JNI

Can a C & R purchase a pre-sample?

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Have any of you actually done this?

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14 minutes ago, JNI said:

Have any of you actually done this?

I'm not an FFL/SOT, nor do I play one on TV, so this is just my un-informed opinion...

Outside of a major FUBAR mistake by NFA Division, I don't see how a C&R could be approved for a Pre-Sample transfer.

A C&R is for the purpose of collecting, an FFL/SOT is for (theoretically) making money. 

Would it be cool if a C&R licensee could legally get Pre-Samples? Hell yes. I just don't see how it can be done looking at the law and the "intent" of the law.

May NFA and Hughes be struck down by SCOTUS some day!

-KristopherH

 

Edited by MontanaRenegade86
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I appreciate the input!  Shame about that acting career.... Ann

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The correct answer is no because a C&R FFL is for collecting purposes only not for sales.  A "pre-sample" (NFA imported between 68-86) was not eligible to be registered or transferred except as a sales sample to an FFL/SOT in the business of buying and selling which a C&R by definition isn't.

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Nope.. Sorry. 

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honestly i think we should try it and make the argument that the c&r license is a federal license and that if the guns are c&r eligible should be allowed to be transferred. has any one ever attempted to do it?

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Umm, C+R licenses are federal licenses and guns  that are eligible, do transfer.  The guns at question were only allowed to be imported with restrictions that they will never be released to the general public.  The guns are somewhat scarce because there was not much of an actual market or desire for them.  Even today pre-may samples don't have much value relatively speaking due to the small potential market of SOT's which are generally not collectors. 

I have one pre-may here, it's rare, yet it's value has not gone up in 15 years, vs. it's transferable equivalent that has risen 3x in the same time frame and the number of transferable guns has at least quadrupled (they can be built from registered tubes to look identical and perform better).  Glad I only did one.

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johnsonlmg41, are you a C & R holder?

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5 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:
13 hours ago, Thumpy said:

honestly i think we should try it and make the argument that the c&r license is a federal license and that if the guns are c&r eligible should be allowed to be transferred. has any one ever attempted to do it?

I could have sworn I read it on a ATF bulletin.. but with my memory I wouldn't trust it.  ;) 

5 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

Umm, C+R licenses are federal licenses and guns  that are eligible, do transfer.  The guns at question were only allowed to be imported with restrictions that they will never be released to the general public.  The guns are somewhat scarce because there was not much of an actual market or desire for them.  Even today pre-may samples don't have much value relatively speaking due to the small potential market of SOT's which are generally not collectors. 

I have one pre-may here, it's rare, yet it's value has not gone up in 15 years, vs. it's transferable equivalent that has risen 3x in the same time frame and the number of transferable guns has at least quadrupled (they can be built from registered tubes to look identical and perform better).  Glad I only did one.

Strange.. preMay have gone up in value, some more than others.  ie premay MP5 has gone up $5k+ within the last 7 years. Wish I bought a more stuff back then whether premay or transferables.

 

Edited by Ryo

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Some have, some haven't.  For example pre-may Stens have not moved much, nor have pre-may Reisings but to be fair their respective transferrables are fairly inexpensive as well.  I bought a pre-may M37 a couple years back very cheap and sold it for a bit more but people are asking DLO transferrable prices for them now (which I think is silly).

The thing I've always wondered is why we aren't awash in pre-may M16s and M14s. I mean I guess they were cheap enough and in current production prior to May '86 that there wasn't much of a market for reimporting them but you'd think there should still be thousands of them even so.

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I am surprised that Reisings are so cheap for what they are. I like shooting mine.. so I'm thankful the prices are still "reasonable". Just wish the other MG were too.

Definitely wondered why they didn't import more M16s back in to the country too.  Prices are crazy for them since they are a lot more rare than the transferable one.

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11 hours ago, JNI said:

johnsonlmg41, are you a C & R holder?

Currently yes, but I've held other licenses concurrently.

Who would pay to import an M16 when you could spend an hour having one made, or call a local distributor and order a new one for less money then working to import them back up to 1986.  The other problem with importing is you actually have to find someone in another country that bought them, and virtually no other country purchased them....we gave most of them away.  I was in an armory with literally tons of US equipment, but none of it will ever return to the US because technically  it's on "loan".  The M16 barrels had been welded into a fence.  Other barrels were used as rebar in the highway.

Pre-may Mp-5's haven't gone up 5K,  I see them auction from 7500-8500, they were not 2500 7 years ago because I had paid more than that 10 years ago.  I recall them in the 5K range, but I don't track samples much as a collector these days

The theory had always been atf was going to allow them to be transferable and guys fantasized about building a pile and then cashing in when they went transferable.  Everyone has a dream.  The moral of the story  is you have to pay to play, and while I'm not a fan of transferable prices, I pay because long term that's where the value is and like everything else shortcuts and a fast buck never last long.

For now Reisings are "cheap", but there has been a trendline.  The first one I paid 2K for, the one a couple years ago was $4500...now more. 

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That makes sense about the M16. Wonder what the wife would say if I make a M16 barrel fence around the house.  :D

PreMay MP5A2 were about $8000 in 2012, but now I seen them different dealers list them for $14k to $16k, hence why I say $5k+.

Transferable Reisings have been trending around $6200 to $7500. I paid high end from an auction but it was a beauty with very low serial #.

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I live in a C&R only NFA State.  I picked up a few C&R Listed Pre '86 Dealer Samples when I had my FFL/SOT that I've kept since I let those licenses expire.  I have maintained a C&R License since, but have only transferred C&R Transferable weapons on that License.  

The C&R License is a collectors license, clearly defined as not a dealer license.  I've never considered that a Dealer Sample would be approved for transfer to a non SOT.   

But if someone wants to call or write to get a ruling from NFA Branch, the worst they can do is say no...

 

 

 

 

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Unfortunately there is no such thing as a C+R dealer sample.  That's a great question though as to whether or not in MN you can still hold a non C+R MG after your SOT is dropped?  I would guess it's against state statutes, but the feds could care less since you aren't in violation with them. 

 

Some MP5 pre-mays not so expensive  https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_N__ALWAYS_DESIRABLE_H_K_MP5A3_MACHINE_GUN_WITH_R_-LOT473559.aspx

https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-Military-Artifacts/Firearms/N-FANTASTIC-1972-MANUFACTURED-ORIGINAL-HK-MP5-MACHINE-GUN-PRE-86-DEALER-SAMPLE/lotInformation/50175685

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This is in reference to importation, but I would read that this indicates the ATF does consider a Sales Sample as C&R:

27 CFR § 479.112(d)

Curio or Relic Sales Samples

Generally, importers seeking to import NFA firearms that are curios or relics as sales samples must clearly establish that the curio or relic NFA firearms sought for importation are particularly suitable for use as a law enforcement weapon. 

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2 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

Unfortunately there is no such thing as a C+R dealer sample.  That's a great question though as to whether or not in MN you can still hold a non C+R MG after your SOT is dropped?  I would guess it's against state statutes, but the feds could care less since you aren't in violation with them. 

 

Some MP5 pre-mays not so expensive  https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_N__ALWAYS_DESIRABLE_H_K_MP5A3_MACHINE_GUN_WITH_R_-LOT473559.aspx

https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-Military-Artifacts/Firearms/N-FANTASTIC-1972-MANUFACTURED-ORIGINAL-HK-MP5-MACHINE-GUN-PRE-86-DEALER-SAMPLE/lotInformation/50175685

Wow.. Nice deal.. 

Why can't I catch a auction like those.. They always get way overpriced when I'm watching. 

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What about the following situation.  A  WW2 machine gun that is now eligible to be a C&R was imported prior to the 1968 ban on importation for sale to civilians.  It is bought by an a FFL/SOT on a Form 3  for his inventory but never transferred out to a civilian on a Form 4.  It was never listed as a dealer sample, but remains in inventory till after the 1968 importationtation ban.  

Would the gun be considered as a transferable C&R?

Prior to the 1968 ban on importation for sale to civilians, did  a  dealer FFL/SOT have to acquire a MG as a dealer sample or could an FFL/SOT transfer into his  inventory on a Form 3 from an importer or import himself a Machine gun for sale to civilians on a Form4  ?

Edited by mhawley
Clarification

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16 hours ago, mhawley said:

What about the following situation.  A  WW2 machine gun that is now eligible to be a C&R was imported prior to the 1968 ban on importation for sale to civilians.  It is bought by an a FFL/SOT on a Form 3  for his inventory but never transferred out to a civilian on a Form 4.  It was never listed as a dealer sample, but remains in inventory till after the 1968 importationtation ban.  

Would the gun be considered as a transferable C&R?

Prior to the 1968 ban on importation for sale to civilians, did  a  dealer FFL/SOT have to acquire a MG as a dealer sample or could an FFL/SOT transfer into his  inventory on a Form 3 from an importer or import himself a Machine gun for sale to civilians on a Form4  ?

Again, not an FFL/SOT, so take it at face value...

If the firearm in your scenario was imported and registered before GCA '68 took effect, it should be a fully transferable machinegun. The fact that it didn't ever transfer on a Form 4 should have no bearing on whether the firearm is transferable or not.

Again, this is my interpretation of the law and the "intent" of the law. 

Speaking about the "intent" of the law, all gun control legislation has the intent of keeping firearms out of the hands of the unwashed masses. An armed society is a free society, an unarmed society is ripe for tyranny.

Election Day is coming up, guys, make sure to get out and vote!

Keep America Great!

-KristopherH

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I think what some may be missing is that the requirement to transfer into your possession a Pre may Dealer sample is  1) current FFL - like a type 01 or type 07.  2) and to have a current SOT  Pretty sure the hiccup in the C&R FFL is that BATF will not consider a type 03 C&R FFL eligible for SOT. If you drop your FFL/ SOT, an sell a Premay sample you kept after dropping your SOT ( not the FFL, the SOT) you are no longer eligible to transfer the gun on a form 3 tax free. It has to go to the next FFL/ SOT on a form 4.  The forms are just tax paid or tax exempt transfer documents, no bearing on the firearm.   What is says on the forms as far as "Premay" warning stamped in red or not, does not matter.  Some premay guns have transferred a couple times as "transferable" and then some one is left holding the bag when BATF catches up and marks the gun as Premay on the forms.   I have an M60 here that is a post sample gun, I knew it and yet the form 3 shows no restrictions stamp.  I am working with My examiner and inspector to fix  that one - paper is really hoed up on it.....

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I would wager that the Dutch AR10 linked below is actually a premay sample even though the seller advertises it as fully transferable.  The serial number is smack in the range of premay Guatemalan AR10s.  and I have never seen a Guat AR10 in the US that was not a pre may.

https://otbfirearms.com/armalite-ar-10-308-dutch/

Anyway, I emailed the seller suggesting he investigate.  He had listed the gun for $25K and I let him know that pre may AR10s like his go for $8K-10K.  He reacted by adding another $20K to his price.  So I guess its more on display than for sale anyway so no buyer will be harmed.

 

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14 hours ago, HHollow said:

I would wager that the Dutch AR10 linked below is actually a premay sample even though the seller advertises it as fully transferable.  The serial number is smack in the range of premay Guatemalan AR10s.  and I have never seen a Guat AR10 in the US that was not a pre may.

https://otbfirearms.com/armalite-ar-10-308-dutch/

Anyway, I emailed the seller suggesting he investigate.  He had listed the gun for $25K and I let him know that pre may AR10s like his go for $8K-10K.  He reacted by adding another $20K to his price.  So I guess its more on display than for sale anyway so no buyer will be harmed.

 

That's Vito being Vito...

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