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17 hours ago, Ryo said:Sorry, I missed the word "from". Reading is key.
Yes fill out the first page and send it in. Should take about 4 months for approval, though some people have reported it being sooner.
Thanks again!
Thank you both. But yes, I meant Form 4 FROM individual TO a dealer. Thank you for the replies!
Hello,
If you are a SOT, and you are transferring an NFA item to you from an individual on a Form 4, what needs to be submitted to the ATF other than the completed Form 4? And what sections of the Form 4 are applicable? For example, do you have to list all your employees under responsible persons? I haven't done one of these since they updated the forms, so just hoping to get info from someone who has done this recently and correctly. Thanks!!!
1 hour ago, Bwanalewis said:Thanks for the information. I know I have seen some names that put these together like ERB and DLO. I guess they used new "tubes" with WWII parts kits. Or should I look for a WWII gun, or does it really matter...
Chad
Depends on what you want to do with it. If the historical value of a C&R gun has meaning for you, than pay the extra money and get the C&R STEN. If an investment is what you’re interested in, than pay the extra money and get the C&R because, as stated already, they generally sell for a bit more (though all FAs steadily increase in value over time) And collectors are after those. If you just want to go to the range and shoot, then it may not be important to have a C&R gun. Whatever meets your needs and makes you happy, man.
While I appreciate your effort to broker some peace, you're still wrong. You can get away with it in your example because your have simplified the problems to two objects, a barrel and a bolt in a single axis. You're not going to be "wrong" if you insist on using the definition you're promoting in the example you've been using. But it does show a you have a very limited understanding.
I'll try again. I bet someone on this web site has a prosthetic. A war veteran, or someone in an accident,.....someone. And we'll say it was an above the knee amputation and they have a trans-femoral prosthesis. Alignment is one of the features of a prosthetic that needs to be adjusted. Prosthetic alignment is DEFINED as the relative POSITIONAL RELATIONSHIP among the socket, knee joint, and foot, and you adjust prosthetic alignment by altering the angle and/or the distance. So don't be like the other guy and tell me that distance has no role in alignment, because that's just wrong. And if he insists it is wrong, I hope he never needs a prosthetic, because it won't work right. It's about the relationship between two or more objects in a system and not just linearity, that is an oversimplification.
If you're not trying to tell me I'm wrong (because I'm not), then what you're really doing is saying that alignment in a system with more than two reference points and angles is different than what we're talking about with a barrel and a bolt because it's a single plane and we're really just concerned with the distance. OK. But if you accept that in a more complex, multi-axis system that that alignment IS appropriate and IS the relationship between different points that are not all linear...then why is it all of sudden incorrect in simple system? It's not, because you're still talking about relationships between points whether you have two points or twenty points. Whether you have one plane or multiple planes. There's no definition that places that limitation on alignment.
What it comes down to is you (and others) don't like where and how I used alignment. OK. Fine. If the way you describe it (which I never said was wrong) is how it makes sense to you and gets you to where you can safely operate your M2, do your thing. But that doesn't make me wrong nor is stretching the use of the word.
BOTTOM-LINE: Learn about headspacing and timing so you don't f**k up your M2.
Once again, you're hung up on a limited definition. Alignment is not limited to JUST straight, perpendicular lines, that's a narrow, oversimplified interpretation of the definition. But then if all you work with is bolts and barrels, maybe that's why you see it that way. Frankly, you're helping make my argument for my by agreeing that distance can play a role in alignment, especially when the distance of two parts is important in the operation of the system. You can call it whatever you want. It doesn't change the broader definition of alignment, and it definitely doesn't explain alignment in a 3-D system.
You're also wrong about wheel alignment because it's not always possible to perfectly align rear wheels. That's the whole purpose of thrust alignment over 4 wheel alignment. So you can't get the wheels in perfect straight lines...which is EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. You position front wheels according to the positioning of the rear wheels, in order to get the vehicle to drive straight. Just like you position a barrel in relation to a bolt face to get the M2 to fire properly Once again, thank you.
And I have no idea what you're trying to say about knees, but I assure you that there is normal and abnormal alignment in the human musculoskeletal system. But I like your approach. When in doubt, just say "he's wrong."
At least what you had to say about the M2 wasn't all wrong. Although the part about "gun banners" running the ranges that won't allow .50 caliber was kind of ridiculous. Especially when you go on to cite other reasons not to allow .50 cal shooting right after you said that.
You may have worked on hundreds of rifle barrels, but that doesn't mean you have good diction. In this case, your understanding of alignment is limited. And really, do you have to be "that guy?" Does it really matter if I say "fires a weapon" vs "activates a weapon?" They kinda mean the same thing, even though one is more commonly used. But let's pretend you're not invested in 2-dimensional thinking where you have to be all correct and I have to be completely wrong.
You're right, alignment can, and often does colloquially refer to objects in a straight line. I think it's great you threw out a few TMs and FMs. But see above and also consider that there is a book you forgot to mention. It's called a a dictionary, and if you can get past that first part about straight lines, you will see that that alignment also refers to relative positioning of two or more objects. Notice how there is a comma after some words? Or even multiple numbers underneath a given definition? You're supposed to read all of that. Besides what do you do when you have a headspace that is too loose or tight on an M2? You screw or unscrew the barrel and put the gauge in the T-slot between the face of the bolt and rear of the barrel until the GO end enters the T-slot and the and the NO-GO end doesn't. Meaning....SURPRISE...you have just changed the position of one object relative to another (and in a single plane for that matter) which meets the definition of alignment. Mechanically speaking, you are still aligning because you have two mechanical objects that must be in very particular positions in order for the system to work properly. Another example is wheel alignment. Especially thrust alignments where only the front wheels are adjusted. In a situation where you may not be able to adjust the rear wheels, and where one may be completely straight, and the other slightly off (for example), you adjust the front wheels only and get them as close as possible to the thrust line, or the average of where the two wheels point. Certainly, not everything is nicely "lined up" in this case, nor is that the purpose. They are positioned relative to one another to produce a desired outcome, which meets my definition of alignment. Oh, but the distance the doesn't change between the wheels you say, you're just changing angles....because you seem to be an individual who favors 2 dimensional thinking meaning you see yourself as only all right or all wrong. But a synonym for angle is angular distance, or the degree of separation between two objects. And while angles are measured in radians, which is just a ratio of the length of a circular arc to the length of the initial side of the angle....length (or distance) kinda does play a role.
How about a more complex system, such as varus alignment in the knee in medial compartment osteoarthritis? Medial meniscus extrusion is often the result of medial meniscus posterior root tears, and medial meniscus extrusion is critical factor in progressive knee OA. Varus alignment of the knee can be affected by factors such a ligament laxity (meaning the ligament stretches and lengthens), cartilage volume, and bone morphology which includes subclassifications such as medial meniscus extrusion. Want to know what affects varus malalignment and OA progression in the knee significantly, especially hip-knee-ankles angle, medial proximal tibial angle, joint line convergence angle, and percentage of mechanical axis? A medial meniscus extrusion DISTANCE of 3mm or more. And that's one of the ways candidates for high tibial osteotomy are determined. A great example of how alignment is affected by distance.
Wanna talk about spines next? Cervical sagittal translation > 3.5mm (a measure of distance) OR intersegmental angle > 11 degrees meets criteria for spinal instability. I'll spare you that one.
So evidently distance/length IS a factor in complex systems, but you're somehow arguing that it is not in a simpler system? That seems silly. Or you just don't like my word choice because it's not what you would have chosen and decided to put me on blast.
But hey, apologies to the original poster. You were asking about M2s, not trying to see me argue with some guy that got butt-hurt over my word choice.
If alignment is defined as the proper positioning or state of adjustment of parts (the bolt face and cartridge) in relation to each other (and what do ya know...it is!) than alignment is an appropriate noun.
Picked one up a few years ago that was made during WWII. If you get an older one, (some newer models have fixed headspacing) make sure you know what you're doing with headspace and timing. Headspace (if you are not familiar and haven't fired older M2s) is the alignment of the bolt and cartridge. If they're out of alignment, the gases that build up can cause a round to fire when you don't intend one to, or worse, when the round is in the chamber. That can cause major damage to the gun, and seriously hurt you. Timing also had to be right so the gun fires while recoiling. If the timing is off, it will not operate correctly. So it that regard, it can be kind of a pain to setup sometimes. Don't rush it though...for the reasons previously stated.
I'd say another consideration would be location. If you're rural, and have lots of wide open space, no problem. If you're urban, it might be hard to find a place to shoot it. A lot of ranges don't like big caliber weapons like that because it is either unsafe on their range, or it just tears up their berms. Make sure if you want to shoot it that you have a place nearby that will allow it, or be willing to take a little trip in order to do so.
Ammo is definitely pricey. You could shoot a lot more of something else for the same price. And you're right about the weight. If you're young and fit, it's not as big a deal, but as you get older you definitely notice it more, and tolerate it less.
I'm a big history person, so there's that nostalgia attached to having the longest serving weapon system in the US arsenal. That certainly says something (in my opinion) about it. Is it one of those firearms that cooler to say you have than to actually have it? Maybe. Only you can decide that. But they can be fund for cheaper than other types of FA because of how big, heavy, cumbersome and expensive to shoot it is. If you're in the dollar range for an NFA item like that, ask yourself why you're looking at an M2. If you have solid reasons, go for it. It it's because it would look cool on the range because it's a .50 BMG machine gun, I'd say reconsider. You probably won't take it out as much as your other FAs.
I'm sure others have opinions as well. Just my two cents.
-David
2
Ya know, so many problems would be avoided by just communicating with others. The OP said this guy seemed to be deliberately ducking his messages and calls. Don't do to that. Everyone runs into problems once in a while, and most people are reasonable when it comes to them. Especially if you have a good reputation amongst the group members. Work something out. Come up with a payment plan. Establish a date when you will be able to pay. As long as you don't keep making excuses, a lot of people will be fine with that. Otherwise return the parts. But don't ignore the guy when he reaches out. Thats probably one of the worst things you can do and it will undoubtedly risk a reputation.
-David
You know, a lot of people have been urging M-16 or AR-15, but if pre-samples are an option for you and you can find one, SAR-80 might not be a bad way to go. It's a lot like an AR-18 and under 10K usually.
-David
Mike,
Thanks for sharing your wisdom all these years. We’re all behind you here. All the best!
-David
1
These days, you kind of take what you can get in a lot instances when it comes to 8mm. With some exceptions. Like Turkish. Never run Turkish in an MG.
I wonder if it wouldn't just be easier to convert your 34 to 308. That's a popular option for a lot of 42 owners/shooters, and one I probably need to more seriously consider for mine looking ahead. It looks like 34 folks do it too, but check with Mike Todd about something like that and take his word over mine. I know from reading Mike's posts that he loves the 34.
-David
Ryo, this is actually a succinct, user friendly reference, so appreciate you doing the research and sharing. I personally have been advised by several people to use the Romanian surplus, and I have done that with great results, though this has been in MG08/15 and MG42.
I’d also be curious to hear what your conclusion is on Ecuadorian 8mm surplus. That comes up periodically as well.
-David
Well I went ahead and got the .303 parts after reading what you guys said. Everything seemed to fit into the 7mm marked received...up until I had to put the bolt/firing pin assembly in. Like you said, it fit just fine onto the oprod. But it barely gets onto those tracks on either side of the upper receiver and just stops moving. I tried putting it on upside down just to see if there was an issue with the tracks, and it seems to move in that orientation (though it stops for obvious reasons because that’s not the way it’s supposed to be inserted).
Bad bolt? Should I try filing down the metal a bit? I don’t see any obvious spurs or other potential obstructions.
I'll try adding image URLs if that helps clarify what I'm talking about.
https://postimg.cc/Q9XbpDLr
https://postimg.cc/p9P8SBsf
Greetings,
I have little to no experience with these old guns, but my question to those of you who do is whether the calibers are interchangeable? Can you switch out parts for what was originally a 7mm so that it can fire .303 or 8mm for example? In other words, could you take a parts kit for one caliber and put it into a gun that is currently set up for another caliber?
Thanks!
-David
My wife and I decided to be 01/03s as an LLC. She’s also an attorney. What was said above is absolutely true. You can cease business as an FFl, but can continue to have the LLC recognized as an active, existing legal entity UNLESS you specifically designed the LLC as being for firearms. What most people do to get around that is define their LLC as existing for “any lawful purpose.” That way if you decide you no longer want to deal in firearms and you want to sell shoes instead, you don’t have to create a whole new LLC.
But yes, your LLC can retain the dealer samples even after you give the FFL.
-David
Steve,
First, the situation you are in really stinks. My wife and I are 01/03s, and you don’t magically have a pre-86 become transferable. Sadly, but not unexpectedly, the government also failed you because they should have caught it when the transfer was processing. Be that as it may, here you are, and what to do?
I talked to my wife about your post. In addition to loving firearms with me, she’s also an attorney. We’re going to differ with some of the others and say that you have a breach of contract issue as much as you have an NFA problem. From the NFA side, I’d be worried about being in possession of a dealer sample when you don’t have a SOT...or if you do now, it’s not registered appropriately to that SOT. But I think you can avoid a lot of that by the fact that you were 1) defrauded and 2) the ATF goofed and approved it. Nevertheless, it’s beat to get an NFA attorney and get them to help you work this out. You don’t want some overzealous agent of an LE agency trying to screw you over.
As far as the fraud/breach of contract, we think you have two options. First, you can try to rescind the contract by claiming you were fraudulently induced to buy the gun or second, you can sue for breach of contract and sue for the difference between the value of the transferable gun you thought you were getting and the value of the dealer sample you actually have. An experienced contract law attorney should be able to help you with that. Depending on where you are, we might even be able to provide a referral.
Hope this works out for you. I’m active duty Army myself with 3SFG out of Bragg. Always suck to hear about a brother getting screwed over. We work hard for the little bit of money we get as soldiers.
-David
1
There is no evidence that anything they are doing is working or will work. In S. Korea, who the authorities love to hold up as the model for combating the virus and for containment success, I can still go to a restaurant or a gym. Not so here. They use this phrase "abundance of caution" to try and outdo one another in supposed safety measures. At what point does the "cure" become worse than the disease? Short-term containments work. But they're talking about doing this for months? Insanity. Or a power grab. Or both.
I also have a FFL/SOT (01/03) but decided to maintain my C&R, which I've had for years. It's $30, or $10 a year, so its cheap. The paperwork is no big deal either. ATF has never shown much of an interest in my C&R. I will say that some 01 FFLs refuse to recognize them. I remember seeing rifle I really wanted once in a store, I think it was a GEW 98, but the guy refused to accept my C&R, so don't be surprised if you occasionally run into that. After that, I made it a habit to ensure, as often as possible, that the seller would take a C&R, especially with GB/internet sales. All in all, however, I think it's a great tool for collectors. I even used it for a few NFA items. I bought my first SMG (a Reising M50) with my C&R. Also put my first mortar on it. I say get one for yourself and if you don't like it, don't use it, you're only out $30.
What about the new Prvi Partizan 8mm? I don't have a 34, but I do have a 42 and it seems to do just fine in there.
Otherwise, the age of good, cheap 8mm are over I think. I always heard the Portuguese stuff was good, but it's so hard to find anymore. I've had a few people try and gift me Turkish and Ethiopian 8mm, but no way that goes through my 42.
-David
Charlie, how many firearms do you think would be registered under an Act like this? Pre-68 we're talking WWII and Korea vets, primarily. And while I am sure there are some family members out there that know what they have, I would think a lot don't have a clue.
I suppose that would be part of the appeal...that it wouldn't suddenly flood the system with a ton of new weapons to be registered. And the historian in me thinks that if you can save even a few it's completely worth it.
-David
I showed this thread to my wife (an attorney) and she thought it met the definition of larceny. She also Googled him and found all his charity fraud. Apparently he had to return $9 million he stole in the name of this charity, but most it will never be repaid because he "can't pay."
I say go get him, man. I know that's easy for me to say not having to deal with the police and all, but he sounds like a total shitbag. He's out there making us all look bad. Just look at his webpage: https://davidkenik.org. He loves firearms and photography.
-David
2
When Virginia enacts am assault weapons ban, does that also affect those who own MGs in that State? Virginia requires registration of MGs at the State level, so I’m guessing they’ll have a pretty easy time running those down if AWB extends to transferable MGs.
Premay MG42/53’s has anyone seen one recently?
in NFA / Semi Forum
Posted
They’re out there (pre-May MG42s). I happen to have one.