Got Uzi Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 Picked this gun up yesterday and from the looks of it, the gun was hardly used....well I’ve figured out why I think..... The gun will not go into battery when dropping the bolt on a round being fed out of a belt. Here is what I’m using- Wolf 55gr steel case new M27 SAW links from AmmuntionStore.com Ive had the gun apart all day going over the little fine details as I’ve found a few burrs and high spots where the finish was pretty thick causing bolt drag. I’ve addressed these issues and that’s all. That being said-I’ve discovered that the bolt assembly is stopping at the exact same spot each time and as soon as I release the feed mechanism, the bolt goes home. The gun is a BPP but it has a MM23E feed box (which I found odd) There is something binding up the gun when it tries to cycle the feed wheel in the feed box assembly. I was able to get the gun to cycle 3 rounds flawlessly with no links, just placing the rounds on the feed wheel and then cycling the bolt. Can someone point out what is going on and what I’m missing? At this point it seems like the bolt is hanging up on the links but I can’t tell how or where. Can the links be too large or the radius goes around too far and comes up through the feed way cover? I’ve wanted one of these guns for a long time and now that I got one I’m pulling my hair out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 IIRC my buddy had issues with his MM23 similar. Turns out it would only run brass ammo and steel case would not feed and the gun was finicky even with some brass. Are you using the laquer coated or the slippy coated cases (which I don't think have been around for a while, but I'm no Woof expert?)? He ended up getting rid of it, since he is neither a gunsmith nor a tinkerer. Lots of guys here have experience with the 23 system and I'm sure will offer better advice. My only time is on my 21e. 223 beltfeds have all sorts of issues. I recently redesigned and MGA SAW to work. So far the shrike has been dependable and trouble free, but I did build my own feedway parts for it which I think helped a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted February 22, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 It’s non coated wolf. I was talking to a fellow 23EK owner last night and we might have narrowed it down-the lifter/detente has been ground to hell causing the round to “roll” out of position which is in turn allowing the link to come up through the top cover. The bolt is hanging up on the link so this is a good place to start working. Gonna call and order said part today and see what happens then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted February 22, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 Mine is marked in red, my buddies is marked in blue-see the difference. I got a feeling this is a lot of the issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
har1690 Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 (edited) I'm sure a quick call to Carlos or MM would help. I just looked at my belt feed (MM) unit and it looks just like yours (in red) and have zero issues. 7k rounds of .223 Good luck, keep us posted. Edited February 22, 2021 by har1690 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted February 22, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 Called and left a voicemail with Mike since it’s his feed mec. I’m also wondering if I could have a bent feed cover that’s allowing the link to sit higher in the slot. If it’s bent-it could allow the slot to have become wider, allowing more of the link/round combo to sit protrude out. Just a thought on it. I’m sure I’ll get this figured out, but I just really really want to light up some expensive .223/5.56 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forkauto Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 One other thing I would recommend. When speaking with Mike, he always told me to use 62grain M855 only as the belt guns need correct/hot ammo. He said he always had issues with 55 grain and steel case ammo, I have an HK23E and was at a shoot last year and one of the guys had a MM gun. He was having issues, he was running 55 grain ammo and we used a belt of mine and it ran great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted February 22, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 This might be a better way to put my issues per what I sent Mike Feed mec out of the gun-functions fine Feed mec on bench-functions fine Feed mec in gun/no ammo-functions fine Feed mec in gun/3 rounds set on wheel-functions fine Feed mec in gun/linked ammo, gun locks up on forward stroke in the exact same point each time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylorwso Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 5 hours ago, forkauto said: One other thing I would recommend. When speaking with Mike, he always told me to use 62grain M855 only as the belt guns need correct/hot ammo. He said he always had issues with 55 grain and steel case ammo, I have an HK23E and was at a shoot last year and one of the guys had a MM gun. He was having issues, he was running 55 grain ammo and we used a belt of mine and it ran great. Thats because he feed mech sucks, he will blame ammo, links, etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylorwso Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Got Uzi said: This might be a better way to put my issues per what I sent Mike Feed mec out of the gun-functions fine Feed mec on bench-functions fine Feed mec in gun/no ammo-functions fine Feed mec in gun/3 rounds set on wheel-functions fine Feed mec in gun/linked ammo, gun locks up on forward stroke in the exact same point each time He will blame everything on the BBP gun, doubtfull he'll help u Edited February 22, 2021 by taylorwso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylorwso Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 6 hours ago, Got Uzi said: Called and left a voicemail with Mike since it’s his feed mec. I’m also wondering if I could have a bent feed cover that’s allowing the link to sit higher in the slot. If it’s bent-it could allow the slot to have become wider, allowing more of the link/round combo to sit protrude out. Just a thought on it. I’m sure I’ll get this figured out, but I just really really want to light up some expensive .223/5.56 Go read this https://www.hkpro.com/threads/bpp23ek-2-5-year-range-report.215419/ see if you have any of the same problems. I probably have more time fixing/breaking parts than most people. I've also help a lot of people with theirs, Im not a expert but I can make it work. before any says anymore about wolf/steel, it will run just fine in a 23eK, saw or 21e with 23e feed mech. The MM feed mech and BPP gun are prob the worst 2 combos to use. Since its was without a BPP mech, I bet somebody has already been fucking with this gun,and just got rid of it. I have found MM feed mech wont run/fit in a real 23e but BPPs do. I also know that a BPP will runa a HK feed mech both 21 and 23 Are you running f/a? If so was the bolt/carrier fitted to the trip? if not the trip will bind. What bolt carrier/bolt? look at the top of the feed mech/bullet feed on the right side, is it hitting the carrier? My BPP cartridge guide had to be taken down/ sanded to clear the carrier- couple thousanths. Look at the 4-5th picture right under the calipers on the right side you can see the shiny metal. See if it will charge w/o the feed mech but with the trigger pack. if it binds it could be the 23e ejector on the left with not enough clearance (trigger pack not fitted correclty) or the trip if using f/a. if it charges with the trigger pack and w/o the mech see if it will close w/o ammo. If not see where its hanging up. Is there any damage to the rounds being fed, or is it not getting that far. IM me and we can talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylorwso Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 6 hours ago, Got Uzi said: Called and left a voicemail with Mike since it’s his feed mec. I’m also wondering if I could have a bent feed cover that’s allowing the link to sit higher in the slot. If it’s bent-it could allow the slot to have become wider, allowing more of the link/round combo to sit protrude out. Just a thought on it. I’m sure I’ll get this figured out, but I just really really want to light up some expensive .223/5.56 dont fucking do that until you know whats wrong. That guide is hardened and if you bend/grind it you'll fuck it up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylorwso Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 10 hours ago, Got Uzi said: Mine is marked in red, my buddies is marked in blue-see the difference. I got a feeling this is a lot of the issue yours looks more correct that the canoe on the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forkauto Posted February 23, 2021 Report Share Posted February 23, 2021 17 hours ago, taylorwso said: Thats because he feed mech sucks, he will blame ammo, links, etc I cant disagree with that. Now I have a actual HK 23E/21E combo built by Dyer and it runs like a Timex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted February 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2021 (edited) I’m closer to the end result. Found the trunion had a tight spot where the bolt was hanging up. I added just enough clearance where the bolt head passes through from the rails to the trunion. Now that I have it cycling and firing (test fired it finally) A new issue has come to my attention that I wouldnt have known until it was firing-the plunger that rides in the feed advance slot on the bottom of the bolt carrier is popping out after 2-3 rounds. Someone ground on it and it’s now short and not staying in the slot. Easy enough fix as I’ll be picking up a piece of drill rod tomorrow at work. One step closer to a fully functional weapon. Edited February 24, 2021 by Got Uzi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted February 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 https://youtube.com/shorts/w0aoL9XHu7Y Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted February 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 It’s been a long week of working on this gun but it was worth it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
har1690 Posted February 27, 2021 Report Share Posted February 27, 2021 Glad to hear you got the gun running but really buying 5.56 in 2021? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted February 27, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2021 I’ll be running what I bought in 2018/2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shattered Posted March 7, 2021 Report Share Posted March 7, 2021 I have found that you need 5.56 or 223 that will produce at least 3000 FPS. Also oil the shit out of the feed mech and carrier/bolt AND keep the oil OUT of the chamber. Mine (M&M) runs just about any brand ammo, any weight... as long as it’s over 3000 FPS. Brass, steel, 55gr, 62 gr no big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted March 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2021 When I put it all together for the test fire-I costed the rails and carrier with a good tacky red grease. I like running grease over oil as it doesn’t run off when hot and it makes things nicer to clean. It also seemed to help in the break in process. Ill be sure to check the velocity on what I feed it. Thanks for the tip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhouston8 Posted March 8, 2021 Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 Man you are prob screwed for life with that gun dude. A BPP gun with MM parts added? Clearly the gun wasnt running right as it originally came from BPP. Adding a MM feed mech (which MM doesnt supply to BPP as far as I know) was a last ditch effort on that gun. You have bigger issues than the feed mech. Im thinking. Start with the gun builder....Carlos at BPP for service on it. Get a BPP feed mech in it...then you have one throat to choke. If I were Mike I wouldnt touch any of that personally. It;s gonna be a tar baby. And yes I have a bunch of MM guns including a MM233/21e and all the fixings ...and its heavy volume blaster of mine. I have one of the earliest gen MM23e...improvements certainly have been made over the many years. I bet there's 20x as many MM 23e's out there vs BPP 23e.... So if you have a BPP you are by definition gonna have a MUCH smaller pool of user resources and service to choose from. Hate to break that to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted March 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 (edited) Well at this point I have it working well so I’m gonna keep running it. It’s funny how much hate there is with guys who have BPP guns vs MM guns. Being a machinist and gunsmith means I’m somewhat smart enough to work on one of these....clearance is clearance and sorry to sound arragant but BPP and MM ain’t the only people smart enough to work on these things. Btw-you did see the YouTube video I posted of the gun running? Edited March 8, 2021 by Got Uzi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhouston8 Posted March 8, 2021 Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 ^^ No...It's more that I've been thru this type of goat rope and have seen many others as well. Thats all. And its true....mixing and matching parts from 2 beltfed clone builders is a risky proposition. That's all. Hks are unique , beltfeds are much more complex than mag fed of course. Most of us don't have your mad skillz or desire to be filing down parts on custom build guns that cost >$12k . I want the best for you and your gun. I'm GLAD its running. I hope it runs 100% here on out and that you fixed whatever out of spec problem you may have had. Bravo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x50plt Posted March 8, 2021 Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 A few years ago I was at Big Sandy, a guy from Vegas had a BPP hk23e that was not feeding. I took my mm23 feed Mech and stuck it on his and it ran like the sewing machine. My point is that you should be able to switch parts from one gun to another. I realize that gives the builders somebody else to point the finger at, which is not really what you want. It can get very frustrating sending these guns back and forth to builders and not having them fixed correctly I understand why GOT UZI took it upon himself to make it run. And run it does. Good Job. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftiv Posted March 8, 2021 Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 I have 4 HK guns. Real HK94 and 3 clones, MM23, 223 clone and 308 clone. None of them interchange. the parts are slightly different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryo Posted March 9, 2021 Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 I'm like Uzi. If I can learn to do it myself.. I will. Done some stuff to make things work that even amazes myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylorwso Posted March 9, 2021 Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, x50plt said: \My point is that you should be able to switch parts from one gun to another. I realize that gives the builders somebody else to point the finger at, which is not really what you want. I they should, but they dont. ALL clone makers build guns to their spec, not to HK spec. From CAI grinding bolts, to heat treat of parts, to final fit and finish. Some parts will switch, sometimes, others never will. 15 hours ago, x50plt said: A few years ago I was at Big Sandy, a guy from Vegas had a BPP hk23e that was not feeding. I took my mm23 feed Mech and stuck it on his and it ran like the sewing machine. I've seen MM feed mech NOT fit on a spec 23e, a BPP fit on a hk23E and not run, and a HK feed mech in a MM gun and not run. The only thing Ive seen switch and run all the time are real HK parts. As I said clones should be treated as one offs. Edited March 9, 2021 by taylorwso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylorwso Posted March 9, 2021 Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 17 hours ago, Got Uzi said: Well at this point I have it working well so I’m gonna keep running it. It’s funny how much hate there is with guys who have BPP guns vs MM guns. Its not hate between the two, its hate for them both. Spending 10K plus on a gun that wont run puts a lot of people off. After dealing with a BPP gun for years I know guys on both sides that are still pissed, some still SOL. You are lucky, you fixed a problem which should have never been in the first place. Some people still have 10K paperweight that wont work. BTW for all those reading Got Uzi said he had to clearance a rail on the BPP to get the bolt to slide into the trunion. IE it was getting hung up and the rollers were hitting the rails before the truinion locking the gun up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted March 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2021 It was more the bolt head itself on the trunion. Feeler gauges would clear the roller but not the bolt head. It was a combination of a lot of things but the end result was the trunion needed more clearance to allow the bolt to fit inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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