Transfer Difficulty need opinion

[Maximvickers]

Hello, I am seeking opinion on the following scenario. I have collect and shot MGs since the late 80s. However over the last 7-8 years have kind of lost interest and started selling off my small collection. Unfortunately my local dealer who I dealt with all these years had passed away. So a Vickers that I sold to a good fellow down in Ga who wanted the gun transferred to his dealer in Ga. I had to find a new dealer to do the transfer. I found someone in another town.

After contacting this business I started the transfer to them. This took a year. The gun and transfer form were delivered to this dealer by the middle of September. I was told after the delivery that the business had a new owner and thus a new FFL. They said they tried to electronically transfer from their old FFL to the new one. They said they couldn't do it electronically and had to go the snail mail and paper route. This has now been 2 months and when I last asked for an update I received no response. Is this a plausible scenario? The buyer has paid for the gun and I just want the transfer done to his dealer. Opinions? I don't want to appear accusatory but seems like a long time for transfer between old and new FFL numbers.

[riflejunky]

Why don’t you transfer it directly to the dealer in Georgia? What part of Georgia if you don’t mind me asking?

[Maximvickers]

Riflejunky, this was at the request of the buyers dealer. Not really sure why. Just trying to comply with the request.

 

 

[riflejunky]

Not sure why the dealer would request this approach. In the past I have bought many out of state guns from individuals and we have always done the first transfer from the out of state individual to our instate FFL/SOT in Georgia. Generally takes about 3 to 4 months for the first transfer. Sounds like you are getting poor instructions from your buyers dealer. 

[Maximvickers]

Again I am not sure either. I suggested transferring to Ga dealer from myself but they seemed to not want to do this. Do you have an opinion on the Ky dealer trying to transfer to themselves due to old to new FFL? How long should this really take?

[riflejunky]

Dealer to dealer should be 3-4 months with paper form. If the gun is currently registered to the previous FFL then you should just submit the new paperwork with the Georgia dealers info and let it transfer directly to them. Only concern would be that if the FFL that it transferred to in your home state is no longer valid you may have to use a second form 4. I would go to the atf website and see if it shows the FFL number of the shop as current. If so I would think you could use a form three. Seems like a second instate transfer is a waste of time. 

[Ryo]

Just checking. 

Your not a FFL.  

The transfer of the MG has been approved from to the old dealer business FFL and now they want to transfer from the old FFL to the new FFL?

Assuming the old FFL license is valid still and they are transferring it to the new one, typical times is less than a week (sometimes same day) if on a eForm 3. If by mail then it was a month on a Form 3 paper.. But not sure if that still is the case.  2 months seems strange. 

 

Do they have your MG? 

Have you checked the FFL license and cross verify to address? 

[MG08]

The biggest problem with this is the $200 cost and time added by the Transfer to your dealer first.  It could have gone direct from you on a form 4 to the GA dealer, and saved one entire form 4 transfer. If the Buyer is ok with that, don't sweat it it is his problem. Unless you are left holding the pen to write the check.  I would certainly letthe buyer know it is not your issue.  some "dealers" are not really up on the ins and outs of the business.

[Maximvickers]

2 hours ago, Ryo said:

Just checking. 

Your not a FFL.  

The transfer of the MG has been approved from to the old dealer business FFL and now they want to transfer from the old FFL to the new FFL?

Assuming the old FFL license is valid still and they are transferring it to the new one, typical times is less than a week (sometimes same day) if on a eForm 3. If by mail then it was a month on a Form 3 paper.. But not sure if that still is the case.  2 months seems strange. 

 

Do they have your MG? 

Have you checked the FFL license and cross verify to address? 

I am not an FFL. Yes the transfer has been approved to the  old dealer business FFL. They are saying they have to transfer from old FFL number to new FFL number before they can transfer to dealer in Ga.

No, they are in possession of the MG. When the transfer came through I took it and the transfer paperwork to them.

I have not checked the FFL license to address. 

[Maximvickers]

40 minutes ago, MG08 said:

The biggest problem with this is the $200 cost and time added by the Transfer to your dealer first.  It could have gone direct from you on a form 4 to the GA dealer, and saved one entire form 4 transfer. If the Buyer is ok with that, don't sweat it it is his problem. Unless you are left holding the pen to write the check.  I would certainly letthe buyer know it is not your issue.  some "dealers" are not really up on the ins and outs of the business.

I tried to get the Ga dealer to take transfer directly from me. For some reason they did not want to do this. My concern is the mess with the instate dealer and his old and new FFL. Just untrusting enough not to want to get scammed. The buyer has been a trooper through all of this. Once it gets to his Ga. dealers hands I will have done my part.

[Ryo]

2 hours ago, MG08 said:

The biggest problem with this is the $200 cost and time added by the Transfer to your dealer first.  It could have gone direct from you on a form 4 to the GA dealer, and saved one entire form 4 transfer. If the Buyer is ok with that, don't sweat it it is his problem. Unless you are left holding the pen to write the check.  I would certainly letthe buyer know it is not your issue.  some "dealers" are not really up on the ins and outs of the business.

Actually it doesn't save you a Form 4.  Still have to do 2 Form 4 (assuming buyer is not a FFL/SOT).  What would have been saved is a Form 3 and a lot of time. 

[taylorwso]

16 hours ago, Maximvickers said:

I am not an FFL. Yes the transfer has been approved to the  old dealer business FFL. They are saying they have to transfer from old FFL number to new FFL number before they can transfer to dealer in Ga.

If they can transfer to their new FFL, then they could transfer it to the out of state dealer unless something funky is going on (why did the original FFL quite/go out of business). It should be on a form 3.

Even if they don't have eforms, they can email the form and it only takes a week or so.

I'm a new FFL but some of the shit Ive seen FFLs/SOTs try to do is crazy.

[b_san]

So from what I understand from reading this somewhat confusing thread is that the OPs FFL had changed hands (was sold) between when he filed his form 4 and when it was approved and the new owner still took possession of the MG.  Now since the old FFL is no longer valid the local dealer needs to Form 4 it from his old license to his new license?  I assume this because if the original dealer's business would have changed hands after he obtained possession of the MG he would have had plenty of time to transfer it out on a eForm 3 (which takes no longer than 7 days) to the GA dealer.  The part that's confusing is that if the FFL changed due to ownership change then did the business entity (Corp/LLC/etc) change as well? If it did then the new FFL owner illegally transferred the MG when he took possession of it on the previously approved Form 4, if the entity didn't change but the FFL did, then the new owner should be able to have the item added to their new FFL eform account by the ATF upon request as it's owned and already registered by the entity who is licensed under the new FFL/SOT.

Unfortunately, if you'd have known of the ownership change prior to physically transferring it to them, you could have just cancelled the existing approved Form 4 and started a new F4 either to the new local FFL or straight to the GA dealer.

PS. Im an FFL/SOT and if you are selling the MG personally then I'd recommend that you always transfer it to the buyer's FFL/SOT directly. If the buyer's dealer won't take it directly from you on a Form 4 then tell the buyer to get a new dealer who will or get a new buyer.  Transferring it to a local FFL first just adds another point of failure into the system.

PPS. The OPs current wait of 2 months is fairly accurate for the Form 4 to his new FFL.  My last incoming F4 just took under 8 weeks.

Edited December 1, 2020 by b_san

[Ryo]

16 minutes ago, b_san said:

PPS. The OPs current wait of 2 months is fairly accurate for the Form 4 to his new FFL.  My last incoming F4 just took under 8 weeks.

I'm currently waiting about 3 months for a transfer Form 4 from individual to FFL. Probably would have had the transfer completed already but the ATF wanted more information.

[b_san]

2 minutes ago, Ryo said:

I'm currently waiting about 3 months for a transfer Form 4 from individual to FFL. Probably would have had the transfer completed already but the ATF wanted more information.

Off topic, but what other info did they request that wasn't already on the form?

[Ryo]

2 hours ago, b_san said:

Off topic, but what other info did they request that wasn't already on the form?

I'm located in a non machinegun state.  It is a hit and miss requiring a letter of intent for the transfer to be approved.  More often than not it needs it. Usually I send one, but because the previous one before it they didn't ask for it (eForm 3), I figured to give it another try.  Costed me about 2 weeks of delay I believe. As of last week it has been approved but now the wait for the approval letter to arrive to the owner..

[Maximvickers]

6 hours ago, b_san said:

So from what I understand from reading this somewhat confusing thread is that the OPs FFL had changed hands (was sold) between when he filed his form 4 and when it was approved and the new owner still took possession of the MG.  Now since the old FFL is no longer valid the local dealer needs to Form 4 it from his old license to his new license?  I assume this because if the original dealer's business would have changed hands after he obtained possession of the MG he would have had plenty of time to transfer it out on a eForm 3 (which takes no longer than 7 days) to the GA dealer.  The part that's confusing is that if the FFL changed due to ownership change then did the business entity (Corp/LLC/etc) change as well? If it did then the new FFL owner illegally transferred the MG when he took possession of it on the previously approved Form 4, if the entity didn't change but the FFL did, then the new owner should be able to have the item added to their new FFL eform account by the ATF upon request as it's owned and already registered by the entity who is licensed under the new FFL/SOT.

Unfortunately, if you'd have known of the ownership change prior to physically transferring it to them, you could have just cancelled the existing approved Form 4 and started a new F4 either to the new local FFL or straight to the GA dealer.

PS. Im an FFL/SOT and if you are selling the MG personally then I'd recommend that you always transfer it to the buyer's FFL/SOT directly. If the buyer's dealer won't take it directly from you on a Form 4 then tell the buyer to get a new dealer who will or get a new buyer.  Transferring it to a local FFL first just adds another point of failure into the system.

PPS. The OPs current wait of 2 months is fairly accurate for the Form 4 to his new FFL.  My last incoming F4 just took under 8 weeks.

b_san,

Thanks for the comments. Let me try to reduce the confused nature of the thread.

1. Sold MG to buyer in Ga. MG on a form 4

2. Buyer's dealer did not want direct transfer from me.

3. Buyer's dealer wanted transferred via a dealer in KY.

4. My long time dealer deceased. Reached out to a bigger city for a dealer to do transfer.

5. Transfer from me to this dealer in KY takes a year.

6. MG and transfer form delivered to KY dealer on the 19th of September 2020.

7. Buyer and I expecting this MG to be eform transferred to GA dealer. Expecting a 1-2 week time frame. This time frame is not met.

8 I email KY dealer. Story is business owners have changed, same business name but have new FFL.

9. KY dealer says they tried to eForm transfer from their old FFL to NEW FFL.

10 KY dealer says they can't do eForm transfer from their old FFL to New FFL. They say they have to do paper transfer and snail mail according to ATF. That communication was third week of October approximately.

11. Sent email to same person at KY dealer that I have been communicating with on this since the very start. No replies to my inquiries of any progress. This email was sent on 19th November.

[Ryo]

Weird that they can't do a eForm.  Did they give a reason?

If they could do a transfer.. why not have them just do the Form 3 to the customer's dealer.. Why add that extra step of getting it to the new KY dealer.

A full year to get approved? That's something strange right there, but that's a ATF thing..

 

Also who is holding your MG?  The old business or the new one?  

[Maximvickers]

38 minutes ago, Ryo said:

Weird that they can't do a eForm.  Did they give a reason?

If they could do a transfer.. why not have them just do the Form 3 to the customer's dealer.. Why add that extra step of getting it to the new KY dealer.

A full year to get approved? That's something strange right there, but that's a ATF thing..

 

Also who is holding your MG?  The old business or the new one?  

Hi Ryo,

They did not give a reason. Just said ATF said they had to to do paper transfer.

I don't know. The business name and location are the same. They said change of ownership with new FFL

Yes strange, I have had a few over the years take that long. Don't understand the fact when it is going to a dealer. Except they did the transfer on a form 4.

The gun is at the same address/location as business maintained name and location.

[Aren]

If they are just transferring between licenses and sot were both valid during the 20-21. A paper form 3 is still a month or less.

 

Now if they let the old sot lapse, it’ll be a 3-4 month ordeal to transfer the gun.

[b_san]

So to clarify, the business entity was sold but likely remains the same however the ATF does require a new FFL be applied for by the new owners even though the entity (and likely the EIN) remain the same.  Any and all NFA items on the books of the previous FFL should have been transferred before the FFL expired but if not then they should all transfer tax free to the new FFL books the same as when I was issued a "new" FFL when I moved to a new state.  I'd call the NFA dept and ask for an expert to help but I'd think submitting a F5 requesting an update of the item to the online inventory of the new FFL might resolve the issue. 

If they can't get it resolved expeditiously then, at the very least, instead of F4ing it into their new FFL books your dealer should just F4 it to the GA dealer. I'd also assume your dealer is paying for this extra $200 tax out of their pocket since it's solely due to their ownership fuck up.

Edited December 2, 2020 by b_san

[XR Ordnance LLC]

1 hour ago, b_san said:

If they can't get it resolved expeditiously then, at the very least, instead of F4ing it into their new FFL books your dealer should just F4 it to the GA dealer. I'd also assume your dealer is paying for this extra $200 tax out of their pocket since it's solely due to their ownership fuck up.

Here's your answer in my opinion, regardless of the reason, if they in fact can't transfer to their new FFL via F3, it makes absolutely no sense to transfer to themselves via F4 then again via F3 to out of state dealer.  It would save everybody time for them to transfer direct to out of state dealer via F4 and be done with it.