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see how fast things can change ? we went from a totally uncontrolled "UPPER" to a RECEIVER for a NFA weapon we would hope is in the registry. TWO COMPLETLY DIFFERENT ANSWERS I'M afraid. addeing the length to the rec would change the model of the weapon from a M-11 to a M-11/9 and I DO NOT believe that would pass. it certainly would be ok to weld what ever it takes to repair the "catastrophic damage" UNLESS ITS THE SIDE WITH THE SERIAL NUMBER ! if that was the case, I would send detailed pics of the damage AND the repair piece for PRIOR APPROVAL b-4 doing anything. no matter what is involved, because of the prior problems with the macs and those "DREAMERS" I would DOC every step with pics for your records.
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RL if those are what i think they are (FND) I WANT THEM ! hell even if not I have an empty spot in one of my MISC drawers so , HOW much landed to 78006 ? mike
FRANK, all my recent approvals (9) were in hand 7-9 days after the date at the bottom of the forms, so they were all sent right out. max wait for approval was 8 months for C+R and less than 55 days for the 8 modern arms !
THIS issue has haunted the field like a black cloud since passage of the 68 gun control act. however it seldom came up until the new policy of tracing all new form 4's all the way back to the original forms putting them in the registry prior to a new transfer. sometime around 2006 / 2008 when i heard of the first one. the new policy went into effect while training all the new examiners at the branch. NORMALLY any thing with a restriction had a red stamp stating such at the bottom along with a box checked for "exceptions". PERSONALLY I relied on the DEALER and if an individual always demanded to see the old forms and relied on "prior transfers". the "NEW TRACE" has also caused quite a few problems in the C+R class. it seems little attention was paid to the new forms unless something was obviously wrong. as a consequence ,many "DETAILS" got added / omitted on new forms. I changed several to "RECEIVER ONLY" from machine gun myself on any for non original new receivers simply because its the ONLY CONTROLLED PART and never had one kicked back. I bought 50/60 samples from ARMEX alone , all were pre may , but few were checked or had the red restrictions stamped at the bottom. several guns in my collection as C+R 's had been transfered any times b-4 me as C+R's but when I recently sold them DENIED and found not to meet the criteria required. several BREN GUNS and VICKERS GUNS , I sold recently required a model change to match entry paper work rather than what was on my forms. BOTTOM LINE ? I am not aware of any way to be absolutely positive a weapon is transferable or even a C+R prior to you owning it. I believe all searches are by serial number and only the registered owner can access them. so TRUST is EVEN MORE IMPORTANT THESE DAYS.
SORRY, I never ran into that head stamp and cant answer . if you will send me a pic of the actual base, I will see what I can learn. the only corrosive 7.62 x 51 or what ever you want to call the .308 nato round I ever ran into is the steel cased SELLIOR and BELIOT steel cased CZECH lots with the black primer in turquoise plain 20 rnd boxes. I thought I had pulled a major coup when I bought a 28ft pup full from a distraught trucker in 1980 so for less than .07 per rnd. my next shoot after about 1100 rounds in my saco 60 I went to sleep. next morning the gun was so corroded the op rod would not budge. almost welded in the tube, we did manage to get it free and running but there was a lot of severe permanent pits. too many producer's meant too many bad lots. I bought some SOUTH AMERICAN BALL that you could not hit a 4'x4' board at 50 ft using a good rifle!
one might consider this "nit picking" but you might want to consider editing your WTB just in case. what few actual CZECH produced BRENS went to the BRITISH for trials, a couple reside in the pattern room. any issued examples would have been lost at DUNKIRK and certainly less than 10 or so examples held as shop proofs for possible future contracts which would have all been as the BRITISH model Mk 1. the Mk II was totally designed by JOHN INGLIS as a war time expediant, cut kits were all over the place and still can be had but nice examples getting quite hard these days. either way GOOD LUCK on the search cheers mike
HITCH mounts sound neat at first, and do work but in actually restrict how you get around. mine has not seen any use in about 10 yrs or so. I built several custom mounts for movie production crews and folks over the years and have tried most anything. MY first build was a dual horse shoe base that sat on a front bumper spare for a jeep. it took a cradle made for my 20mm LAHTI and worked great for right and left or backwards if the windshield was folded. but stand alone is the only way to go for me these days.
I have seen a few PKM's with cans, but have no idea who what or where, but its certainly not out of reach. WHO ? good luck with that one I cant even get a recoil pad installed. even after you find them beware the promises. I have 2 custom rifle bids in 2 diff shops one is 15 months past promise date the other working on 7 months. both of these shops were highly recommended and made firm promises prior to shipment. these past 10 years or so the main thing I learned if you see it and its available to take in hand, buy it otherwise be prepared for anything less than promised. I know there are some good people out there that do what they say as long as you are asking for their normal type of work specialized in. custom adapters/ parts /builds BEWARE!
well one could call anything "created after the fact" a franken gun or much worse . they certainly have a place, the real deal is just too out of reach for many. even if you can afford the tariff , you gotta find it! as a matter of fact the first lot of GALIL's were made in quantity (small) using contracted VALMET receivers , the first one or two were "scrounged" and the design worked up so look at it from that prospective and make your own decision. if it works for you the heck with everyone else. I never followed and "stiched" quite a few oddballs myself that gave me great joy. cheers mike
STILL MORE! in the 90's I built a home with a walk in vault / man cave that contained several key items from my collection. it was carpeted had easy chairs , TV and several display shelves of unusual trinkets from the industry. at the entrance was an oversized wooden door , when opened it revealed a swinging bank vault door that weighed more than 3k pounds. where it traveled was exposed tinted concrete the door almost rubbed. all this was normally open day to day, and the actual vault door only closed when going away for a spell. it was quite difficult to swing and took some effort and when it seated, it would shake the 24" thick solid concrete walls of the room. right to the edge of the doorway was a set of floor to ceiling shelves . I had a BRITISH 10 round clip of ITALIAN .303 PURPLE ANULOS ammo. it fell of, hit the concrete and all 10 rounds exploded. to control the results took well over 15 minutes. and the smoke was catastrophic ! it set the carpet and one easy chair on fire, damaged several expensive firearms, my ego and my wife almost left me. WOW ! I had that event pretty well blocked off until just now, hope the shakes go away soon. PLEASE USE CARE AND DO BETTER THAN I DID ! the total dedication of my life to this stuff led to complacency and a false sense of security. every day since that, ALL the explosive, incendiary and oddball ammo is in ONE place well removed from anything else of value or importance. cheers MIKE
MORE and maybe most IMPORTANT. what you did with the torch was extremely dangerous to you and the surroundings! you got LUCKY ! I know a gent that lost one eye completely and most of the other doing that. another person I met in AZ lost his thumb and two fingers and suffered other major injury when a bullet burst the jacket burst the tank and the propane blew up. it was determined to be a CANADIAN .50 projo of some type. LOTS of surplus ammo from EUROPE and South America contained ammo that was not marked with paint and when folks were pulling the bullets they exploded with varied results. we broke down tons of bad ammo over the years and I had a few bad events doing so. I was pulling a mixed lot of GERMAN WW II that had bad primers. the lot contained what l later learned was PMKV observation rounds. a 3 color tracer for ranging and a violent incendiary explosive at the end. to protect myself, I had made my own pulling die that covered most the case in the process . when the bullet exploded I got 2 pieces of brass in the forehead and a pretty good burn. the die body was split like a shotgun wad. the danger still remains but most of the odd lot ammo has already followed its destiny still its a hard call when attempting to salvage so do your homework and know as much as possible when doing so. cheers MIKE
what you have are tracer projectiles the washer in the back, was to compress both items in the jacket, the actual element and a starting compound to start the tracer element burning. starting compounds varied to control when the trace occurred. the "bang" you heard was the ignition of what was left of the starter. little remains in most of the examples seen in the pics and maybe all gone in others so there is no way they will ignite as originally intended or at all. I never learned exactly what causes the loss but believe it to be from the powder going bad. this is a common thing with any starter that is not sealed from actual contact with the powder. surplus tracers that wont light are very common which causes some problems for the user. sometimes and not all times the tracer element will ignite when the projo hits something real hard. the heat generated lights it and it will lay there and burn. not all will do the same thing so one never knows the downrange results . this can cause fires if fired in the field. and I have seen many shooters thrown off the range when they hit a steel gong and went off not knowing they were firing tracers the USGI 30/06 red tipped tracers from WW II have all gone bad as they were not sealed. the new orange tipped rounds that followed have all been 100% for me but I have heard of a few folks having problems. the first .223/.556 tracers with red tip will seldom light when fired but again do burn if they hit a rock or something hard. you will find both red tipped and orange tipped 7.62 USGI ammo and all of it has been 100% for me the red tip was for OVER HEAD FIRE ,and ignites at the muzzle or danged close . it was designed for shooting over the troops when bailing from choppers and can be hard to find. the orange tip lights somewhere after 75 yards. most of the above problems and details also apply to the .50 cal ammo. seldom will pre 1953 red tipped light as intended. all the maroon even WW II or orange tip and later dated red tip .50 has been 100% light for me that's most of what I have experienced I a nut shell. MIKE
when considering what you want or advising folks on what they want, remember there is a huge variation out there. some folks only want the cream of the crop and don't want to fiddle. maybe just the current or recent issue's. certainly many of the weapon systems in the registry wont appeal to everyone and are meant for folks that want a little something more than noise. one of my FAV's is the JAP type 11 but no way would I advise a first time buyer to even consider it. the BREDA-30 has one of the worst raps in the trade, and almost all suffered from no use, care and are in bad condition. but when you see one in excellent condition, you will not believe the machine work , complexity and its profile. a few came in from museums and in calibers that don't need an oiled round. they run like a watch and never fail to gather a crowd at shoots. still not for everyone or the best choice for an off the charts weapon. the BRITISH PORTIVE if not messed with and correct will shoot all day and all night and never stutter is as well made as anything out there and all the parts are 4 times heavier than needed. until recently one of the lowest cost machine rifles possible. I know several that its their only machine gun. again I would never suggest it to a first timer.
rhouston8 , your correct on the conversions, my first 17 was paid for by renting it out at the range in 22 lR of all things it only took 2 weekends ! I had found a bolt so using the concept of the COLT 1911 22 conversion, I made a barrel with a expansion chamber to provide more thrust to the parts. that started insanity, it went to 38spl/357 with cast bullets shotgun powder less cost than .22 shells. 7.62 x39 was no problem , but altering the links very hard. every major non magnum rifle cal came followed. many "experts" said it couldn't be done but I pioneered the sale of 7.62 x 54 conversions for BRNGS in the US. TROY at the brl exchange had a pending order with me, I could not complete and I ended up turning it all over to him. FANTASTIC GUY and he did great with it. the conversion that gave me the most satisfaction was the 1919 in .410 shotgun! the planes at BIG SANDY didn't stand a chance! you guys out there with VICKERS guns that want to use .308 should contact board member M1919a6 ! he converts low cost parts and the WORK! another fantastic guy. when we first met he was active in NFA but seemed kind of bored with it all. he had just bought his first W/C and the BUG BIT! now he cant get enough of the old weird stuff! and loves making things for them , very creative. wish we had more like him in the trade.
WHAT you need to remember is the ATF is only responsible for controlling FIREARMS in order to protect public safety. once a weapon has been legally destroyed, it is no longer a firearm, just scrap metal. the hangnail comes back to life when one make's the first attempt to put it back together, NOW you are manufacturing a firearm and it may or may not be a machine gun. the act of manufacturing is the use of ANY bonding agent. IE welding, epoxy, JB-weld, wire, strapping et all! I observed in video an early 2 cut Mk-II BREN mounted on a tripod fire almost 700 rnds without fail that was held together with tie wire b-4 the wire broke! and then it just failed to feed. when using scrap metal that came from a firearm, the first act must be to install some type of permanent denial to prevent the unaltered internals from functioning. say what you may and interpret what you like, I know the above to be fact, confirmed by active ATF agents in the field. in 1987 I bought 250 cut BREN's the first time then a week later 50 POLISH dual 1-cut RPD in chests. some of the buyers got themselves in trouble. that BREN was a working MG less than 24 hours after it left my home, word got around and within 2 weeks the visits started! I was NEVER implicated other than being the source of the material. more than 100 legit samples from my kits were seized from SOT's and examined then returned. 2 civilians were also involved , but I never got word of the results for them, I would imagine it went bad because they were not haunting the shows or shoots anymore
MORE on the FAL auto sears! we just applied a number and logo on 25 or so factory FAL auto sears and did no alterations. the denial came after they found so many other wrong activity in the PHX area. I don't know what went on else where , but I looked at LOT of very dark grey registrations. the most laughable were the full sheets of plate with scribed outlines of 1919's and M-2's with serial numbers. we actually got a in your face personal inspection because the number's were so high. they took notes (she) and we got the denial by letter with no explanation. the first request for why was" the FAL receiver requires a major alteration to accept said device resulting in a machine gun of and by itself. I argued they were drop ins for the G-series and the early STEYR just needed a ejector block change in writing. denied again stating I was wrong. I replied with pics of both. final denial stated " the mentioned variations were so rare and valuable they would not normally be considered as candidates for such use. my response stated more than 1800, G series known and confirmed by ATF records while the STEYR quantity was unknown, received a copy of the previous denial. we did mange to get 2 ea PARA and standard FALS done as registered receivers, but all my other's in hand were G-series and I would not sacrifice them to the registry never dreaming the value would get where it is. I have added 6 NFA FALS to the collection since 2013. the 2 converted examples were $10k ea 3-others are BELGIUM army originals and much more. somehow I managed to snag an original ARGENTINE army issue para for $10k at auction and still in shock about that one it might be the only one in the registry!
SORRY his "handle is "SHERMAN3
SPRAT, contact SHERMAN , a long time member and as good as they come. he had several crates at a great price and may still have some left. I bought a couple and it all worked and ran fine. good luck mike
NO WORRIES, not scooping I just want a shot at any tough parts or ammo. old habits are tough to break and we need support for several over worked guns we shoot endlessly. we can make most anything in mounts etc in house so the hitch mount is safe from me. I could make you one in short order that would look GI , but the freight would kill ya
TODAY IN 86 ? I seriously doubt if I could have answered this question a week after then my world was so frantic. I don't recall how much notice we had, but it was not MUCH! honestly when I first heard of the HUGHES AMENDMENT , I just "laughed it off" my thoughts were no way would "they" get away with it. long term switch board short cuts at the NRA were obliterated, SAM STIEGER had slept in my home and would not answer his phone and I completely ignored my 10 stores, 116 employees, customers, wife and kids once I realized it was DONE. all the local cronies and SOT's were in frantic back and forth over details and everyone had their own idea about what would "fly" some laid out full 4ft x 20 ft plates of steel and just stamped numbers after scribing a shape. the same with full lengths of DOM tubing. PHX and TUSCON steel vendors were cleaned out. wanting the most for time spent, first I stripped my vault of all but one example of assault rifle ,next was going thru containers looking for Hk and Cetme packs , FAL auto sears. my licensee made Hk sears and AR drop ins when waiting for guns or parts and we only slept if unable to function. 25 FAL auto sears were the last item and did not pass the ATF "review" so were denied. many local MFG'rs also were denied with the full sheets and tubing. following the deadline I just ignored most of it, but was talked out of many singles as favors etc until about 1990. then the value had hit and miss for a bit. I had to get hard nosed about the "favor's" when Hk pac's hit $2000. even then I felt that it would be repealed , but with all the support for the GUN OWNERS PROTECTION ACT, the NRA and sympathetic SENATORS bailed. for more than 12 years my gun show tables had a LARGE sign " protect the 2nd amendment buy a machine gun" knowing that as long as that was possible they would never dare bother anything else, because it would prove the hidden agenda to ban ALL firearms. WOW was I wrong with that !
RYO, THANK THE LORD FOR THAT! I still have one "pending" more than 30 month's and the only reply is " its still under review" ? since 2013 more than 35 transfers and several took more than 18 months. I concede a lot of the hold up was due to items being at the end of transferable production for the company and deceased license holder's, many were first time transfer's of amnesty weapons and wording on the forms. everything after 2017 was reasonable and when this last hold out is done I believe the system will perform "reasonable" but I don't see the return of 2 week form 4's ever again. the next big change has yet to occur , but inevitable and that will be actual pics of the weapon required on the form. this has been mentioned many times over the years. also due to the old regs concerning "pre samples" I predict that will end and a "grace period" allowed to enter them in the registry as transferables. they just have NO IDEA where a major portion are. my crooked brother has abandoned more than 20 to storage units under 2 SOT's and never had to answer for them. I also know of several others with the same fate. of course that will happen only if the right to possess remains but I wont live to see it.
after several off and on attempts to get the straight answer on this electronic form -4 issue, I got the scoop from my dealer. they forward a copy of the forms to the SILENCER SHOPS electronic data transfer system. they keep the prints on file and use and have the forms signed via the net. the explanation still left me a bit confused , but it certainly works.
pm sent mike todd
AM180 help
in NFA / Semi Forum
Posted
DEAN, when E&L made your receiver did they have the exact barrel you are using? he has always been right on with everyone I know. IS it a semi or a POST SAMPLE?