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Thompson - 21/28 Question


ATT-Tactical

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Ladies & Gentlemen, got a question for the faithful: Properly stamped for a Navy but it has no Anchor on the Buttstock and is not wearing it's Du-Lite finish. Appears to be parkerized. Took it in trade from a smaller Village PD, and the Department had no paperwork on it, yet the 5 came back approved. I was wondering if anyone had "THE BOOK" and would be so kind as to check who originally took delivery of it from Colt-AO. 

John in NY

Serial # 7204

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Here ya go, see below....

1928 Navy #7204

Federal Laboratories Inc. 185 41st Street Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Sales Sample for Salesman, W.C. Jamison Hillman Hotel,

Birmingham, Alabama (1 Shipped to him 9/14/33)

 

Hawkeye Protective Appliance Company (demo) Des Moines, Iowa 5/35

Port Chester, New York Police Department (form 10)

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17 hours ago, Centrifugal Arms said:

Here ya go, see below....

1928 Navy #7204

Federal Laboratories Inc. 185 41st Street Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Sales Sample for Salesman, W.C. Jamison Hillman Hotel,

Birmingham, Alabama (1 Shipped to him 9/14/33)

 

Hawkeye Protective Appliance Company (demo) Des Moines, Iowa 5/35

Port Chester, New York Police Department (form 10)

I'm just curious......... looking at Centrifugal Arms post, it has "Form 10" in parentheses.  As a general point of discussion, how could any gun that was on a Form 10 at some point in its history, end up being transferred out of a LE agency to an SOT on a Form 5?

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If the Thompson was registered during the '68 Amnesty, it would account for the Form 10 Registration but...
How is that information included in Gordon Herigstad's book unless he had submitted a FOIA to NFA for that history, which he didn't.
I don't know if Treasury Practices back then included the factory registering a Thompson to a Police Department on a Form 10 or even if after 1935's transfer, Form 10's were still transferable (since I have it now). 

Without knowing if either W.C. Jamison or Hawkeye Protective requested a 21/28 as a sales sample it would be impossible to determine exactly when this gun was taken off the shelf and converted with it's re-Mark as a Navy gun. 

The gun apparently changed hand 3 times prior to the Port Chester Police Department received it (as per the book), but when did that happen? Before or after Nicaragua? Before or after ?

Anyway, I have that 21/28, that's been Parkerized, but I know it's never been refinished by the Port Chester Police Department. The U.S. NAVY and the *8* overstamp show the base metal so unless the Police did a scam and this is a restamp, the Parkerizing was done prior to it's conversion.

AO did have 1911's going out with a Parkerized finish. 

Thoughts?  Anyone?


 

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  I claim absolutely no expertise on the COLT THOMPSONS and variations , but have personally examined well over 250 examples in hand over the years I HAVE TRIED TO FOLLOW THIS THREAD AND JUST SEE WHERE IT GO'S BUT NOW I NEED TO KNOW, where the possibility of NICARAGUA USE enters its history?  of the more than 150 COLTS we ran thru the books ONLY one example had that provenance and it was not marked "NAVY" it was stamped 8 over 1 and then A1 followed. at the time many doubted its provenance or if there was even any known example in private hands from that small lot the marines carried over there. when GORDON was a guest and checking the inventory, it was part of the group he never touched b-4 he was asked to "leave" and all those never made his book. the term "SALES SAMPLE" as applied in the AUTO ORDNANCE LOGS and the FEDERAL LAB BOOKS from the  period we are concerned with here, does NOT mean the same thing as the term is considered by ATF or its POSITION in the registry. in the 30'S many guns were logged out at price levels that would have raised a flag at the end of the year. this was justified and considered temporary by the term "sales sample" allowing a out of channel destination for demo purposes only. 

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I make even less a claim to possessing any Colt Thompson knowledge. Port Chester PD is located in Lower Westchester County, a stone's throw from the Connecticut line. It had sat in their basement gun vault for as long as the oldest living cop still working there remembers. 

Lets just say that after the gun went to Hawkeye Protective Appliance Company (demo) Des Moines, Iowa  on 5/1935 (and they were a Thompson Dealer I discovered) , without knowing when it was registered to Port Chester, it leaves a big hole in its history. 

They had no paperwork on it ( No early Treasury Letter & no later Form 10 and I did check with the Department's Secretary for a Repair Invoice or any mention of it in any Department Weapons Log all the way back to the remaining (post-Fire) records (1963).

The 3 Ithaca Auto Burglars came from the same department and Form 5'ed to me just fine.  

And for Nicaragua, I thought all those were '28's, (which, if I'm reading History right, were all Parkerized).

Now, the Port Chester Post Office was hit repeatedly by bad guys back in the late '3o-'4o-'5o's when cash moved between the Manhattan GPO and Boston GPO via the US Mails. US Marines did escort the mail runs through Port Chester which served as a resorting station before being sent up US Route 1 north. This is all speculation on my part. 

 

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"What an interesting gun, I wish it could talk.  In my opinion, it appears someone along the way stripped most of the Colt Parts out of this gun and replaced them with WWII vintage 28a1 parts.  I can say without doubt, the barrel is a WWII contract 28 barrel, as is the type 4 cutts that's on the gun.  The lower is obviously Colt but the parts inside it are not (or at least the ones I can see), selector lever, safety, mag catch.  I'm nearly certain the rear sight has been replaced or at a minimum the rivets have.  The actuator is for a late model Savage 28a1, the bolt is likely replaced but would need to know if there's any marking on it to help, the recoil spring guide would need checked on the flat that fits up against the receiver for an S marking I would guess is there (as a side note) I don't see a buffer in the pictures, if it's missing it should be replaced before shooting the gun.  Lastly the wood... I don't believe the buttstock is Colt because it's missing it's Anchor from Remington that all of them had, just incase it's hard to see in the pictures, pull the butt plate off and see if there's numbers under it, Remington numbered all stocks and butt plates on the underside (similar S/N:s as the guns but they weren't matched to the gun) that would settle that.  I can't say on the pistol grip or front grip without more detailed pictures of them.   I would think if someone was taking the Colt parts they would have also took the wood, who knows though."

https://www.dropbox.com/s/797mftx28vls7zk/20200117_100001.jpg?dl=0   Buttstock Wood & Buttplate
I can't help notice the Buttplate number has the gun's serial number, last 3 digits inversed

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bwhv121nfygnaet/20200117_100243.jpg?dl=0 The PCPD etched into the wood

The Recoil Spring Guide does bear the "S" mark, but it is too short and caused the recoil spring to kink badly. 
Machined a longer more robust unit and used the Wolff Spring set along with the original buffer. The spring no longer doubles over and it operates smoothly.
It now functions flawlessly.

I'll get pictures of the bolt.  

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My 21/28 Colt/Savage Thompson Frankenstein SMG won't work with the stick mags that came with the gun. And somewhere I remember reading that there was a G.I. Thompson Mag Catch that would work in a 21 based gun so that "Military " stick mags would work??? How would I identify & differentiate between M1 and 21 mags by looking at them? And was there really such a Mag Catch? My Drum mags work perfectly and lock in solidly. 

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Magazines for an M1 and 21 or 28 are all functionally the same.  If your stick mags aren't working, you may have an issue with the magazine catch but more likely you may have stick mags that were modified for use in semi guns.  Check the back of the mag and see if the hole that the catch locks into has been elongated or if it's still round.  If it's been elongated, your mags are sitting too low in the gun to feed properly and will need repaired/replaced.

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On 1/20/2020 at 3:07 PM, Centrifugal Arms said:

Magazines for an M1 and 21 or 28 are all functionally the same.  If your stick mags aren't working, you may have an issue with the magazine catch but more likely you may have stick mags that were modified for use in semi guns.  Check the back of the mag and see if the hole that the catch locks into has been elongated or if it's still round.  If it's been elongated, your mags are sitting too low in the gun to feed properly and will need repaired/replaced.

Can you tell me if there are any other entries in that book you got the info from that shows Form 10 to an agency? 
Form 10 - Application for Registration of Firearms Acquired by Certain Governmental Entities (ATF Form 5320.10)
27CFR 479.104 provides for limited registration of otherwise unregistered firearms by certain governmental entities, for official use only.  If this application is approved, it is with the condition that the firearm is for "OFFICIAL USE ONLY"

 

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On 1/20/2020 at 3:07 PM, Centrifugal Arms said:

Magazines for an M1 and 21 or 28 are all functionally the same.  If your stick mags aren't working, you may have an issue with the magazine catch but more likely you may have stick mags that were modified for use in semi guns.  Check the back of the mag and see if the hole that the catch locks into has been elongated or if it's still round.  If it's been elongated, your mags are sitting too low in the gun to feed properly and will need repaired/replaced.

Magazine Catch
Manufacturer: THOMPSON
Model: 1928, M1/M1A1 FULL AUTO
Product #: 500790C
Shipment prohibited outside USA.

$50.25 $45.23

Out of Stock
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Thompson, founded back in 1916 by John Taliaferro Thompson—inventor of the legendary Tommy Gun. My mother's maiden name is Taliferro as was William Booth Taliaferro, who was a United States Army officer, a lawyer, legislator, Confederate general in the American Civil War, and Grand Master of Masons in Virginia. The Taliaferros (originally Tagliaferro, Italian pronunciation: [ˌtaʎʎaˈfɛrro], which means "ironcutter" in Italian) are one of the early families who settled in Virginia in the 17th century. 

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ATT-Tactical,

You have acquired a very interesting Thompson gun. NO 7204 was in inventory at Federal Laboratories and listed as a 1928AC on July 26, 1934. While the U.S. NAVY markings have been applied in a rather sloppy manner compared to many other NAVY marked Thompsons, the markings were most likely applied by Auto-Ordnance employees when NO 7204 was converted from a Model of 1921 to a Model of 1928AC or U.S. NAVY Model Thompson. I have pictures of other Colt NAVY Thompsons with similar sloppy markings. Review of the pictures you posted indicate most, if not all of the Colt's parts have been replaced with GI parts. The finish is also not original. I am assuming the frame serial number matches the receiver serial number, but please correct me if I am mistaken. The two L drums shown in one picture are not of the Colt's era. One is a World War II "Bridgeport" drum; the other is from Auto-Ordnance in West Hurley, New York. NO 7204 is definitely a shooter grade Colt Thompson. Since it has been refinished, there is really no way to return it to its original form. And the cost would be very prohibitive. That said, NO 7204 could be made into a very nice Colt shooter Thompson. I would also suggest you save all the IRS/ATF forms that you have for NO 7204. The results of a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request would be very interesting. Contact me if you would like some help in filing a FOIA. The cost is usually free.  

Edited by TD.
Federal Laboratories, not Federal Ordnance
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TD, Carpet matches the drapes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7m99a5xsb35dacy/20200110_135936.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/asc4qnxy0y0qkkx/20200117_100001%20%281%29.jpg?dl=0 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nhhnybv7i75s5ez/Centrifugal_Arms.jpg?dl=0

I'm apprehensive as to what the NFA FOIA I've submitted will return. The Form 10 Entry to Port Chester PD has me worried depending on if it was amnesty registered. That doesn't make sense though. 

 

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I will be glad to review the FOIA packet from ATF when received. I have done that for a lot of Colt's. Feel free to reach out to me on this or any other Colt's with questions - tkd5501@fuse.net 

NO 7204 appears to have been used as a demo gun by several parties prior to being acquired by Port Chester Police Department. The FOIA will show when NO 7204 was originally registered with the IRS. That may explain the Form 10. While I cannot explain it, I do know that some Form 10 guns are transferable. And have been transferred. I believe it has something to do with the date of registration. Some guns have also be registered several times over the years.  

I would guess NO 7204 was well used when acquired by the Port Chester PD, probably at a discounted price if sold directly by Federal Laboratories or Auto-Ordnance. The pilfering of the Colt's parts and refinish most likely happened at the Port Chester PD. 

I am glad the frame number matches the receiver number. A big plus. A quick review of NO 7204 reveals the ejector and rear sight may be original parts (but unfortunately, parkerized). Perhaps the grip mount is original too. I cannot tell about the fore grip but the other wood is definitely not original. If priced right as-is, NO 7204 could be turned into a beautiful Colt's shooter gun with a professional re-blue, new wood and barrel. Many of the GI parts could be altered for the Colt's look.  

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