Tubegunner

WTS: General Motors, div. (BLC) ANM2 .30, C&R

Location: WI

22 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Here is an excellent condition ANM2 in 30.06. R & L sideplates, top cover and  bottom cover have matching numbers. Gun was torch cut 1x near trunion end for import back in the day.The cut ran from the bottom to about 2/3 up the side Trunion was replaced and the side plate rewelded. Will consider high quality trades as partial payments.  Note: cradle in pic is not included and not available for sale. .303 caliber conversion available. Priced for quick sale. $19,000.00 .  Gun is on F4 in WI. Can ship on F3 with $200 tax fee extra. Price is reduced to 16,500. Gun is in excellent condition and refinished with manganese park..

I really want to sell this one. Great opportunity to add to your collection. Made with great attention to detail. functions perfectly, proper timing, headspace, just needs sights. Spare parts and cal conversion available. This is a beauty.

Rick Winters

CPS Co 07/SOT

Monticello, WI 53570

 

 

 

anm2  1.jpg

anm2  3.jpg

anm2  4.jpg

anm2 2.jpg

Edited by Tubegunner
price adjustment

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Please post bright pictures of both L and R plates to show the weld repair.

Thanks!

Michael

Halo Mfg

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Hi Michael, I just found your post. The weld repair is on the right side plate only. It can be seen between trunion rivets 2 & 3  which run along the bottom edge of the plate. The inside area of the trunion was also in bad shape. it came to me this way so I replaced the trunion and had everything re-riveted. The rt side plate repair was already done. I'll see about getting picture if you are seriously interested. Thanks for looking

Rick 

CPS Co 07/SOT

Monticello, WI

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bump to top

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I live in Minnesota a C&R only state.  Do you have the paper work that shows this is a C&R?  Just want to make sure.  If so I'm interested.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Tom H said:

I live in Minnesota a C&R only state.  Do you have the paper work that shows this is a C&R?  Just want to make sure.  If so I'm interested.

Free bump and interested in the same question I hope someone can confirm.   I believe a re-weld(torch cut to be imported means at least post-68) is not C&R eligible, as who ever re welded it manufactured it. Just because the Form 4 may list it as one thing doesnt mean it wasn't  made on a form 2 in 1985.   Would likely need a FOIA to know for sure it was manufactured at least 50yrs ago.

Edited by bigbore

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since you are a an sot and on a form 4 shouldn't this transfer on a form 3 to another sot?  got a copy of the form 4?

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I do not have any info on this gun, however I too live in Minnesota and there are “welded” C&R guns. They are usually De-Wats that have been deactivated. 
 

There were a lot of 1919’s that had some kind of cutting or welding on the right plate that came out of the movie prop house in CA that are C&R. 

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3 hours ago, TonyBorglum said:

I do not have any info on this gun, however I too live in Minnesota and there are “welded” C&R guns. They are usually De-Wats that have been deactivated. 
 

There were a lot of 1919’s that had some kind of cutting or welding on the right plate that came out of the movie prop house in CA that are C&R. 

A torch cut receiver gun and a DEWAT are 2 completely different animals.  A DEWAT is a registered NFA item and remains a C&R when it's reactivated. Its not a new made machine gun.  When a receiver is torch cut its no longer a gun, it's just parts. When a cut receiver is welded together and registered it become a new gun and can only be a C&R if it's more than 50yrs old.  To prove the C&R status of this gun you need the FOIA paperwork to see the registration date.

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1 hour ago, bigbore said:

A torch cut receiver gun and a DEWAT are 2 completely different animals.  A DEWAT is a registered NFA item and remains a C&R when it's reactivated. Its not a new made machine gun.  When a receiver is torch cut its no longer a gun, it's just parts. When a cut receiver is welded together and registered it become a new gun and can only be a C&R if it's more than 50yrs old.  To prove the C&R status of this gun you need the FOIA paperwork to see the registration date.

Wouldnt it already show up on the registry?

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24 minutes ago, AndrewsArmoryllc said:

Wouldnt it already show up on the registry?

The FOIA request will give you the date it was entered into the registry. If it's after Dec 2, 1968 it's not an original C&R gun,

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if the atf has already approved it as a c&R correct?

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3 minutes ago, AndrewsArmoryllc said:

if the atf has already approved it as a c&R correct?

No, that's not how it works.   There are many MGs out there being passed off intentionally, accidentally, or mistakenly as C&R guns that have been transferred as C&R guns - -that are NOT C&R guns.  If an MG has transferred as a C&R, that does not make it a C&R.  The date it was registered makes it a C&R. If you are concerned about a guns C&R status for value or legal reasons for possession in certain state you need a FOIA to get the original date.   The safest bet without a FOIA is a previously  torch cut gun is NOT a C&R for the reasons I stated in my previous post.

 

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ah thanks for clarifying.

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24 minutes ago, bigbore said:

No, that's not how it works.   There are many MGs out there being passed off intentionally, accidentally, or mistakenly as C&R guns that have been transferred as C&R guns - -that are NOT C&R guns.  If an MG has transferred as a C&R, that does not make it a C&R.  The date it was registered makes it a C&R. If you are concerned about a guns C&R status for value or legal reasons for possession in certain state you need a FOIA to get the original date.   The safest bet without a FOIA is a previously  torch cut gun is NOT a C&R for the reasons I stated in my previous post.

 

Some folks torch cut the side plate as a deactivation technique on certain "side plate" machine guns.  This was a fairly common process pre 1968 because torches were often more handy than welders.  These guns still qualify as registered C+R guns and can be welded back up / reactivated and retain their C+R status.  Just because it was torch cut has no bearing on it's registration or reactivation possibilities as a dewat/ C+R gun.

Generally speaking if a gun transferred recently to a C+R holder it's highly likely to be good to go as C+R.  While filing an FOIA is a great idea, it can take a year or more.  A look at the paperwork can pretty easily determine whether or not a gun is likely C+R in a case like this as well as putting in a call to atf.  HTH

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

Some folks torch cut the side plate as a deactivation technique on certain "side plate" machine guns.  This was a fairly common process pre 1968 because torches were often more handy than welders.  These guns still qualify as registered C+R guns and can be welded back up / reactivated and retain their C+R status.  Just because it was torch cut has no bearing on it's registration or reactivation possibilities as a dewat/ C+R gun.

Generally speaking if a gun transferred recently to a C+R holder it's highly likely to be good to go as C+R.  While filing an FOIA is a great idea, it can take a year or more.  A look at the paperwork can pretty easily determine whether or not a gun is likely C+R in a case like this as well as putting in a call to atf.  HTH

10 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

 

I'll disagree with most everything you just wrote.  I don't believe this is a C&R gun. I'm looking for a non C&R ANM2 to build into Stinger, so I'll offer $14K delivered.  The seller can message me if interested. 

Edited by bigbore

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BTT  This premium condition .30 cal needs a new home. You will not be disappointed :) 

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I can find no solid reason mandating this gun is not a C&R. It has the original right side plate which was torch cut. There are no manufacturers' markings aside from General Motors on the right side plate or anywhere else. The registration paperwork lists GM/BLC as the maker. It was manufactured  during WWII (or before) qualifying it as such in age. The last transfer was to myself a couple years ago. Then and now BATFE  is in overdrive verifying the original registration status of new transfers before approval in an effort to clean up the registry. IF this were not an original (C&R)  ATF would undoubtedly illustrate that discrepancy upon verification of the serial number. Transfer would have been held up until the paperwork matched their record and I would have had to make the change and resubmit the application. The change, of course, would involve the manufacturer. Instead it flew thru approval using the same information as used in the previous (to me) registration paperwork of 1991. The original manufacturer is listed as Browning Lipe Chapman Div. of General Motors on both the paperwork and the firearm.

BigBore, other than you say so, how can you claim it is not C&R? Based on what?

Rick W

CPS Co,  07/SOT

Monticello, WI

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tubegunner said:

 

BigBore, other than you say so, how can you claim it is not C&R? Based on what?

Rick W

CPS Co,  07/SOT

Monticello, WI

 

 

Torch cut and C&R 99% of the time means it was demilled not dewated.  The last ANM2 I owned was a colt, with the manufacturer listed on the Form as "Browning". Neither of which were the original manufacturer of the gun that turned out to not be C&R.  The listed manufacturer listed on a form doesn't prove anything.  The only way to know for sure is with a FOIA.

My biggest concern is this seems to be the same gun you listed a year ago and described the weld area as a repair to a cracked receiver.  You made no mention of a torch cut. ( I may be wrong, but crazy odds of a rare gun being welded in the same spot) If this is the same gun you said " I am not exactly sure the just how of this started in the registry "  then I'd lean more toward a post 68 registration

 

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BB, the gun came to me for a repair of a crack that developed in the side plate extending out from a lower rivet. A close inspection showed previous welding in the same spot. So for me,there was no slag, missing areas, pieces added  etc indicative of a torch cut.  The gun was fully assembled. Matter of fact all, receiver plates aside from the top rear one (riveted) have the identical serial number marking as on the rs plate. My purchase was from the estate of the previous owner. He dayd. And so is the owner before him.

So, if this was put together post 68 why is there no manufacturer marking besides GM engraved on the receiver? Secondly, if this transfers directly to a C&R in a C&R state that certainly is good enough and verifies it as a C&R.  

Therefore, I guarantee it will transfer as C&R. Payment is due in full prior to the paperwork submission. The funds will be held in escrow until xfer is approved. Should it not be approved for reasons of not being a C&R, The money will be cheerfully refunded. How's that?

Rick

 

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I spoke with a specialist at the NFA division this morning regarding transfer of this M2 into a C&R only state. The specialist informed me if the firearm is at least 50 years old and most certainly if listed on the C&R list, it would qualify to transfer into a C&R state directly to a C&R license holder. He added that C&R status is only contested where the firearm is not 50 years old. Of course, this M2 (all makers) is on the C&R list. It is also his suggestion to include a copy of the pertinent section of their C&R list (page 52). 

For all practical purposes, by that I mean ability to transfer into a C&R only state, this particular gun WOULD qualify as C&R. 

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"The specialist informed me if the firearm is at least 50 years old and most certainly if listed on the C&R list, it would qualify to transfer into a C&R state directly to a C&R license holder. "


That statement is only half true.  A 75yr old gun that wasn't entered into the registry until 1973 would not qualify as a C&R. 

IF a machinegun was torch cut for import and that happened post 1968, even if the original receiver parts were welded together to make the gun functional and registered it in 1973, it would not be a C&R gun no matter how "old" it is.  Also, keep in mind the maker registering a MG post '68 was on the honor system when it came to marking the guns.   Some shady dealers did not engrave their info and just used the markings on the receiver for the paperwork.    To be sure you need a FOIA to know the actual registration/age and correct the paperwork/registry as necessary.

 

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