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What if you can’t produce copy of Form 4 when LE asks?


davester

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I always tell customers they are required by law to always have a copy of their approved Form 4 with them in case LE asks to see it.  It’s the law of course.  A client recently asked what would happen if he did not have it when asked.  What are the consequences? I can’t seem to find anything definitive on it. Thanks in advance

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I would think it would depend on the LEO attitude and the state law.  If they thought you have a illegal NFA item, they can confiscate it and you have to take some time to get it back. (I don't know the process of this).  So far I've never been asked to show my Form 4 or Form 3s. One time when I had a LEO on the same range, (Note I'm in a state where MG are not legal to own), he didn't even come over to check to check out  my paperwork.

Some ranges you sign a contract to show the ATF Form 4  if you use a NFA item on the premises or you will be escorted off the premises.

However it is by law you present your form to a ATF agent or investigator.  A LEO coming over is not considered a investigator, hence he doesn't have the right to look at the paperwork.  Likely the ATF agent would show up at the door rather than at the range.. so technically your giving your customer wrong information if you say it is by law you need to carry it.  I just tell them it is recommended to carry it. I always carry mine.. it just reduces chances of misunderstandings.

Edited by Ryo
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2 hours ago, davester said:

I always tell customers they are required by law to always have a copy of their approved Form 4 with them in case LE asks to see it.  It’s the law of course.  A client recently asked what would happen if he did not have it when asked.  What are the consequences? I can’t seem to find anything definitive on it. Thanks in advance

It's not "the law of course" to always have your paperwork with you. Ryo explained it pretty well, the way the law is written in many states NFA items are illegal UNLESS properly registered with the federal government so, as he said, keeping proof (I'd suggest a picture of your stamps in a folder on your phone) with you would be a good way to diffuse any over-zealous LEO from confiscating them.  I don't carry anything with me and I've also never been asked to show any paperwork, not even when I was back in MN where most of what I was shooting was only legal for licensees.  I have had many LEOs come up and start talking about how cool the guns I'm shooting are and I usually encourage them empty a mag. Everyone has a good time and parts friends.

Edited by b_san
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b_san brought up a good point.. Keep a electronic copy on your phone in case you accidentally forget the paperwork.

On the phone because not all places you'll have cell reception to pull it from a online folder, etc. Note of course this is assuming you have a smart phone to view your paperwork.

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  • 2 weeks later...

True story: I am an FFL/SOT here in Oregon and was up in the Tillamook forest shooting (M.G's are not allowed at ranges here, so we go to the hills) I was all alone and had my MP5 out at the time a Sheriff's Deputy came by. We spoke for a moment, he was heading past me on a one lane logging road, so I knew he would come back by.

When he did swing back by, I asked him straight up, "why did you not ask me for any paperwork on my M.G's"?

He simply said, "if I would have suspected anything, I would have asked" however you look totally legit. He also mentioned, "I can usually tell when someone is up to no good".

We had a laugh and off he went, and I had my answer. I have never been asked for paperwork in over 18 years, But I still carry my F3's (Just in case).

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  • 1 month later...

In some states an NFA item is only legal if you can show your "permit" (their words not mine). So here in CT I would say they could take the gun until you can prove you have the paperwork showing it is legal.

 

Every state could be different and there is no fit all answer.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I am probably overly cautious, but the majority of my stuff is accessible through eforms. For everything. I have it scanned and saved on a flash drive with my house keys in case of fire, theft whatever and as an added backup, all the Form 1s, Form 4a, schedules and trust docs and attorneys contact info are saved in my smartphone email in a folder called “possible problems”. That being said, traveling for matches, public ranges, game enforcement etc... no one has EVER asked to see my paperwork for anything. Ounce of prevention I guess. 
Lee

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On 6/19/2020 at 2:09 PM, davester said:

I always tell customers they are required by law to always have a copy of their approved Form 4 with them in case LE asks to see it.  It’s the law of course.  A client recently asked what would happen if he did not have it when asked.  What are the consequences? I can’t seem to find anything definitive on it. Thanks in advance

Kinda like not having your driver's license when you get pulled over for speeding...you aint goin no where until the officer verifies you have a license.

I keep my paperwork (copies) with my ear protection.  

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My recollection of KS law is that around 2008 (which is subject to being way wrong) they went from nothing to anything allowed by adding an exemption to the statute for items registered with the federal gov.  If that's accurate, then the burden is on the possessor and producing the form to state/county/local LE might save someone an unenjoyable experience of being arrested and/or having their stuff pinched then not charged after producing the proof.

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  • 3 weeks later...

For CLEO notification, I have always used my county Sheriff. I suspect the whole department knows what I have, because it seems to come up in conversation every-time I go there for business (CPW renewal, etc).

I get left alone. I've never been called in for full auto shooting and I've never had any kind of contact with LEO or snoopers. 

If I ever have a contact, I'll gladly produce proof of registration for LEO, but snoopers can kiss my ass. 

-KristopherH

 

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I have thought about this situation a lot. I have yet to have the sheriffs out for FA fire they have been out for tannerite more then once lol we see them drive by an they just wave an don’t stop or ask us anything an we do some pretty healthy amounts of tannerite. But never for the mgs.

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Since 1985, I have had to show proof to RSO's at two ranges before they would let us shoot. One was a club sanctioned shoot and one was a private indoor range.

One time we were shooting on private property within view of the road with permission of the owner when a deputy responded to a noise complaint.  One of our party was a deputy as well. He spoke with him in "deputeese" for a minute and he left without asking for anything.  

We regularly shoot at a local police range. All the officers know me and where I work and never ask to see paperwork. They never ask to shoot anything, but also never turn down a chance to shoot when offered. They also bring out some neat stuff they let us shoot as well.

In FL, they say MG's are legal as long as possessed in compliance with federal law. I always have proof with me just in case and would have no problem showing to curious LEO's. Don't start none, won't be none.

 

 

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For my SBR with silencer I carry both stamp copies in the Magpul storage grip. Will never lose it or forget it.

As for my other supressors I just keep copies in a folder in my range bag so there will always be access to it.

I do like the idea of phone storage but haven't seen the need for that for now.

Edited by MEW
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Most leo don't know what to look for anyways.

I've been asked a couple times for "paperwork". I ask them what they want to see and its usually "show me your class 3". I tell them there is no such thing. If they are decent about it, I explain the paperwork and show them the forms so they don't look like idiots. If they are being a prick about it, they get told to fuck off and call a supevisor. Never had anyone do that but had a couple troopers pissed they knew they couldnt do anything.

I used to carry forms all over and even printed sections of the USC with exact verbiage of the code where who gets to see what(as posted above) so I could educated people. Now I just don't care

The biggest aspect to understand is state laws, some require you to carry paperwork, most dont.

 

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I'm an FFL/SOT in Indiana, which is a NFA friendly state, but I make it a practice to have my FFL license copy, SOT,  along with the Form 2s of any post samples I may be using at the time. It just makes sense to avoid any misunderstandings with "The Man" whether they be LEO, ATF, or any other badge carriers.  The same also applies when I take a customer out to try out their new NFA toy, which in this case would be form 3 or 4. I also provides an example of what they need to be prepared for.

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  • 4 weeks later...

i used to carry form 4 copies all the time i shot. 

after 20+ yrs of shooting mgs and being asked exactly once for it ...actually i offered bc the officer was visibly concerned and i wanted to put hiom at ease and i was on county private land but a scared neighbor complained and called sheriff etc.

anyway... i even had a few shrunk down and laminated. 

but then my mg addiction quickened . i'd have to bring out a frikkin book worth of that crap now - mgs, cans, sbrs. prob got 50 sbrs now bc i went crazy back when f1 was first put on eform.

now i dont even bother. sure i have copies on my cloud backup i could access while at the range but it'd take a while to find the proper reg. for any one particular nfa item.

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1 hour ago, rhouston8 said:

i used to carry form 4 copies all the time i shot. 

after 20+ yrs of shooting mgs and being asked exactly once for it ...actually i offered bc the officer was visibly concerned and i wanted to put hiom at ease and i was on county private land but a scared neighbor complained and called sheriff etc.

anyway... i even had a few shrunk down and laminated. 

but then my mg addiction quickened . i'd have to bring out a frikkin book worth of that crap now - mgs, cans, sbrs. prob got 50 sbrs now bc i went crazy back when f1 was first put on eform.

now i dont even bother. sure i have copies on my cloud backup i could access while at the range but it'd take a while to find the proper reg. for any one particular nfa item.

Crazy?  I think not sir.  

I'm contemplating converting to a  F7..  Then I can build my own for demos.  

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