue is that you are stuck in a limbo state where for a year the seller has both the item and the money or the seller has to trust a stranger will pay him a year later when the item is officially not his anymore.

So then I have questions for 2 other possible situations:

1. I know that you can also do a double stamp transaction where the seller form 4's it to the dealer and the dealer form 4's it to you. In this situation, the SOT dealer can hold the item from day 1 correct? If so, this seems safer and worth $200 extra when dealing with a MG. However, I am guessing you can't have both forms concurrently processing, which means it will add ~100 days correct? Lastly, private party sales do not have sales tax here in AZ. But would I now have to pay sales tax on the purchase now that the dealer is the intermediary? Since at a certain point the item is in the dealers name and then it goes to mine, does that make it a retail purchase? I know in regular between state transfers, I would not since the dealer is just considered to be transfering the item. But here it seems messier since at a certain point it's in their name.

2. If the seller of the item has the item in a trust, can he just add me as a co-trustee. That way I am allowed to hold onto the item while my form 4 processes. I know adding someone as a trustee instead of doing a form 4 transfer is a gray area in the NFA community because it can be seen as tax evasion. But I don't think this would apply as tax evasion since we would not be removing the original owner, so it's not "transferring" anything. More importantly, I will also simultaneously be filing the form 4 and paying the tax immediately. This doesn't seem to be tax evasion any more than having a beneficiary or adding a trustee at a later time to your trust so they can use the weapon (Which is legal).

Let me know.

Thanks

Edited by timelinex

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3 hours ago, timelinex said:

This is regarding in-state transfers (Arizona).

I know that technically all you have to do to do for a private party transfer is a form 4. The issue is that you are stuck in a limbo state where for a year the seller has both the item and the money or the seller has to trust a stranger will pay him a year later when the item is officially not his anymore.

So then I have questions for 2 other possible situations:

1. I know that you can also do a double stamp transaction where the seller form 4's it to the dealer and the dealer form 4's it to you. In this situation, the SOT dealer can hold the item from day 1 correct? If so, this seems safer and worth $200 extra when dealing with a MG. However, I am guessing you can't have both forms concurrently processing, which means it will add ~100 days correct? Lastly, private party sales do not have sales tax here in AZ. But would I now have to pay sales tax on the purchase now that the dealer is the intermediary? Since at a certain point the item is in the dealers name and then it goes to mine, does that make it a retail purchase? I know in regular between state transfers, I would not since the dealer is just considered to be transfering the item. But here it seems messier since at a certain point it's in their name.

2. If the seller of the item has the item in a trust, can he just add me as a co-trustee. That way I am allowed to hold onto the item while my form 4 processes. I know adding someone as a trustee instead of doing a form 4 transfer is a gray area in the NFA community because it can be seen as tax evasion. But I don't think this would apply as tax evasion since we would not be removing the original owner, so it's not "transferring" anything. More importantly, I will also simultaneously be filing the form 4 and paying the tax immediately. This doesn't seem to be tax evasion any more than having a beneficiary or adding a trustee at a later time to your trust so they can use the weapon (Which is legal).

Let me know.

Thanks

How else would it go from the seller to the dealer if the seller is not licensed? Yes, two stamp transaction. Is the dealer paying for it or are you? The sot dealer is there to assist you in the transaction because you are not licensed. That’s it, and to make sure you are suitable to have the item after the tax return is completed by the nfa branch and they do their thing with fbi background check etc.

Why would the seller agree to adding you to their trust? Is it a relative selling to you? You’re still going to need an sot to facilitate the interstate movement of the item in question regardless to have it transferred to you.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

13 minutes ago, rob1 said:

Why would the seller agree to adding you to their trust? Is it a relative selling to you? You’re still going to need an sot to facilitate the interstate movement of the item in question regardless to have it transferred to you.

 

 

 

Why would they care about adding me to their trust for an item that they were already paid for? Obviously this is assuming the trust only owns that one item.

 

From my understanding, this would be the safest and easiest way to do a private party transfer. They get their money, I am assured that I get my MG since now I am on the trust and can legally possess it while my form 4 clears. Otherwise It's a terrible situation where 1 of the 2 strangers has to trust the other person will not either disappear with their item or their money.

 

If my post wasn't clear, I am talking about INTRA-state transfers where a dealer is not required to be involved.

Edited by timelinex

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10 minutes ago, timelinex said:

Why would they care about adding me to their trust for an item that they were already paid for? Obviously this is assuming the trust only owns that one item.

 

From my understanding, this would be the safest and easiest way to do a private party transfer. They get their money, I am assured that I get my MG since now I am on the trust and can legally possess it while my form 4 clears. Otherwise It's a terrible situation where 1 of the 2 strangers has to trust the other person will not either disappear with their item or their money.

 

If my post wasting clear, I am talking about INTRA-state transfers where a dealer is not required to be involved.

Trusts are an estate planning tool. Highly unlikely they would agree to add you to their trust even if it’s the only item in the trust. They likely have the power to remove you from the trust with a quick amendment then you are forced to return trust property to the grantor/settlor. If you want piece of mind draft up a contract for the sale of the item and wait for the item to be approved. Pay with a method to track the money, ie check/money order/bank check etc. Any failure to deliver on the contract/sellers part is going to be a civil issue. Don’t expect the nfa to help you out there. 

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2 minutes ago, rob1 said:

Trusts are an estate planning tool. Highly unlikely they would agree to add you to their trust even if it’s the only item in the trust. They likely have the power to remove you from the trust with a quick amendment then you are forced to return trust property to the grantor/settlor. If you want piece of mind draft up a contract for the sale of the item and wait for the item to be approved. Pay with a method to track the money, ie check/money order/bank check etc. Any failure to deliver on the contract/sellers part is going to be a civil issue. Don’t expect the nfa to help you out there. 

I think we have completely different understanding of what is being discussed here. Trusts in this context are used for completely different purposes than "estate planning tools". I appreciate you taking the time to chime in and give your opinion.

Still open to hear other people's opinions on the trust matter.

Thanks

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To get the security you want, You buy from the bigger, reputable dealers. You will pay more, but your gun/money is more secure.

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1 minute ago, gftiv said:

To get the security you want, You buy from the bigger, reputable dealers. You will pay more, but your gun/money is more secure.

Honestly it doesn't even seem like the dealers are asking for more than private party. It's more so an issue of inventory than anything else.

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8 minutes ago, timelinex said:

I think we have completely different understanding of what is being discussed here. Trusts in this context are used for completely different purposes than "estate planning tools". I appreciate you taking the time to chime in and give your opinion.

Still open to hear other people's opinions on the trust matter.

Thanks

Depends on what your trying to achieve. Security that you will eventually get your item go with a contract that would be enforceable in the jurisdiction you live in. The trust route would work too and you would get the item in your hands sooner however what if you break it while it’s in transfer to you? Then what? That is why a seller might be hesitant to go that route. Too many variables that could go wrong. Be patient  like everyone else buying nfa stuff. Good luck

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2 minutes ago, rob1 said:

Depends on what your trying to achieve. Security that you will eventually get your item go with a contract that would be enforceable in the jurisdiction you live in. The trust route would work too and you would get the item in your hands sooner however what if you break it while it’s in transfer to you? Then what? That is why a seller might be hesitant to go that route. Too many variables that could go wrong. Be patient  like everyone else buying nfa stuff. Good luck

Why would the seller care if I break it? I've already payed him the money for it. On the other hand, if I don't go the trust route, he literally coudl do exactly as you say, and use it while it's waiting for transfer and then I have little recourse but courts.

To be clear, the point isn't to shortcut the waiting process.

Your point about a contract is a good one, but I just don't think a contract where I have to go to court to enforce it, is as good as literally having it in my hands during the waiting period and KNOWING it's safe.

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8 minutes ago, timelinex said:

Why would the seller care if I break it? I've already payed him the money for it. On the other hand, if I don't go the trust route, he literally coudl do exactly as you say, and use it while it's waiting for transfer and then I have little recourse but courts.

To be clear, the point isn't to shortcut the waiting process.

Your point about a contract is a good one, but I just don't think a contract where I have to go to court to enforce it, is as good as literally having it in my hands during the waiting period and KNOWING it's safe.

Contract protects both parties as expectations are in writing for the item while it’s in transfer status. It’s your first acquisition. You’re afraid which is normal. You could stipulate in the contract to strip all of the parts off the receiver so the seller is left with just that a bare receiver, and you take home the unregulated parts. You pick up after approval comes in. Becoming a co-trustee is not worth it. 

Good luck either way.

 

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Hi OP,

A thought. (and I've been wrong before!):

" 1. I know that you can also do a double stamp transaction where the seller form 4's it to the dealer and the dealer form 4's it to you. In this situation, the SOT dealer can hold the item from day 1 correct? "  Not correct.  Unless someone can show me chapter and verse, the firearm stays with or under the control of the registrant.  An FFL or FFL/SOT can possess the firearm for repairs but I'm unaware of any relief under the NFA for facilitating sales.

Always learning,

Grasshopper

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10 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

  An FFL or FFL/SOT can possess the firearm for repairs but I'm unaware of any relief under the NFA for facilitating sales.

Correct...an 01 FFL is a dealer / gunsmithing license.  In combination with the SOT it's completely legit to accept a MG in for "gunsmithing services."  It's controversial with some because both the type and length of those "gunsmithing services" in this context are not defined...removing the tax-free Form 5 transfer for gunsmithing requirement years ago opened the door to do this. 

I've sold guns both ways...sent immediately to the SOT for "gunsmithing services" while the Form 4 approval waits -and- sent to the SOT only after the Form 4 was approved.  As a seller...it doesn't much matter to me and I'm happy to do it either way the buyer/SOT prefers.

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I know you want to:

1. Be more confident in getting your purchase since it is a large priced item.
2. Get your purchase as soon as possible.

I've seen your posts where your trying to get around the system such as doing transfers using trusts, etc. I would avoid doing things like that but that's your choice.

If your really nervous about it all, I recommend buying from a bigger dealer. There is cost involved in buying from bigger dealers. Yes I know you have mentioned costs were higher than what you wanted to purchase for, but wouldn't it be worth it for your sanity?

Sure you can have a contract.. but scammers don't care about contracts. Having a contract isn't a bad idea, but just wanted to point that out.

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I totally understand the benefits of buying from a dealer. I'm not against it at all and I'm not just trying to save a few dollars. It seems to me that the dealer prices and prvate party prices are pretty aligned right now. The bigger issue is actually the dealers just don't really have what I am looking for right now.

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Are you talking about Colt M16s?  I've seen a few advertised.. unless you're looking for something more specific.. or are you talking about M60s? Those are a bit more rare.

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Since you seem very nervous about buying an NFA item, I would suggest buying from a dealer. You will pay more but it will give you peace of mind. If buying from an individual then have them transfer to a dealer you trust. This could add a few months to your transfer. 

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I too live in AZ and have both bought and sold nfa items in state. Remember, once submitted and ultimately approved the registered item is no longer the sellers and typically is handed off quickly with the assigned form 4. 
 

As a buyer, i have also taken all non registered parts, magazines, etc at time of payment and only left the serialized receiver with seller. 
 

or if too nervous buy through a dealer. 

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Posted (edited)

I know the simplest thing to do is just buy from a trusted dealer. But thats not the question.

I think I've got a new idea.

What if I pay the seller for the rifle, send the form 4, take off all the non-registered parts and take them. Then we get a locked container and put the lower into the locked container. He keeps the key and I take the locked container. He writes a letter stating he is allowing the MG to be stored at my house.

I think that abides by ALL pertinent laws.

According to the atf:

Quote

"The firearm could also be left or stored in the former state of residence at the house of a friend or relative in a locked room or container to which only the registered owner has a key. The friend or relative should be supplied with a copy of the registration forms and a letter from the owner authorizing storage of the firearm at that location."

This makes sense as you are allowed to store your nfa items in the same residence as others, AS LONG AS, its in a locked container that they can't open. So it's using the same idea. I believe the reason for the letter is for LEO to know it's not stolen since it's not the same address of owner. Coincidently, the seller I am talking with right now actually literally is moving out of state soon, so even if it didn't apply without that portion of the situation, it really does apply.

What do you guys think?

Edited by timelinex

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20 minutes ago, timelinex said:

What do you guys think?

I think, you don't really have the stomach for this game.  As a suggestion...stamps and coins might be more suitable for you.

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I think your idea will work but to be honest you seem like a worry wart. Just saying...

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Locked box.. Interesting take. Very creative. 

That could be legal.. But I'm not a lawyer or the ATF. 

 

Dealing with NFA you just have to sometimes stomach the distrust. Remember that some peoe you buy from may not want to do those games because they are nervous you would just cut the box and get the firearm, etc. 

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Posted (edited)

I'm not sure why everyone is getting worked up. I'm overall ok with doing a private party transaction. It will likely be face to face to, which is another level of protection. I know it will 99%+ chance go smoothly and with no problems.

But I've don't all sorts of deals for business as ane even when we implicitly trust each other, it is ALWAYS better for EVERYONE for terms to be clear and to do it in the least risk exposure way possible. That's all I'm trying to do. To learn about the process and make it as smooth as possible. An ounce of prevention is worth a point of cure.

It's as much about respect/protection for the seller as it is for me. Even though he has the money, he would now have to keep safe an expensive item for me which isn't great for them either.

Hope that clears things up.

 

Edited by timelinex

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2 minutes ago, Ryo said:

Locked box.. Interesting take. Very creative. 

That could be legal.. But I'm not a lawyer or the ATF. 

 

Dealing with NFA you just have to sometimes stomach the distrust. Remember that some peoe you buy from may not want to do those games because they are nervous you would just cut the box and get the firearm, etc. 

Cutting the box and getting the firearm is only a disservice to himself and no skin off his back. Again, he now has all the money and I am now in possible of a MG illegally.

 

But hopefully my post right before this one clears up why I am asking these questions.

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Well keep up with creative loopholes. I was very entertained by the locked box idea. Probably one of the more interesting ways I've heard in a long time. 

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Posted (edited)

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2021 at 4:28 PM, Schmeisser Guy said:

Since you seem very nervous about buying an NFA item, I would suggest buying from a dealer. You will pay more but it will give you peace of mind. If buying from an individual then have them transfer to a dealer you trust. This could add a few months to your transfer. 

Currently waiting on 3 separate individual to dealer transfers right now that were RECEIVED by the ATF at the beginning of Feb and showed up as ENTERED in my eForms acct at the end of April, still not approved... it's not going to be a lot less time to transfer it to a dealer intermediary right now and will likely tack on a lot of extra time waiting for the 2nd transfer to you.

To the OP, the other issue you'll have is that as the buyer you have no control over the process other than deciding whether or not to give the seller your money.  You can propose all sorts of creative transfer ideas but it's highly unlikely the seller will agree.  It's a seller's market, you need to decide if you have the cojones to play in it or not.

Edited by b_san
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So you seem to be very nervous about this whole idea. You cannot take the registered part in a lock box etc without an approved form 4, period end. You do not own until the BATFE says you can for each and every item. I guess if you took all the parts home and were denied you had better be prepared to return all pieces in original condition and offer full refund.

This is your first transfer? May we also ask if this is for a Mac/Reising or Stoner 63/unfired M60 you are worried about? How much is this transaction?

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, cieneguita said:

You do not own until the BATFE says you can for each and every item. I guess if you took all the parts home and were denied you had better be prepared to return all pieces in original condition and offer full refund.

One quibble with this, neither the ATF, NFA law nor the transfer paperwork/process confers ownership.  All it does is permit the transfer of possession.  Agreements to exchange one item for something else of value (whether that's money or other items in trade) confers ownership.  Once and agreement is made and the item is paid for, it's owned by the buyer, if the transfer application isn't approved it's still owned by the buyer however he may not take possession of it.

A sales contract for an NFA item should have a clause defining what would happen in the case of a denied transfer. In an in-state sale, usually there will be a percent of the payment that will be kept by the seller as recompense for his not having the ability to sell to a qualified buyer and/or the use of the item during that failed transfer wait.  But some sellers will take an ALL SALES FINAL approach and if the transfer is denied, the buyer will then need to find a new buyer for the item or work with the seller to find one and may or may not lose some of his investment on resale.  If the item in question has transferred to an intermediate FFL/SOT in the buyer's state and the buyer's F4 is denied, that is an even more likely outcome, as the seller is out of the picture by that point and the receiving FFL (now in possession of the NFA item) will likely help the failed buyer find a new buyer (for a fee of course).

Edited by b_san

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3 minutes ago, b_san said:

One quibble with this, neither the ATF, NFA law nor the transfer paperwork/process confers ownership.  All it does is permit the transfer of possession.  Agreements to exchange one item for something else of value (whether that's money or other items in trade) confers ownership.  Once and agreement is made and the item is paid for, it's owned by the buyer, if the transfer application isn't approved it's still owned by the buyer however he may not take possession of it.

A sales contract for an NFA item should have a clause defining what would happen in the case of a denied transfer. In an in-state sale, usually there will be a percent of the payment that will be kept by the seller as recompense for his not having the ability to sell to a qualified buyer and/or the use of the item during that failed transfer wait.  But some sellers will take an ALL SALES FINAL approach and if the transfer is denied, the buyer will then need to find a new buyer for the item or work with the seller to find one and may or may not lose some of his investment on resale.  If the item in question has transferred to an intermediate FFL/SOT in the buyer's state and the buyer's F4 is denied, that is an even more likely outcome, as the seller is out of the picture by that point and the receiving FFL (now in possession of the NFA item) will likely help the failed buyer find a new buyer (for a fee of course).

Right. I am glad you are using exact language, because when dealing with the law it is important.

 

2 hours ago, cieneguita said:

So you seem to be very nervous about this whole idea. You cannot take the registered part in a lock box etc without an approved form 4, period end. You do not own until the BATFE says you can for each and every item. I guess if you took all the parts home and were denied you had better be prepared to return all pieces in original condition and offer full refund.

This is your first transfer? May we also ask if this is for a Mac/Reising or Stoner 63/unfired M60 you are worried about? How much is this transaction?

An m16, but I am also looking for an m60.

I'm not sure what ownership has to do with me taking the registered part in the way I described. I'm not taking the registered part because I own it or have some kind of permission from the BATFE to possess it as my own. I am storing it for the seller. Storing it for someone else is explicitly allowed by the ATF as long as it is in a locked container you don't have a key to and you have a letter stating you are given permission to store it. So I'm not sure if you fully read my post or what? If you own a MG as an individual and you keep it at home unlocked... The second you leave the house while your wife is home, you guys are TECHNICALLY in trouble as she has construed possession of something she isn't allowed to have. Something along those lines. What makes it ok is if you have it in a safe she doesn't have access to. Implying that possession is defined by who has the ability to ultimately hold it in their hands without extraordinary/illegal actions (like cutting into a container).

This is not my first transfer, but this would be my first private party NFA transfer.

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I don't know of anyone that is going to part out a MG, even if you pay in full, so the odds of finding a seller agreeable to your terms will likely end your chance of ever owning an M60.  It may be possible to buy just an M16 lower, but I doubt anyone is going to send you the trigger parts? 

Spouses and others are allowed access for a number of reasons legal and practical , unless they are prohibited persons, then they can be in the same household unsecured, just not touchable (the gun that is), a very gray area but I do know it happens.

Lot of "what if's", not really relevant since you clearly have personal trust issues, but seem to think because a person ponies up $500 a year for an SOT that makes them trustworthy.  I find that hilarious.  I do business with a lot of people and never have I used an SOT as a criteria as to whether or not to buy or sell an NFA item, or a beer from a non SOT holding  bar. 

A locked box at your locked house doesn't work for  an SOT being audited having to produce an item supposedly in their inventory....yet at your locked house?  50 point deduction for a stupid idea.

 

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I purchased my first MG 8 years ago .  I was also concerned about sending large sums of money to someone I did not really know and then to hopefully have the gun shipped to my dealer.  The gentlemen that I purchased from understood it was my first NFA purchase and had references, he was also very good about communicating through the process.  Form 4 to dealer is running 3-4 months.  If the seller is open to the idea, you could have an escrow account set up through an attorney (at your expense.). Money changing hands after your dealer receives the gun.  Side note: I just picked up my S&W 76 ( 6 months 7 days) from time of cashed check.  So you might be pushing your wait time.  I think it is also important to make sure that the other people on the trust/ or spouse know the item is being sold.  If there is a spouse or heir, I think it is important that they know about the transfer, in case of  death of the person making the transfer.  I would shy away from trying to circumvent any of the “normal” transfer processes that have existed for some time.  I must admit I am glad I do not have an M16 or M60 for sale….  Good luck in your search!
 

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Posted (edited)

That is a valid point.. Maybe a Escrow might work out if you don't mind paying the fees. 

Remember that it is a two way street. The seller has to trust you too. Maybe he holds more of the cards, but you have to build trust. 

Edited by Ryo

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Thanks for chiming in guys. I know many of you guys are in the "I've always done it this way so it is the only way" thought process, and I understand and respect it. KISS (Keep it simple stupid) works. 

I will be moving forward with a private party purchase of an m16 locally and we will do it the lockbox way. I have talked to more people and that doing it this way is "by the book" as long as I do not have the key.

In case you guys didn't get it from my last post, it's not just about trusting another individual. That's only one small part of it. I've talked to the seller more and I believe he is trustworthy. And it's not about getting it sooner or circumventing some wait time (I won't have access to it!). But anything can happen in a year. if it is possible for a seller to not have to be responsible for something that is no longer theirs, that is the best option.

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If you find some one who is willing to do it this way with the lock box.. More power to you. 

I think you understand this already but you still need trust. You send the money and he doesn't send the lower is still a very real possibility... Or even the possibility of the seller sending you a rock in a locked box. Enjoy your M16. Get a MCR and other fun uppers for it. I also recommend the Surefire OBC. 

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Ryo said:

If you find some one who is willing to do it this way with the lock box.. More power to you. 

I think you understand this already but you still need trust. You send the money and he doesn't send the lower is still a very real possibility... Or even the possibility of the seller sending you a rock in a locked box. Enjoy your M16. Get a MCR and other fun uppers for it. I also recommend the Surefire OBC. 

For sure. Thanks for the suggestions. I will have to load up on uppers now xD

I just wanted to reiterate this point since people keep mentioning it....There is absolutely zero reason a seller should have for not wanting to agree to this once he has the money as he carries no risk. He has what's owed to him ($$) and legally I own the gun as soon as I hand over the money, I just don't have the right to possess it. Even if I was wrong about my interpretation of the ATF rules. It would be me that is on the hook for anything as I am the one that would be in some form of constructive possession not him. As a side note, ALOT of guys in California own NFA items that they keep at their friedns house elsewhere. It's not allowed in CA but they still want it for collection and/or use when they are visiting. It's allowed for the same reason.

Anyways, thanks again for the input guys.

Edited by timelinex

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Curious to know why the seller (the registered owner until the transfer takes place) would trust you?   With a box that can be opened in minutes at the right location?  And what safeguards are you providing to him to know that you're locked box doesn't end up stolen from you and in a kick the can in a crack house game?  Or what if something happens to you and the transfer can't be completed for a number of reasons?  What is the sellers recourse for getting back control of the item registered to him?

We have done it a specific way over decades because it's made sense for a number of reasons already pointed out.  While everyone is looking for a new wheel, this wheel has been rolling for 87 years.

MG's can be kept in CA, it's just not a fun process. 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

Curious to know why the seller (the registered owner until the transfer takes place) would trust you?   With a box that can be opened in minutes at the right location?  And what safeguards are you providing to him to know that you're locked box doesn't end up stolen from you and in a kick the can in a crack house game?  Or what if something happens to you and the transfer can't be completed for a number of reasons?  What is the sellers recourse for getting back control of the item registered to him?

We have done it a specific way over decades because it's made sense for a number of reasons already pointed out.  While everyone is looking for a new wheel, this wheel has been rolling for 87 years.

MG's can be kept in CA, it's just not a fun process. 

The seller does not need to trust me in any way. He has his money already. Giving me the rifle to store at my house in a locked container I dont have the key to is legal for hom to do and literally on the ATF's own website and rules written down. It's not some random agent told me it can be done. It's the official policy that is written down..

From there, asking what happens if I crack it open, is like asking what happens If I crack open the safe at his house.. I AM NOW ILLEGALLY IN POCCESSION OF A MG. It was illegal for me to crack it open. Whats he got to do with it? He has done nothing wrong and I have.

If something happens to me and the transfer can't be completed, it is once again a me issue. I own the MG. Lets ask it the other way. If he was holding onto it it during the transfer and something happened to me or I got denied. What happens? He has a MG in his possession that's not his but that he is the only one allowed to possess and I (or my estate) own a MG that we aren't yet allowed to possess. Crappy situation for all. The least complicated thing to do is to do a refund, but that is completely at the mercy of the seller. He can refuse. The more likely scenario is I (my estate) has to find a new buyer and start the process from scratch.

The fact that he is storing the MG legally according to ATF rules at my house during this time doesn't change anything. The liability is ALL on me, not on him. 

Edited by timelinex

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I just have to comment on your statement that it's mostly on you.

Actually it's not all on you. The seller is putting a NFA item in a uncontrolled environment.  It's like giving a person who possibly not allowed to own a firearm, a firearm in a locked box. You haven't verified that that person can legally own it. Let's say hypothetically that person takes it and does a shootout with it.. do you think the buyer is off the hook? I don't know if they could be charged with negligence, but they definitely would be be liable with civil lawsuit.

Personally I wouldn't send any of my NFA items in a locked box to a person.

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2 minutes ago, Ryo said:

The seller is putting a NFA item in a uncontrolled environment.  It's like giving a person who possibly not allowed to own a firearm, a firearm in a locked box. 

This is a false statement. 

This happens every single day to tens of thousands of firearm owners. Their spouse is a felon, so how can they own a firearm as you are not allowed to have a firearm on same household as a fellow. Simple. As long as its locked in a container container they don't have access to, you are allowed to own one, leave it at your house while away and the felon is home, leave it In your car you guys share, etc...

It seems like you guys are going off gut feeling and not the actual law/rules as they are written.

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Posted (edited)

21 minutes ago, Ryo said:

Let's say hypothetically that person takes it and does a shootout with it.. do you think the buyer is off the hook? I don't know if they could be charged with negligence, but they definitely would be be liable with civil lawsuit.

Literally no more or less on/off the hook as if I broke into his safe and took the firearm. Which is the exact point. The act of having me store it for him in a locked container is literally allowed according to their own written rules.

Yes, I also understand that you can be arrested for anything, then you have to face your day in court. That is true of basically every circumstance though. For every example you guys can give, there is an equal and opposite side to it that could also happen. 

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree!

Edited by timelinex

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I wasn't talking about the "law" of getting arrested. If you notice I left it a bit vague. However I am 100% sure the seller will get a lawsuit if the buyer (criminal) cut it open and used it in a crime spree or worst, a shooting. People have been sued for less and lost. I'm just pointing out that the seller has to determine if they want to take that risk. You keep bring up that the buyer is mostly on the hook. 

I know that this wouldn't be in your scenario because your a buyer (or maybe it does, I don't know you, but I'm assuming your a law abiding citizen). Please don't take it personally since it's not directed at you. I'm just pointing out there is a major risk for the seller, not a minor one at that.

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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, Ryo said:

I wasn't talking about the "law" of getting arrested. If you notice I left it a bit vague. However I am 100% sure the seller will get a lawsuit if the buyer (criminal) cut it open and used it in a crime spree or worst, a shooting. People have been sued for less and lost. I'm just pointing out that the seller has to determine if they want to take that risk. You keep bring up that the buyer is mostly on the hook. 

I know that this wouldn't be in your scenario because your a buyer (or maybe it does, I don't know you, but I'm assuming your a law abiding citizen). Please don't take it personally since it's not directed at you. I'm just pointing out there is a major risk for the seller, not a minor one at that.

No worries. I'm not taking it personally! I really do appreciate the input. I would rather bicker back and forth with you guys and see if I'm missing something,, than do something that atf would frown on..

I dont deny what you are saying about possible civil liability. As you illuded to, you can be sued for anything these days!! Isn't this just the risk that is inherent in owning a MG in the first place though? If I take it from his home locked container, same civil liability for him. In both way I am the one that did something illegal to aquire the MG, but since his name is involved somewhere, the opponents lawyer will try to rope him in into the civil lawsuit. I do understand that what you are likely getting at is its probably easier for me to cut open a container at my home versus his. But on the other hand, we are pretty far into the "what if's". In my defense, none of these constructive posession NFA laws have ever been tested in court and no MG has been used in shootings for good reason....those that are willing to pay 30k to legally do something they can do with a cheap mod on a cheap ar15, aren't typically the same clientele as those that are doing the shootings.....but again, I do understand your point that is is a possibility.

Edited by timelinex

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Someone sure is Hell-Bent on being a test case!  ;)

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OP: The question is, have you found a seller who will accede to your requests?

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1 hour ago, timelinex said:

No worries. I'm not taking it personally! I really do appreciate the input. I would rather bicker back and forth with you guys and see if I'm missing something,, than do something that atf would frown on..

I dont deny what you are saying about possible civil liability. As you illuded to, you can be sued for anything these days!! Isn't this just the risk that is inherent in owning a MG in the first place though? If I take it from his home locked container, same civil liability for him. In both way I am the one that did something illegal to aquire the MG, but since his name is involved somewhere, the opponents lawyer will try to rope him in into the civil lawsuit. I do understand that what you are likely getting at is its probably easier for me to cut open a container at my home versus his. But on the other hand, we are pretty far into the "what if's". In my defense, none of these constructive posession NFA laws have ever been tested in court and no MG has been used in shootings for good reason....those that are willing to pay 30k to legally do something they can do with a cheap mod on a cheap ar15, aren't typically the same clientele as those that are doing the shootings.....but again, I do understand your point that is is a possibility.

If I were you I would reach out to an attorney who’s job it will be to reach out to the local atf field office and the US attorneys office in the jurisdiction this is occurring in and get assurances from those offices that what you are planning is ok and you will not face federal prosecution. 

Had a couple of mg’s stored with a sot dealer about two decades ago, and the dealer became the target of a federal investigation. Long story short had to wait a couple of years to get the mg’s out of the atf field office where they were being stored as they were seized. Had to work with an atf special agent, and the nfa branch to coordinate retrieval. Not going to dive into specifics of this.

If the seller is moving soon you might be able to get your items faster if the seller contacts the nfa branch to let them know of the move while your forms are pending. The nfa branch will work with someone who is moving to another state with pending items in transfer status. You have to give them heads up though and some kind of proof of an impending move out of state.

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54 minutes ago, b_san said:

OP: The question is, have you found a seller who will accede to your requests?

Sounded like he did, I think he found a M16A1 since he is now asking question about determining what to look for with one on ARFCOM.

I suspect even if he didn't there would be some people willing to do the lock box idea..

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28 minutes ago, Ryo said:

Sounded like he did, I think he found a M16A1 since he is now asking question about determining what to look for with one on ARFCOM.

I suspect even if he didn't there would be some people willing to do the lock box idea..

Wouldn’t recommend anyone do a lock box. People have to figure things out on their own though. 

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On 6/4/2021 at 9:27 AM, b_san said:

OP: The question is, have you found a seller who will accede to your requests?

I ended up purchasing an M16 yesterday. The seller was initially fine with doing the lock box method but then decided against it. I was OK with either way, so I took all non-registered parts and now the waiting game starts.

Thanks for all you gentlemens input.

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Congratulations!

Yeah.. that lock box thing was iffy in my opinion that a seller would accept it.  Like I said I thought it was creative. Only way I would be comfortable doing that idea is if I actually knew the person.

You going to hunt for a MCR/Shrike or a Razorback 22LR?

You might want to also look into buffer and spring combinations. Small changes really make the M16 more fun to shoot. I'm running a Surefire OBC when not using the MCR or Razorback upper. 

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1 hour ago, Ryo said:

Congratulations!

Yeah.. that lock box thing was iffy in my opinion that a seller would accept it.  Like I said I thought it was creative. Only way I would be comfortable doing that idea is if I actually knew the person.

You going to hunt for a MCR/Shrike or a Razorback 22LR?

You might want to also look into buffer and spring combinations. Small changes really make the M16 more fun to shoot. I'm running a Surefire OBC when not using the MCR or Razorback upper. 

Thanks!

 

I think I will be changing all the parts on the m16 and holding the originals in my safe. I was going to get a dedicated new upper, but realized that I have full auto compatible uppers already and I realistically wont be shooting it THAT often, so I will probably just use one of the ar15 uppers I currently have. But I definitely want to get a dedicated 22 upper. The Razorback 22lr would be ideal, so I'll have to keep an eye out for one. Let me know if you see one!

 

I have a 8.5" suppressed noveske 300blk upper that I run with subsonic ammo that works flawlessly in semi auto. It is rediculously quite. All you hear is basically the BCG. I am excited to see if how that will work FA :x

Edited by timelinex

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I see them pop up on GunBroker all the time but for way too much money. Been lucky to get mine for a reasonable price. 

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20 hours ago, timelinex said:

I ended up purchasing an M16 yesterday. The seller was initially fine with doing the lock box method but then decided against it. I was OK with either way, so I took all non-registered parts and now the waiting game starts.

Thanks for all you gentlemens input.

Nice, glad you got it sorted.

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