Tubegunner

WTS: General Motors, div. (BLC) ANM2 .30, C&R

Location: WI

38 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Here is an excellent condition ANM2 in 30.06. R & L sideplates, top cover and  bottom cover have matching numbers. Gun was torch cut 1x near trunion end for import back in the day.The cut ran from the bottom to about 2/3 up the side Trunion was replaced and the side plate rewelded. Will consider high quality trades as partial payments.  Note: cradle in pic is not included and not available for sale. .303 caliber conversion available. Priced for quick sale. $19,000.00 .  Gun is on F4 in WI. Can ship on F3 with $200 tax fee extra. Price is reduced to 16,500. Gun is in excellent condition and refinished with manganese park..

I really want to sell this one. Great opportunity to add to your collection. Made with great attention to detail. functions perfectly, proper timing, headspace, just needs sights. Spare parts and cal conversion available. This is a beauty.

Rick Winters

CPS Co 07/SOT

Monticello, WI 53570

 

 

 

anm2  1.jpg

anm2  3.jpg

anm2  4.jpg

anm2 2.jpg

Edited by Tubegunner
price adjustment

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please post bright pictures of both L and R plates to show the weld repair.

Thanks!

Michael

Halo Mfg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Michael, I just found your post. The weld repair is on the right side plate only. It can be seen between trunion rivets 2 & 3  which run along the bottom edge of the plate. The inside area of the trunion was also in bad shape. it came to me this way so I replaced the trunion and had everything re-riveted. The rt side plate repair was already done. I'll see about getting picture if you are seriously interested. Thanks for looking

Rick 

CPS Co 07/SOT

Monticello, WI

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

bump to top

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I live in Minnesota a C&R only state.  Do you have the paper work that shows this is a C&R?  Just want to make sure.  If so I'm interested.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Tom H said:

I live in Minnesota a C&R only state.  Do you have the paper work that shows this is a C&R?  Just want to make sure.  If so I'm interested.

Free bump and interested in the same question I hope someone can confirm.   I believe a re-weld(torch cut to be imported means at least post-68) is not C&R eligible, as who ever re welded it manufactured it. Just because the Form 4 may list it as one thing doesnt mean it wasn't  made on a form 2 in 1985.   Would likely need a FOIA to know for sure it was manufactured at least 50yrs ago.

Edited by bigbore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

since you are a an sot and on a form 4 shouldn't this transfer on a form 3 to another sot?  got a copy of the form 4?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do not have any info on this gun, however I too live in Minnesota and there are “welded” C&R guns. They are usually De-Wats that have been deactivated. 
 

There were a lot of 1919’s that had some kind of cutting or welding on the right plate that came out of the movie prop house in CA that are C&R. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TonyBorglum said:

I do not have any info on this gun, however I too live in Minnesota and there are “welded” C&R guns. They are usually De-Wats that have been deactivated. 
 

There were a lot of 1919’s that had some kind of cutting or welding on the right plate that came out of the movie prop house in CA that are C&R. 

A torch cut receiver gun and a DEWAT are 2 completely different animals.  A DEWAT is a registered NFA item and remains a C&R when it's reactivated. Its not a new made machine gun.  When a receiver is torch cut its no longer a gun, it's just parts. When a cut receiver is welded together and registered it become a new gun and can only be a C&R if it's more than 50yrs old.  To prove the C&R status of this gun you need the FOIA paperwork to see the registration date.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bigbore said:

A torch cut receiver gun and a DEWAT are 2 completely different animals.  A DEWAT is a registered NFA item and remains a C&R when it's reactivated. Its not a new made machine gun.  When a receiver is torch cut its no longer a gun, it's just parts. When a cut receiver is welded together and registered it become a new gun and can only be a C&R if it's more than 50yrs old.  To prove the C&R status of this gun you need the FOIA paperwork to see the registration date.

Wouldnt it already show up on the registry?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, AndrewsArmoryllc said:

Wouldnt it already show up on the registry?

The FOIA request will give you the date it was entered into the registry. If it's after Dec 2, 1968 it's not an original C&R gun,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if the atf has already approved it as a c&R correct?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, AndrewsArmoryllc said:

if the atf has already approved it as a c&R correct?

No, that's not how it works.   There are many MGs out there being passed off intentionally, accidentally, or mistakenly as C&R guns that have been transferred as C&R guns - -that are NOT C&R guns.  If an MG has transferred as a C&R, that does not make it a C&R.  The date it was registered makes it a C&R. If you are concerned about a guns C&R status for value or legal reasons for possession in certain state you need a FOIA to get the original date.   The safest bet without a FOIA is a previously  torch cut gun is NOT a C&R for the reasons I stated in my previous post.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ah thanks for clarifying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, bigbore said:

No, that's not how it works.   There are many MGs out there being passed off intentionally, accidentally, or mistakenly as C&R guns that have been transferred as C&R guns - -that are NOT C&R guns.  If an MG has transferred as a C&R, that does not make it a C&R.  The date it was registered makes it a C&R. If you are concerned about a guns C&R status for value or legal reasons for possession in certain state you need a FOIA to get the original date.   The safest bet without a FOIA is a previously  torch cut gun is NOT a C&R for the reasons I stated in my previous post.

 

Some folks torch cut the side plate as a deactivation technique on certain "side plate" machine guns.  This was a fairly common process pre 1968 because torches were often more handy than welders.  These guns still qualify as registered C+R guns and can be welded back up / reactivated and retain their C+R status.  Just because it was torch cut has no bearing on it's registration or reactivation possibilities as a dewat/ C+R gun.

Generally speaking if a gun transferred recently to a C+R holder it's highly likely to be good to go as C+R.  While filing an FOIA is a great idea, it can take a year or more.  A look at the paperwork can pretty easily determine whether or not a gun is likely C+R in a case like this as well as putting in a call to atf.  HTH

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

Some folks torch cut the side plate as a deactivation technique on certain "side plate" machine guns.  This was a fairly common process pre 1968 because torches were often more handy than welders.  These guns still qualify as registered C+R guns and can be welded back up / reactivated and retain their C+R status.  Just because it was torch cut has no bearing on it's registration or reactivation possibilities as a dewat/ C+R gun.

Generally speaking if a gun transferred recently to a C+R holder it's highly likely to be good to go as C+R.  While filing an FOIA is a great idea, it can take a year or more.  A look at the paperwork can pretty easily determine whether or not a gun is likely C+R in a case like this as well as putting in a call to atf.  HTH

10 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

 

I'll disagree with most everything you just wrote.  I don't believe this is a C&R gun. I'm looking for a non C&R ANM2 to build into Stinger, so I'll offer $14K delivered.  The seller can message me if interested. 

Edited by bigbore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTT  This premium condition .30 cal needs a new home. You will not be disappointed :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can find no solid reason mandating this gun is not a C&R. It has the original right side plate which was torch cut. There are no manufacturers' markings aside from General Motors on the right side plate or anywhere else. The registration paperwork lists GM/BLC as the maker. It was manufactured  during WWII (or before) qualifying it as such in age. The last transfer was to myself a couple years ago. Then and now BATFE  is in overdrive verifying the original registration status of new transfers before approval in an effort to clean up the registry. IF this were not an original (C&R)  ATF would undoubtedly illustrate that discrepancy upon verification of the serial number. Transfer would have been held up until the paperwork matched their record and I would have had to make the change and resubmit the application. The change, of course, would involve the manufacturer. Instead it flew thru approval using the same information as used in the previous (to me) registration paperwork of 1991. The original manufacturer is listed as Browning Lipe Chapman Div. of General Motors on both the paperwork and the firearm.

BigBore, other than you say so, how can you claim it is not C&R? Based on what?

Rick W

CPS Co,  07/SOT

Monticello, WI

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tubegunner said:

 

BigBore, other than you say so, how can you claim it is not C&R? Based on what?

Rick W

CPS Co,  07/SOT

Monticello, WI

 

 

Torch cut and C&R 99% of the time means it was demilled not dewated.  The last ANM2 I owned was a colt, with the manufacturer listed on the Form as "Browning". Neither of which were the original manufacturer of the gun that turned out to not be C&R.  The listed manufacturer listed on a form doesn't prove anything.  The only way to know for sure is with a FOIA.

My biggest concern is this seems to be the same gun you listed a year ago and described the weld area as a repair to a cracked receiver.  You made no mention of a torch cut. ( I may be wrong, but crazy odds of a rare gun being welded in the same spot) If this is the same gun you said " I am not exactly sure the just how of this started in the registry "  then I'd lean more toward a post 68 registration

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BB, the gun came to me for a repair of a crack that developed in the side plate extending out from a lower rivet. A close inspection showed previous welding in the same spot. So for me,there was no slag, missing areas, pieces added  etc indicative of a torch cut.  The gun was fully assembled. Matter of fact all, receiver plates aside from the top rear one (riveted) have the identical serial number marking as on the rs plate. My purchase was from the estate of the previous owner. He dayd. And so is the owner before him.

So, if this was put together post 68 why is there no manufacturer marking besides GM engraved on the receiver? Secondly, if this transfers directly to a C&R in a C&R state that certainly is good enough and verifies it as a C&R.  

Therefore, I guarantee it will transfer as C&R. Payment is due in full prior to the paperwork submission. The funds will be held in escrow until xfer is approved. Should it not be approved for reasons of not being a C&R, The money will be cheerfully refunded. How's that?

Rick

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I spoke with a specialist at the NFA division this morning regarding transfer of this M2 into a C&R only state. The specialist informed me if the firearm is at least 50 years old and most certainly if listed on the C&R list, it would qualify to transfer into a C&R state directly to a C&R license holder. He added that C&R status is only contested where the firearm is not 50 years old. Of course, this M2 (all makers) is on the C&R list. It is also his suggestion to include a copy of the pertinent section of their C&R list (page 52). 

For all practical purposes, by that I mean ability to transfer into a C&R only state, this particular gun WOULD qualify as C&R. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"The specialist informed me if the firearm is at least 50 years old and most certainly if listed on the C&R list, it would qualify to transfer into a C&R state directly to a C&R license holder. "


That statement is only half true.  A 75yr old gun that wasn't entered into the registry until 1973 would not qualify as a C&R. 

IF a machinegun was torch cut for import and that happened post 1968, even if the original receiver parts were welded together to make the gun functional and registered it in 1973, it would not be a C&R gun no matter how "old" it is.  Also, keep in mind the maker registering a MG post '68 was on the honor system when it came to marking the guns.   Some shady dealers did not engrave their info and just used the markings on the receiver for the paperwork.    To be sure you need a FOIA to know the actual registration/age and correct the paperwork/registry as necessary.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BB, my brain is exploding talking about this. I totally get what you are saying. Let's agree to drop it, OK? The whole point of C&R is allow it to be transferred into a C&R state and/ or a C&R license holder. Right? I have been told by 2 sources in the NFA Branch that this particular firearm WILL TRANSFER under either condition. It would only hold up if it were contested due to its age. At that point, the Tech division would want to look at it for a complete investigation and make a determination. IMHO, who the fook cares as long as will actually transfer to the limited C&R only areas of the good ol USA?

Rick, OUT, end of the road, finished, had enough

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Tubegunner said:

BB, my brain is exploding talking about this. I totally get what you are saying. Let's agree to drop it, OK? The whole point of C&R is allow it to be transferred into a C&R state and/ or a C&R license holder. Right?,,,

No.  C&R MG's are worth more. If the gun were sold as a C&R and the status was lost (due to some investigation) then the value of the gun would drop.  Some folk only buy C&R's even though their state does not require it.

At this point as long as the gun is marketed as a C&R the seller might have some liability if the gun were to be sold as a C&R and latter discovered not to be a C&R.  Simple solution: Remove C&R claims from listing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What written documentation is given from ATF declaring a firearm as C&R? Would it be indicated on a transfer form? Do you receive a special certificate stating that it is C&R? How is it proven  other than someone claiming that it is? Does everyone with a so called C&R firearm have a FOIA historical investigation letter proving it meets all the requirements that you have laid out? Why exactly does this "vaunted" C&R status make a gun more valuable than on without?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


An original C&R gun is usually worth twice as much as gun registered after '68.  You can buy a Erb Vickers "plate" gun for about $20k.  A real C&R Vickers ground gun will cost close to $50K. 
There were many, many guns improperly registered and passed off as C&R between 68-86.  During that time span, NO ONE could have imagined the prices people are paying today.   Our gun gun culture inadvertently fucked us over with incorrect paperwork and that was compounded by the ATF as they jumbled the records even more. 

The possession in certain C&R only states isn't that big a deal. In 15yrs EVERY machine gun will be C&R eligible.  C&R eligible does not equal original.  Every buyer of an "original" C&R is going want a FOIA paper trail with those guns. IMO, send in the request today, you're going to need it eventually anyhow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This came in this mornings' email  from the Technology branch of ATF. I had previously inquired about the C&R status of this gun,

https://www.atf.gov/file/128116/download (ref: pg90 of the attached C&R list, excerpt below)

Section IV — NFA firearms classified as curios or relics, still subject to the 
provisions of 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, the National Firearms Act, and 18 U.S.C. 
Chapter 44, the Gun Control Act of 1968.

U.S. M2 Browning, cal. .30, machineguns (AN-M2), as mfd. by various U.S. Government 
contractors prior to and during World War II.

So, I have no doubt this gun would transfer as a C&R with no problems. That makes 2 divisions within the NFA branch saying that yes, it is a C&R gun.Unless it could be proven otherwise, it is a C&R firearm.

What would the costs to prove otherwise? Lets see, since the Technology and examiner divisions already say it is but you need to see original registration we'll have a legal inquiry. This will involve firearm experts as professional witnesses (paid of course), and a subpoena of ATF for their records. ATF will supply  someone from the Technology Branch. IF you even get them to cooperate, opening their records is another matter. As we all know the records are likely a mess and they sure don't want to supply more evidence of that.

What are the costs so far? I would posit thousands upon thousands of dollars from both parties. Far exceeding the guns value. Only a fool would pursue this matter further.

Tubegunner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Tubegunner said:

Why exactly does this "vaunted" C&R status make a gun more valuable than on without?

New guy here.

I believe C&R guns are the only MG's allowed in certain states. Tubegunner, you probably know more but Wisconsin, according to "Google" prohibits private MG's ownership unless they are C&R.  So that would seemingly drive up the price; ergo, if you live there and they approved the stamp and it's in it's original condition....

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/7/2021 at 4:59 PM, bigbore said:

"A 75yr old gun that wasn't entered into the registry until 1973 would not qualify as a C&R." This is very true. I have dealt with this a couple times once with an M2 carbine and another time with a RIA 1917 bmg. Both are on the C&R list but neither gun would qualify as they were both registered post 68 and the NFA branch goes by the date the forms were filed for the original registration. On another note just because a gun has transferred under one status previously is no guarantee it will do the same again. The transfers are being scrutinized more thoroughly than in the past in an attempt to clean up the records. I bought rewelded BREN gun at auction and though the gun had previously transferred as fully transferable when we submitted the E-File and the NFA branch researched the gun back to its original registration they admitted it had transferred improperly and they marked the registration form to denote that it was a post sample. I refused the gun and the seller took a hit on the value.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, riflejunky said:
On 7/7/2021 at 4:59 PM, bigbore said:

"A 75yr old gun that wasn't entered into the registry until 1973 would not qualify as a C&R." This is very true. I have dealt with this a couple times once with an M2 carbine and another time with a RIA 1917 bmg. Both are on the C&R list but neither gun would qualify as they were both registered post 68 and the NFA branch goes by the date the forms were filed for the original registration. On another note just because a gun has transferred under one status previously is no guarantee it will do the same again. The transfers are being scrutinized more thoroughly than in the past in an attempt to clean up the records. I bought rewelded BREN gun at auction and though the gun had previously transferred as fully transferable when we submitted the E-File and the NFA branch researched the gun back to its original registration they admitted it had transferred improperly and they marked the registration form to denote that it was a post sample. I refused the gun and the seller took a hit on the value.

Rifle Junky. You are correct in your response.

Adding, a FOIA should put the C&R issue to rest. If one is not satisfied with the FOIA response. They can appeal it. 
 

if one has the original paperwork that was entered into the NFRTR. That is the best way to go. Yet, sometimes that information was not entered into the NFRTR or the FOIA response does not contain that copy of the original form.

We have had two incidents with the NFA. That required us to show proof as to registered status. One was a Form 2 reactivation of an Amnesty submachine. Then we transferred it out on a Form 3. It was denied and stated that we needed a law letter from the transferee. Good thing that we had the original 68 Amnesty approved form. We faxed it in and it was approved in 15 minutes. They faxed back the approved Form 3.

Another Submachine was registered as manufactured in 1953 on a Form 2. It was a Police Ordnance Company Ingram M6. Since we had done the FOIA and had the copy of the redacted in part Form 2. We were able to get the weapon out on a C&R approved Form 4 to the transferee. 
 

The weapon was listed in the NFRTR as a Form 2 registration and that’s it. By providing proof and photos to the technology Branch. The information in the NFRTR was corrected.

The NFA Branch is not always correct and there a many mistakes made in entering information into the NFRTR.

It’s a nice weapon. But, if it’s advertised as a C&R, one cannot go on previous transfers. If it was approved during the 68 Amnesty or prior. Then it’s a C&R.

Prior to the 68 Amnesty, NFA weapons were either, approved on a Form 1 or Imported on a Form 6.
 

The military contractors, did not Form 2 the newly manufactured weapons during WWII.

Good luck…

 

David

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Varminter said:

New guy here.

I believe C&R guns are the only MG's allowed in certain states. Tubegunner, you probably know more but Wisconsin, according to "Google" prohibits private MG's ownership unless they are C&R.  So that would seemingly drive up the price; ergo, if you live there and they approved the stamp and it's in it's original condition....

 

 

You're thinking of MN, WI allows all MGs with a letter from any Chief of Police or Sheriff stating that the owner is allowed to own MGs in WI.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Varminter, when saying,  "vaunted" C&R status , I was being sarcastic. The price I am asking is not in the stratosphere of "vaunted C&R" prices. Also, WI is not C&R only but we do have an oddball reg on "pistol caliber" only. Fortunately for us, all calibers do seem to transfer.

RJ, did the M2 or RIA 1917 have additional manufacturer markings??  I assume they didn't. All I can say is an examiner, an examiner specialist and the Technology branch were provided the serial number when I made the inquiries. Is there some kind of dusty ledger in a hidden vault at NFA that has to be cracked open to research the history of a firearm or something?  You really think they do more than check the data base(s)  using a serial number search for a simple transfer? Then you know more than I do. How can anyone claim C&R "status" then? Where is it written when it comes time to buy? Do all these guns have FOIA  papers? I'm getting the sense from you and a few others everybody is a liar when it comes to claiming C&R- unless they have the all important FOIA papers that each and every C&R owner supposedly has. And that 2 branches at ATF are lying to me because they want to mess with me. This is ridiculous.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tubegunner said:

Varminter, when saying,  "vaunted" C&R status , I was being sarcastic. The price I am asking is not in the stratosphere of "vaunted C&R" prices. Also, WI is not C&R only but we do have an oddball reg on "pistol caliber" only. Fortunately for us, all calibers do seem to transfer.

RJ, did the M2 or RIA 1917 have additional manufacturer markings??  I assume they didn't. All I can say is an examiner, an examiner specialist and the Technology branch were provided the serial number when I made the inquiries. Is there some kind of dusty ledger in a hidden vault at NFA that has to be cracked open to research the history of a firearm or something?  You really think they do more than check the data base(s)  using a serial number search for a simple transfer? Then you know more than I do. How can anyone claim C&R "status" then? Where is it written when it comes time to buy? Do all these guns have FOIA  papers? I'm getting the sense from you and a few others everybody is a liar when it comes to claiming C&R- unless they have the all important FOIA papers that each and every C&R owner supposedly has. And that 2 branches at ATF are lying to me because they want to mess with me. This is ridiculous.

 

Some of us have had experience in this process. It does happen. This is just information and not finger pointing. 
 

We purchased a M2HB 50 cal MG. It was manufactured by Savage, as listed on the weapon.

We did a FOIA and verified it was a1968 Amnesty registered weapon. It is listed as a Browning in the NFRTR. There are lots of variations of what information is listed as the model on the forms.

We have a verified C&R Model Beretta 38/42 subgun. On the original registration paperwork.

It is listed as an MP40 and the caliber is listed as 7mm. It is neither.

This information is for informational purposes and it is not a directive aimed at you…

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tubegunner said:

Varminter, when saying,  "vaunted" C&R status , I was being sarcastic. The price I am asking is not in the stratosphere of "vaunted C&R" prices. Also, WI is not C&R only but we do have an oddball reg on "pistol caliber" only. Fortunately for us, all calibers do seem to transfer.

RJ, did the M2 or RIA 1917 have additional manufacturer markings??  I assume they didn't. All I can say is an examiner, an examiner specialist and the Technology branch were provided the serial number when I made the inquiries. Is there some kind of dusty ledger in a hidden vault at NFA that has to be cracked open to research the history of a firearm or something?  You really think they do more than check the data base(s)  using a serial number search for a simple transfer? Then you know more than I do. How can anyone claim C&R "status" then? Where is it written when it comes time to buy? Do all these guns have FOIA  papers? I'm getting the sense from you and a few others everybody is a liar when it comes to claiming C&R- unless they have the all important FOIA papers that each and every C&R owner supposedly has. And that 2 branches at ATF are lying to me because they want to mess with me. This is ridiculous.

 

The m2 is an Inland in the correct serial number range and has no additional marks. The 1917 had the name of a museum engraved on the bottom. Speculation on the 1917 was that it was scrapped without being properly demilled and subsequently registered on a form 2. I don’t know because I passed on it. I do however have the M2 and have been told by atf if I send it to them for inspection it may qualify but it has to be inspected and that may take a year and a half or so to get the gun back. I am just relaying my first hand experiences. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, riflejunky said:

The m2 is an Inland in the correct serial number range and has no additional marks. The 1917 had the name of a museum engraved on the bottom. Speculation on the 1917 was that it was scrapped without being properly demilled and subsequently registered on a form 2. I don’t know because I passed on it. I do however have the M2 and have been told by atf if I send it to them for inspection it may qualify but it has to be inspected and that may take a year and a half or so to get the gun back. I am just relaying my first hand experiences. 

An inspection has nothing to do with any of this.  The original date of registration has to be over 50 years or be a specific gun that was petitioned to be on the list if under 50 YO.  

Jim Bob who's uncle had an M2 buried in the yard and who decided to manufacture an M2  with Jim Bob as the manufacturer/maker in 1985 does not qualify as C+R.   Yes, go ahead and send it in, ATF will determine it was an original inland M2 that was untouched....and also unregistered in the 1968 amnesty and they will feel free to keep the illegally registered, fake re-manufactured gun.  There are a substantial number of guns done this way that appear original but have lets say have "registration issues".   The entire point of Bigbore's question is do you have proof (previous FOIA forms showing registration pre 1968) or at least previous knowledge that this has transferred previously to an out of state C+R holder.  The seller has nothing.  A verbal or even two from what might be an examiner counts for nothing.  There needs to be something in writing.  By the response posted it's fairly obvious whomever responded from ATF in the email couldn't even comprehend the question.   The fact that it had been partially demilled (not deactivated) at one time further suggests post 1968 registration and is not in the sellers favor. 

Guns were never torch cut for importation back in the day.  Torch cut refinished guns are rarely described as "excellent" ... buyer beware.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

An inspection has nothing to do with any of this.  The original date of registration has to be over 50 years or be a specific gun that was petitioned to be on the list if under 50 YO.  

Jim Bob who's uncle had an M2 buried in the yard and who decided to manufacture an M2  with Jim Bob as the manufacturer/maker in 1985 does not qualify as C+R.   Yes, go ahead and send it in, ATF will determine it was an original inland M2 that was untouched....and also unregistered in the 1968 amnesty and they will feel free to keep the illegally registered, fake re-manufactured gun.  There are a substantial number of guns done this way that appear original but have lets say have "registration issues".   The entire point of Bigbore's question is do you have proof (previous FOIA forms showing registration pre 1968) or at least previous knowledge that this has transferred previously to an out of state C+R holder.  The seller has nothing.  A verbal or even two from what might be an examiner counts for nothing.  There needs to be something in writing.  By the response posted it's fairly obvious whomever responded from ATF in the email couldn't even comprehend the question.   The fact that it had been partially demilled (not deactivated) at one time further suggests post 1968 registration and is not in the sellers favor. 

Guns were never torch cut for importation back in the day.  Torch cut refinished guns are rarely described as "excellent" ... buyer beware.

Are you aware of guns for which the following has been an issue?  - "Yes, go ahead and send it in, ATF will determine it was an original inland M2 that was untouched....and also unregistered in the 1968 amnesty and they will feel free to keep the illegally registered, fake re-manufactured gun." 

Edited by riflejunky
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, riflejunky said:

Are you aware of guns for which the following has been an issue?  - "Yes, go ahead and send it in, ATF will determine it was an original inland M2 that was untouched....and also unregistered in the 1968 amnesty and they will feel free to keep the illegally registered, fake re-manufactured gun." 

For your M2  in his example to have been legally registered it would have had to have been cut in half and welded back together.  *IF ATF got a hold of your M2 and X-Rayed it to verify it was indeed welded together, but found no evidence in said X-RAY, you could have a bad day.

As this relates to the gun listed for sale the welded right side plate does not bring into question the guns registration, but is a valid reason to question its C&R status.  

https://www.foia.gov/    It's FREE  and will settle everything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like there has been sufficient discussion of this item for sale.  Let's let it go its course now as far as any sale opportunity, and if discussion needs to continue, let's take it to the discussion board.

Thanks,

David

3 people like this

National Rifle Association
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
Ohio Gun Collectors Association
Thompson Collectors Association
Carbine Club
Garand Collectors Association
International Ammunition Association
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
Eagle Scout, and Member of NESA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.