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mike todd

some usefull FFL info for EVERYONE!

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an out of state LONG TIME MG shooter requested the exact date of our 2020 spring shoot and when I asked why was surprised to find out he did not know the limitations OR benefits the various FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSE'S ALLOW! so I thought I would clear some of them up for others that may not know. I am not a full fledged expert in any case BUT this information is 100% correct and has been documented to me by ATF agents over the years  my main goal is to show why ANY LEVEL of FFL holder SHOULD ALSO have a C+R. first NO dealer can deliver out of his state a firearm to another dealer in his home state UNLESS it was ordered and invoiced prior to leaving his state to make the delivery. so a transaction cant be initiated by the out of state dealer UNLESS ITS TO A CURRENT C+R HOLDER from ANY state IN any state and the item meets the requirements. a C+R HOLDER need not file ANY form 5 or seek prior approval to move to another state any C+R MACHINE GUN. of course a C+R holder can be in ANY state and buy from ANYONE , ANY C+R on impulse and take instant possession. so in many cases I have seen in the past no matter what level FFL one holds, having an additional C+R FFL can be helpful "just in case" the ATF will not advise or prosecute on any STATE laws or  city codes so its the C+R holders responsibility  to comply with them if any. if you like the old stuff, don't be afraid to get one.

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I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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So mike if I got my C&R license an wanted to go over to say Kansas witch is a neboring state to shoot at a friends place I could w a c&r with just as long as the mg was a c&r eligible gun cross the state line with out filing any other forms? Or no?

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Correct - 27 CFR 478.28 - bear in mind if you are one of the legion that registered your stuff to a trust, you will then have to transfer the firearm(s) from trust to yourself/LLC/Corp that holds the 03 FFL.  

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THUMPY, here we go, those damned trusts had to show up again (sigh) if you are THE TRUSTEE its all the same, travel / move um at will. YES ! any C+R, MG or NOT can travel with the license holder at will.  I have ALWAYS advised AGAINST and say BEWARE any type of trust if you have anything in one, GET IT OUT! a close friend lost his entire collection because a son on the trust was in possession of a MG. he had 2 prev DWI's and when coming back from shooting, the trailer ball came off. no major damage , BUT a trooper stopped to assist and during the routine DL check, records opened . he blew .001 over max allowed and was arrested. low and behold there was a roach of that evil weed in the ashtray. NEEDLESS to say, the MG (UZI) was seized at the scene. I week later ATF SIEZED EVERYTHING at the ranch, firearm related NOT just the trust stuff. many passed down 3rd generation ranch gun antiques. personal hunting rifles and handguns. ALL the ammo and reloading equipment, I mean everything! not sure about the AIR GUNS so they may not be completely defenseless. attorney says no hope for return and most likely ALL will be destroyed long B-4 the DWI trial which may not happen for a year .B-4 the trust he had owned only a couple NFA items and was not a big player, all the trust fiasco came up when he decided to get several cans for hunting. a local dealer planted the trust idea claiming it would cut the wait time down for approvals and of course no CLEO. I warned him the CLEO was due to be purged soon and almost begged him to avoid the trust. he owns a large ranch and its where all family hunted and used most of the firearms . I explained so little was gained it was not worth the risk, but the dealer prevailed and he even paid transfer fees to move his personal NFA all to the trust. he argued now my son can take ANYTHING HOME , its a win win and I was completely wrong.  SURE WORKED OUT WELL FOR HIM DIDNT IT?


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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Some clarification of the following:

"........a C+R HOLDER need not file ANY form 5 or seek prior approval to move to another state any C+R MACHINE GUN. of course a C+R holder can be in ANY state and buy from ANYONE , ANY C+R on impulse and take instant possession."

Form 5 is not used for this purpose at any time. I think what you meant to refer to is the 5320 notification of ATF of intent to move NFA interstate which is optional for FFL03 licensees. Traveling or moving with NFA interstate can be subject to state laws.

A C+R licensee may never take "instant possession" on purchase of any NFA controlled item. By including mention of this privilege for Title I purchase by an FFL03 in the discussion of MGs, Title II, and the use of the FFL03 for Title II, the implication is misleading. All NFA C+R transfers to an FFL03 are completed after taxed F4 application approval (with the exception of use of untaxed F5 transfer of registered C+R DEWAT). An interstate F4 transfer application can be written to go directly to the FFL03 buyer on approval, so the FFL03 licensee can receive the NFA interstate directly from the seller.

Personally, I see no need for an FFL/SOT to also have a C+R FFL. Also, a buyer taking possession of any firearm is restricted to the FFL's premises but I don't understand the restriction on the 4473 allowing non-premises transfers of Title I, and approved transfers of Title II, firearms to "qualified shows". Is there a difference between being absent from the premises at a show and absent from the premises at a buyer's home or elsewhere? 4473s are portable and phoning NICs can happen from anywhere. What am I missing here?

Amend as you see fit...... 

 

 

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BRMC, the way BOB LANDIES (FFL-SOT) explained it to me, if he is attending an event out of his state, and has a C+R on display. ONLY a C+R HOLDER can purchase and take instant possession of it no other lic holder may. should any other license holder want to purchase it OR act as a receiving FFL holder for an unlicensed buyer the item must remain in the sellers possession until he returns to his home state then he can MAIL it to the receiving dealer again because all out of state deliveries he makes must be invoiced B-4 he leaves his state.  FOR YEARS I have seen exactly the opposite openly occur at shows. FFL holder cruising the isles, finds something c+r or not, flashes a copy of FFL , settles and picks it up and walks off?  OR an in state individual drags his in state dealer to the item who takes it and the individual completes 4473 and leaves. many have told me TECHNICALLY not LAWFULL but if not observed, undetectable in the "BOOKS" modern or C+R.  add a C+R lic and no violation ? again no expert nor do I wish to be just passing on info as it was explained too me by a trusted long time dealer.


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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What you describe above is the standard FFL03 privilege for purchasing Title I firearms that are C+R eligible. I don't believe anyone with an FFL03 is confused about that. Nothing unusual about the procedure of purchase by an FFL03 and I was not addressing that at all.  
What I was addressing was that you appeared to mix together FFL03 privileges for Title I purchases with Title II purchases in your original comment. There is no "instant possession" with purchase of C+R Title II firearms by an FFL03. Just trying to clarify that. 

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BRMC,  as always, I found your comments a welcome addition and we almost always agree in concept.  I am an ignorant uneducated dinosaur with few language skills and even worse typing ability. my goal in this case was to show an option few might have been aware of, certainly not attempt to explain ALL the functions of ALL the various FFL's available. I wanted to provide information concerning the movement of C+R NFA items in possession my failure to mention NEW C+R purchases and possession was due to it being so obvious I thought it a waste of time. I don't know if BOBS interpretation  concerning modern arms OR transactions between other than C+R FFL holders is correct or not. AGAIN I wanted to point out the benefits of a C+R ONLY. other FFL's and possible limitations were included only to support those benefits. several of the OLD SCHOOL guys from my past had them in addition to the various FFL's and I often wondered why.  I had assumed the next step up, allowed everything those below offered plus other activity, but was told C+R's were an exception and completely different books were kept etc.


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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