tallen

NFA Rules on LE Trades

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We are an 01 FFL with SOT. We have a police department that wants to trade in their unregistered machine guns for other rifles. What needs to be done to take in their trades? I have heard several opinions. Do they need to be cut at the PD, documented and ATF notification? The NFA branch said we would use Form 5 (2 different calls and 2 different people). I thought we could bring them to our shop and cut the receivers there, no forms. Log them in, cut them, then log them out as destroyed. Does anybody know for sure? 

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Tell us more about these "unregistered machine guns".  Were they confiscations?  Were they duty weapons?  Were they acquired from another department?  Were they acquired from Uncle Sugar?  Before you destroy any "unregistered machine guns", make doubly sure they are truly unregistered.  Any PD can call BATF and get the status of their weapons.  Get that status in writing.

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A F5 won't work - it needs a birth certificate first.  The only route for that on an unregistered is a F10 and those don't go into commerce since 1974 so the F5 gets disapproved.  Cops can use your torch, no problem there.  No need for you to log them in since you are not taking control of them (and have no reason or avenue to do so).  The LE agency notifying ATF of destroying unregistered firearms is pointless since ATF has no record of them.  If the guns are registered, the agency can notify or not, it's optional but may save future generations a panic attack thinking their machineguns were stolen.

Yeah, cutting up USG loaner guns not good for the PD so it might be worth asking what they are, where they came from. Cops are aces at losing forms.  M16s or M14s should make them a bit cautious about cutting. Inquiring by serial # is the most efficient way and if registered getting a copy should not be difficult.  Last I knew, there was a waiting list and if an agency opted to dispose, they would get directions from the same state property office that hooked them up on where to send them.

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They are HK416 duty rifles.

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Probably registered;  Forms hidden in a cabinet or trashed shortly after purchase.

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1 hour ago, tallen said:

They are HK416 duty rifles.

As I indicated previously, have the PD contact BATF and request copies of their registration documentation.  BATF will be happy to assist them.  Don't do a damned thing without that paperwork.  Always cover your a$$ when dealing with law enforcement agencies and/or the feds.  Document everything.

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Posted (edited)

Going thru this process now myself. Here’s what I’ve learned:

Previous replies correct in that you should not commit to anything without a copy of the ATF registration documents (Forms 5 or 10).

If the guns are registered to the PD on a Form 10, you’re SOL.  The guns can only transfer directly to another gov’t agency, to ATF, or be destroyed by the PD.

If the guns are on a Form 5, they can transfer to you on a Form 5, and, assuming they are all Post May machineguns:  

-If you want to keep them as sales samples, you’ll need demo letter(s).

-If you are going to destroy the guns, indicate that on the Form 5 and no demo letter is needed.  No further transfers will be approved.  After Form 5 is approved, destroy the guns, send letter to ATF certifying that, and then you can sell off parts.

I’m a 07/02, not sure if there are any differences for a 01/03.  I PM’ed you my contact info if you want to discuss.  Hope this helps!

Ben

 

 

Edited by Nitzel
More info

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Thank you everybody! This is very helpful. 

1 person likes this

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TALLEN, I know I am a bit late and you got the right scoop from TONTO'S side kick among others any how . but being newer modern weapons I would bet the ARE registered. you don't mention the location or any thing about the dept involved. in the past dealing with Arizona agency's we always "helped" them cut things up in some back room even if we had to move all the mops and brooms, while someone  observed. once in the 60's at a Pomona Great western show 2 LA county deputy's tried to cut an AK they seized with a hack saw in the trunk of their prowler. in the sun with the vests etc, they over heated and I had to finish it up. I DONT IMAGINE anything like that could happen these days !  in any case 416's will be an easy deal but the paperwork is somewhere and really should be cleared up!  GLAD TO HEAR SOMEONE IS STILL MANAGING TO WORK WITH "THOSE GUY'S" !  GOOD FIND !


I only accept postal money orders. contact me DIRECTLY before sending any funds                                           email  myoldiron@outlook.com        

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Thank you Mike! That is the route we are taking. Find the documentation first.

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Those HK416 parts kits are pretty valuable and if the PD demills them, have them do it the right way or kiss your resale value goodbye. Those HK416 uppers fetch a nice price and there's plenty of guys looking for LPK on due to these BRN-4 lowers.  

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As it turns out, they are in fact on Form 5. So, can they transfer them to us on Form 5? 

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35 minutes ago, tallen said:

As it turns out, they are in fact on Form 5. So, can they transfer them to us on Form 5? 

Get a love letter from another LE agency and a few can be transferred to you on a Form 5.

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The disposing agency shouldn't be the one providing the letter and the agency that does provide the letter needs to articulate the need for a number higher than one.  If you are bored enough to read Ruling 2002-5, note there is a discrepancy between the summary and actual text.  Until summer 2008, NFA Branch went by the summary but switched to the text which  specifies justification for more than one.  

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More info on these. They are Post May and on Form 5.

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That's what would be expected.  It's somewhat unusual for modern firearms to be floating unregistered or in F10 purgatory.

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