stiknruddr

Russian 1910 Snowcap Maxim

Location: Tennessee

43 posts in this topic

Beautiful 1910 Snowcap Maxim built by Bob Naess. Test fired only. LEFT sideplate gun built using 1918 DWM sideplate. Sokolov mount and shield. 5 spare barrels, cans belts, loader spare lock. $17000, final price drop. 

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Edited by stiknruddr
Wording

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Will this transfer out of state on a Form 3 or 4?

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I believe form 3 to your SOT (done quickly) then form 4 to you. 

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41 minutes ago, stiknruddr said:

I believe form 3 to your SOT (done quickly) then form 4 to you. 

You believe or you know?  Is this gun in the possession of a dealer - FFL/SOT who will efile the transfer to another dealer? 

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For some reason I’m not getting notifications of messages. The gun is in my possession on a form 4. I’m not a SOT. The local SOT said it would transfer dealer to dealer pretty quickly then on form 4 to the new (individual) buyer. That information needs to be confirmed especially if going out of state. 

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As to efile I will check with them I’m in TN

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if on a form 4 , I DONT BELIEVE  E-FILE is POSSIBLE. it must jump thru the hoops like an individual. the last form -4 gun I bought was almost 11 months b-4 approval to my dealer. others claim 120 days or less . nothing like that has happened on my end the past 6 yrs or more


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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if on a form 4 , I DONT BELIEVE  E-FILE is POSSIBLE. it must jump thru the hoops like an individual. the last form -4 gun I bought was almost 11 months b-4 approval to my dealer. others claim 120 days or less . nothing like that has happened on my end the past 6 yrs or more


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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Form 4s to dealers seem to be running 60 - 90 days. 

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As I said...I own it on a form 4 in the state of TN. It is in my gun safe. Bob Naess built it on a C&R MG08 side plate. As I understand it from Bob no longer C&R due now a 1910. Exactly how it will/would transfer to someone in/out of state I’m not a expert. If interested please contact YOUR SOT for clarification. 

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It’s a magnificent weapon. Obviously built on a new unused kit imported years ago. I test fired 500 rnds flawlessly cleaned it sat it aside. I bought a 1917a1 all I want. Like to sell it if someone is interested if not I’ll keep it well taken care of and comfy

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Good thing is I took the time and effort to assemble the spares, belts, cans, loader, gunners kit ect that today would take a lot of time and $’s. For what I’m asking is a loss. 

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When I test fired it and drained the jacket huge flops of cosmoline ran out

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Form 4s to dealers seem to be running 60 - 90 days. 

Not always,

I've got one that was filed OVER A YEAR AGO.

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sticknrudder, DAM RIGHT ITS A NICE PIECE ! speaks for itself LOUD AND PROUD . BOBS people do it as good as possible. the 08 side plate is not that uncommon. there was a time when the RUSSIAN gun would bring DOUBLE or MORE than the more common MG-08's all over the place. the C+R status is controlled strictly by the paperwork and how the manufacturer info is entered. BY regulation ANY C+R must remain in EXACTLY THE SAME CONFIGURATION as originally built to qualify. C+R's and be killed many ways but paper work is the main culprit. I have an exact match to your gun that has transferred as a C+R several times. its a fact BOTH the RUSSIANS AND GERMANS changed each others guns in every possible way. the GERMAN examples are easier to document, but in reality its the very first form entering the weapon in the registry that carry's the most weight. in this post, I brought up several things that could take many pages to explain fully.  Don't be discouraged. its not the gun its the available MONEY ! all the huge collections coming to market the past 3 years has used it all up . post WW II guns like M-16 / M-60 are still hot but the WW II and earlier took a hit. in 2002 it was almost impossible to find a Vickers for sale and in 2013 one collection dumped more than 40 at one time they are just now starting to recover and bring more money but still 30% below normal. so don't worry, the right guy WILL come along.  


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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It is still C+R IMO since the "plate" is the firearm by atf definition and is over 50 years old (as I'm sure the registration forms would prove)   Configuration appears nowhere in atf's current published regulations cut and pasted as of today.  Additionally it clearly meets 3.C.

Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

  1.  

    a. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

  2.  

    b. Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

  3.  

    c. Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

     

    The market for early  heavy MG's  has fallen the way of Model T collections and is never coming back based on general suppy/demand curves.  There is literally tons of money in the current MG marketplace, but no interest.  Proportionally, the heavier and older it is, the bigger the discount. 08/15's are now close in value to MG08's, at one time MG08's were at least 4x more money, now they are just simply 4x heavier.  HTH

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Is it on a form 3? IF so I have a 1928 Thompson also on a form 3. email me at toneitup@aol.com

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1 hour ago, Tonetiup said:

Is it on a form 3? IF so I have a 1928 Thompson also on a form 3. email me at toneitup@aol.com

It's a form 4 transfer.

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18 hours ago, mike todd said:

sticknrudder, DAM RIGHT ITS A NICE PIECE ! speaks for itself LOUD AND PROUD . BOBS people do it as good as possible. the 08 side plate is not that uncommon. there was a time when the RUSSIAN gun would bring DOUBLE or MORE than the more common MG-08's all over the place. the C+R status is controlled strictly by the paperwork and how the manufacturer info is entered. BY regulation ANY C+R must remain in EXACTLY THE SAME CONFIGURATION as originally built to qualify. C+R's and be killed many ways but paper work is the main culprit. I have an exact match to your gun that has transferred as a C+R several times. its a fact BOTH the RUSSIANS AND GERMANS changed each others guns in every possible way. the GERMAN examples are easier to document, but in reality its the very first form entering the weapon in the registry that carry's the most weight. in this post, I brought up several things that could take many pages to explain fully.  Don't be discouraged. its not the gun its the available MONEY ! all the huge collections coming to market the past 3 years has used it all up . post WW II guns like M-16 / M-60 are still hot but the WW II and earlier took a hit. in 2002 it was almost impossible to find a Vickers for sale and in 2013 one collection dumped more than 40 at one time they are just now starting to recover and bring more money but still 30% below normal. so don't worry, the right guy WILL come along.  

Spot on about the WWII guns, and all water cooled guns are WAY down, except for rare original Maxim's. The only thing lower than WC belt feds right now are pre-mays.  This gun is listed at a fair price considering the accessories.  Were it on a Form3, I'd probably buy it. 

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On 1/29/2020 at 1:12 AM, mike todd said:

sticknrudder, DAM RIGHT ITS A NICE PIECE ! speaks for itself LOUD AND PROUD . BOBS people do it as good as possible. the 08 side plate is not that uncommon. there was a time when the RUSSIAN gun would bring DOUBLE or MORE than the more common MG-08's all over the place. the C+R status is controlled strictly by the paperwork and how the manufacturer info is entered. BY regulation ANY C+R must remain in EXACTLY THE SAME CONFIGURATION as originally built to qualify. C+R's and be killed many ways but paper work is the main culprit. I have an exact match to your gun that has transferred as a C+R several times. its a fact BOTH the RUSSIANS AND GERMANS changed each others guns in every possible way. the GERMAN examples are easier to document, but in reality its the very first form entering the weapon in the registry that carry's the most weight. in this post, I brought up several things that could take many pages to explain fully.  Don't be discouraged. its not the gun its the available MONEY ! all the huge collections coming to market the past 3 years has used it all up . post WW II guns like M-16 / M-60 are still hot but the WW II and earlier took a hit. in 2002 it was almost impossible to find a Vickers for sale and in 2013 one collection dumped more than 40 at one time they are just now starting to recover and bring more money but still 30% below normal. so don't worry, the right guy WILL come along.  

The F4 under “Manufacturer” states “Germany DWM 1918 WWI” then the serial # FYI 

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Since I am being referenced in this thread for having taken a position concerning the non-C+R status of the 1910 in question, I'll say this for the record: the transferor of an MG stated to be an MG08 on the transfer form is legally attesting to the veracity of the information in the form that the gun identified on the form is an MG08 specifically to comply with the legal privilege of a direct transfer to a licensee acting under the legal guidelines of his FFL03. The 1910 is NOT an MG08 and the transferor is falsely attesting that it is and in doing so is in complicity with the transferee. Transfer forms are legal documents and, as stated in the signature box, carry penalties for false representation of the information on the form should the unlikely circumstance occur where it was legally challenged. 
Well, you can say that lots of incorrectly identified MGs are transferred with the forms signed and approved by ATF. Not so fast. The saturation of the NFRTR with incorrect IDs on transfer forms due to ignorance when originally registered is entirely different. The use of the MG08 registered sideplate to construct a 1910 is a privilege granted by ATF and not a perpetuated error in MG ID from years ago. The maker and the buyer are both completely in full knowledge of the variance for the substitution which has been allowed by ATF as a concession. The concession does not include deliberate false representation of the ID of the gun for the purposes of accessing another legal privilege. 
The converted MG08 registered sideplate MGs will process through ATF with no trouble as C+R simply because the examiners never see the hardware. The NFRTR verifies that the specific serial number on the form is valid for an MG08 that qualifies for C+R transfer so the transfer is approved. Would the examiner approve the transfer if they understood that the gun was no longer the MG08 identified in the NFRTR?  
When's the last time you saw a piece of sheet metal expel a projectile by the force of an explosive propellant? Never, right? By ATF's law, the definition of a firearm does not include a piece of sheet metal. The catagory of legal fiction that a registered sideplate is a "firearm" for purposes of inclusion in another catagory of legal comstruction is a non-starter. While only one requirement for eligibility for C+R status is necessary for inclusion, violation of one catagory does not  automatically invoke another for which the gun might comply.
The music for dancing on this pinhead is continuous and fun for those who have no exposure to risk. Many buyers of NFA have an exceedingly low tolerance for real or imagined risk and will not buy NFA if there is the perception of risk. While the risk of legal challenge to transferring a sideplate 1910 as a C+R MG08 is exceedingly low to non-existent, there is a legitimate issue with the attestwtion on the form. This and my other points are sufficient for many buyers to perceive risk and is why I oppose any and all rationalizations that are claimed to be valid for transferring a converted registered sideplate 1910 as C+R eligible. FWIW

 

 

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What Bob said....I’ve explained the issue to anyone that’s asked. Thanks for the thorough explanation. 

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BTT price drop

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1 hour ago, stiknruddr said:

BTT price drop

OK, Where do I send the check?!

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