timelinex

Right.....I think where most people go wrong is the uncomfortableness with the idea that "intent" in others can only be assumed and it is not provable. So they start dreaming up extreme scenarios where mal intent is imposed onto them just by owning X, Y, or Z.......But feels a bit like missing the forest for the trees when overall the biggest things that will attract that mal intent is having a firearm in the first place... I wonder what actually ended up happening to the guy that you mentioned. Did he actually get convicted of the nfa violation? It makes 100% sense why he was charged... Afterall, the configuration that the officer sees makes it clear that there is a high chance he was on his way to use it in an illegal configuration. However proving in court is different animal. It seems like any attorney worth anything would be able to get that dropped since he did own legal configurations at home. But of course I am not a lawyer. Even so, it's a much more clear line to possession of illegal NFA item there than the examples in this thread.

Has anyone known anyone to get a constructive possession charge for ridiculous situations as outlined in this thread? I'm not talking about a friend of a friend through the grapevine rumour. I am talking about actually know the person (so it's not rumour). Or is there proof in news or court cases where this happens? The closest thing I've found is not locking up guns when a felon is in the house, addon's to violent crimes like in gang violence and then some dude that sold a gun with accessories that clearly made it illegal. Those are some VERY clear cut situations. From my understanding, it's not some specially tailored law where the govt automatically portray your intent for having some no no parts. It's just using the basic "constructive possession" idea in general law, where there is no direct evidence of you possessing something but rather the prosecutor has to construct your possession. That's on them to actually convince a jury that the only reason you could reasonably have this item is so you possess something illegal for you to possess. Example: Having multiple short barrelled uppers isn't illegal , as long as you have one SBR lower. Just because they COULD be put on a non registered SBR, doesn't mean it's constructive possession. No more so than them nailing you for constructive possession because you have the ability to easily take the upper off your SBR and put it on your Non-sbr. Whats stopping you from constructing a illegal SBR there? An extra 10 seconds it takes to take the upper off your SBR? On the other hand, if you have only non-registered lowers and a bunch of short barrelled uppers... It's much more clear what is going on. Having a m16 lower parts group, when you have an m16 going through the system and none of your ar15's have a 3rd hole, shouldn't give you any trouble. Why would it? Show me one person where it has. It's clear why you have it and it is for legal purposes. On the other hand, do you have an m16 lower parts group and a spare ar15 lower that you drilled a 3rd hole into? Well it's not illegal to own the m16 parts kit and it's not illegal to drill holes in guns.... But it's pretty clear what is going on here and this is where the prosecutor will have an easier time to construct your possession of an illegal MG. Last point to address is this idea of "well they can charge you with it ignorantly and then it's on you to fight in the courts. Who wants to deal with that"...... I mean sure.... But you can literally say that about anything since they can charge you with anything at any time for any reason. You think the officer that wants to make your life hell can't take away your MG and charge you with owning an illegal machine gun regardless of you showing your paperwork? All he has to claim is he didn't know about that paperwork or he couldn't verify it's authenticity. You're back in courts sorting it out and he's got qualified immunity so it's not skin off his back. Moral of story? They can already get you for something if they want to. Try not to give them a reason to and if you do, you have to fight it. We shouldn't have to hide under a rock in fear of our rights being taken away just out of expedience. They may as well be taken away then. I am not a lawyer, and this is just from everything I have gathered from tons of threads and attorney websites. I would love for someone to give any evidence that proves my ides on the issue wrong though!

I know that you can order one directly from CMMG, but I heard it may take months. Let me know if anyone has extras they are willing to sell. Thanks

Awesome, thanks for the info guys!

In reference to this thread, where I can't ask the question since it is closed: A few things were said that I did not understand and wanted to know the answer for curiosity's sake: 1. What makes this an M4 lower? I thought the only difference between m4 lowers and m16 lowers is literally just the marking. The marking on this lower is m16a1 still. Is there some difference between m4 and m16a1 lowers I do not know about? And if there is, did they then use the m4 lower buy stamped it "incorrectly" with m16a1 to keep it consistent with the lower that they were replacing? 2. Even more to the point....How could they have "replaced" an NFA lower and kept it legal? I thought that is why taking care of the MG part of guns is so crucial (like in an M60). You CANNOT replace the part that is the MG. It has to be "fixed" in any way possible, but if replacing , it is now considered a new MG and not allowed to be owned by civilians. What am I missing? Is that a newer rule that was added sometime post 1986 or something?

Thanks! I think I will be changing all the parts on the m16 and holding the originals in my safe. I was going to get a dedicated new upper, but realized that I have full auto compatible uppers already and I realistically wont be shooting it THAT often, so I will probably just use one of the ar15 uppers I currently have. But I definitely want to get a dedicated 22 upper. The Razorback 22lr would be ideal, so I'll have to keep an eye out for one. Let me know if you see one! I have a 8.5" suppressed noveske 300blk upper that I run with subsonic ammo that works flawlessly in semi auto. It is rediculously quite. All you hear is basically the BCG. I am excited to see if how that will work FA

I ended up purchasing an M16 yesterday. The seller was initially fine with doing the lock box method but then decided against it. I was OK with either way, so I took all non-registered parts and now the waiting game starts. Thanks for all you gentlemens input.

No worries. I'm not taking it personally! I really do appreciate the input. I would rather bicker back and forth with you guys and see if I'm missing something,, than do something that atf would frown on.. I dont deny what you are saying about possible civil liability. As you illuded to, you can be sued for anything these days!! Isn't this just the risk that is inherent in owning a MG in the first place though? If I take it from his home locked container, same civil liability for him. In both way I am the one that did something illegal to aquire the MG, but since his name is involved somewhere, the opponents lawyer will try to rope him in into the civil lawsuit. I do understand that what you are likely getting at is its probably easier for me to cut open a container at my home versus his. But on the other hand, we are pretty far into the "what if's". In my defense, none of these constructive posession NFA laws have ever been tested in court and no MG has been used in shootings for good reason....those that are willing to pay 30k to legally do something they can do with a cheap mod on a cheap ar15, aren't typically the same clientele as those that are doing the shootings.....but again, I do understand your point that is is a possibility.

Literally no more or less on/off the hook as if I broke into his safe and took the firearm. Which is the exact point. The act of having me store it for him in a locked container is literally allowed according to their own written rules. Yes, I also understand that you can be arrested for anything, then you have to face your day in court. That is true of basically every circumstance though. For every example you guys can give, there is an equal and opposite side to it that could also happen. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree!

This is a false statement. This happens every single day to tens of thousands of firearm owners. Their spouse is a felon, so how can they own a firearm as you are not allowed to have a firearm on same household as a fellow. Simple. As long as its locked in a container container they don't have access to, you are allowed to own one, leave it at your house while away and the felon is home, leave it In your car you guys share, etc... It seems like you guys are going off gut feeling and not the actual law/rules as they are written.

The seller does not need to trust me in any way. He has his money already. Giving me the rifle to store at my house in a locked container I dont have the key to is legal for hom to do and literally on the ATF's own website and rules written down. It's not some random agent told me it can be done. It's the official policy that is written down.. From there, asking what happens if I crack it open, is like asking what happens If I crack open the safe at his house.. I AM NOW ILLEGALLY IN POCCESSION OF A MG. It was illegal for me to crack it open. Whats he got to do with it? He has done nothing wrong and I have. If something happens to me and the transfer can't be completed, it is once again a me issue. I own the MG. Lets ask it the other way. If he was holding onto it it during the transfer and something happened to me or I got denied. What happens? He has a MG in his possession that's not his but that he is the only one allowed to possess and I (or my estate) own a MG that we aren't yet allowed to possess. Crappy situation for all. The least complicated thing to do is to do a refund, but that is completely at the mercy of the seller. He can refuse. The more likely scenario is I (my estate) has to find a new buyer and start the process from scratch. The fact that he is storing the MG legally according to ATF rules at my house during this time doesn't change anything. The liability is ALL on me, not on him.

For sure. Thanks for the suggestions. I will have to load up on uppers now I just wanted to reiterate this point since people keep mentioning it....There is absolutely zero reason a seller should have for not wanting to agree to this once he has the money as he carries no risk. He has what's owed to him ($$) and legally I own the gun as soon as I hand over the money, I just don't have the right to possess it. Even if I was wrong about my interpretation of the ATF rules. It would be me that is on the hook for anything as I am the one that would be in some form of constructive possession not him. As a side note, ALOT of guys in California own NFA items that they keep at their friedns house elsewhere. It's not allowed in CA but they still want it for collection and/or use when they are visiting. It's allowed for the same reason. Anyways, thanks again for the input guys.

Thanks for chiming in guys. I know many of you guys are in the "I've always done it this way so it is the only way" thought process, and I understand and respect it. KISS (Keep it simple stupid) works. I will be moving forward with a private party purchase of an m16 locally and we will do it the lockbox way. I have talked to more people and that doing it this way is "by the book" as long as I do not have the key. In case you guys didn't get it from my last post, it's not just about trusting another individual. That's only one small part of it. I've talked to the seller more and I believe he is trustworthy. And it's not about getting it sooner or circumventing some wait time (I won't have access to it!). But anything can happen in a year. if it is possible for a seller to not have to be responsible for something that is no longer theirs, that is the best option.

Right. I am glad you are using exact language, because when dealing with the law it is important. An m16, but I am also looking for an m60. I'm not sure what ownership has to do with me taking the registered part in the way I described. I'm not taking the registered part because I own it or have some kind of permission from the BATFE to possess it as my own. I am storing it for the seller. Storing it for someone else is explicitly allowed by the ATF as long as it is in a locked container you don't have a key to and you have a letter stating you are given permission to store it. So I'm not sure if you fully read my post or what? If you own a MG as an individual and you keep it at home unlocked... The second you leave the house while your wife is home, you guys are TECHNICALLY in trouble as she has construed possession of something she isn't allowed to have. Something along those lines. What makes it ok is if you have it in a safe she doesn't have access to. Implying that possession is defined by who has the ability to ultimately hold it in their hands without extraordinary/illegal actions (like cutting into a container). This is not my first transfer, but this would be my first private party NFA transfer.

Cutting the box and getting the firearm is only a disservice to himself and no skin off his back. Again, he now has all the money and I am now in possible of a MG illegally. But hopefully my post right before this one clears up why I am asking these questions.

I'm not sure why everyone is getting worked up. I'm overall ok with doing a private party transaction. It will likely be face to face to, which is another level of protection. I know it will 99%+ chance go smoothly and with no problems. But I've don't all sorts of deals for business as ane even when we implicitly trust each other, it is ALWAYS better for EVERYONE for terms to be clear and to do it in the least risk exposure way possible. That's all I'm trying to do. To learn about the process and make it as smooth as possible. An ounce of prevention is worth a point of cure. It's as much about respect/protection for the seller as it is for me. Even though he has the money, he would now have to keep safe an expensive item for me which isn't great for them either. Hope that clears things up.

I know the simplest thing to do is just buy from a trusted dealer. But thats not the question. I think I've got a new idea. What if I pay the seller for the rifle, send the form 4, take off all the non-registered parts and take them. Then we get a locked container and put the lower into the locked container. He keeps the key and I take the locked container. He writes a letter stating he is allowing the MG to be stored at my house. I think that abides by ALL pertinent laws. According to the atf: This makes sense as you are allowed to store your nfa items in the same residence as others, AS LONG AS, its in a locked container that they can't open. So it's using the same idea. I believe the reason for the letter is for LEO to know it's not stolen since it's not the same address of owner. Coincidently, the seller I am talking with right now actually literally is moving out of state soon, so even if it didn't apply without that portion of the situation, it really does apply. What do you guys think?

I totally understand the benefits of buying from a dealer. I'm not against it at all and I'm not just trying to save a few dollars. It seems to me that the dealer prices and prvate party prices are pretty aligned right now. The bigger issue is actually the dealers just don't really have what I am looking for right now.

Why would the seller care if I break it? I've already payed him the money for it. On the other hand, if I don't go the trust route, he literally coudl do exactly as you say, and use it while it's waiting for transfer and then I have little recourse but courts. To be clear, the point isn't to shortcut the waiting process. Your point about a contract is a good one, but I just don't think a contract where I have to go to court to enforce it, is as good as literally having it in my hands during the waiting period and KNOWING it's safe.

Honestly it doesn't even seem like the dealers are asking for more than private party. It's more so an issue of inventory than anything else.

I think we have completely different understanding of what is being discussed here. Trusts in this context are used for completely different purposes than "estate planning tools". I appreciate you taking the time to chime in and give your opinion. Still open to hear other people's opinions on the trust matter. Thanks

Why would they care about adding me to their trust for an item that they were already paid for? Obviously this is assuming the trust only owns that one item. From my understanding, this would be the safest and easiest way to do a private party transfer. They get their money, I am assured that I get my MG since now I am on the trust and can legally possess it while my form 4 clears. Otherwise It's a terrible situation where 1 of the 2 strangers has to trust the other person will not either disappear with their item or their money. If my post wasn't clear, I am talking about INTRA-state transfers where a dealer is not required to be involved.

This is regarding in-state transfers (Arizona). I know that technically all you have to do to do for a private party transfer is a form 4. The issue is that you are stuck in a limbo state where for a year the seller has both the item and the money or the seller has to trust a stranger will pay him a year later when the item is officially not his anymore. So then I have questions for 2 other possible situations: 1. I know that you can also do a double stamp transaction where the seller form 4's it to the dealer and the dealer form 4's it to you. In this situation, the SOT dealer can hold the item from day 1 correct? If so, this seems safer and worth $200 extra when dealing with a MG. However, I am guessing you can't have both forms concurrently processing, which means it will add ~100 days correct? Lastly, private party sales do not have sales tax here in AZ. But would I now have to pay sales tax on the purchase now that the dealer is the intermediary? Since at a certain point the item is in the dealers name and then it goes to mine, does that make it a retail purchase? I know in regular between state transfers, I would not since the dealer is just considered to be transfering the item. But here it seems messier since at a certain point it's in their name. 2. If the seller of the item has the item in a trust, can he just add me as a co-trustee. That way I am allowed to hold onto the item while my form 4 processes. I know adding someone as a trustee instead of doing a form 4 transfer is a gray area in the NFA community because it can be seen as tax evasion. But I don't think this would apply as tax evasion since we would not be removing the original owner, so it's not "transferring" anything. More importantly, I will also simultaneously be filing the form 4 and paying the tax immediately. This doesn't seem to be tax evasion any more than having a beneficiary or adding a trustee at a later time to your trust so they can use the weapon (Which is legal). Let me know. Thanks

Do you guys know the difference between Colt M16's that say "colt m16a1" on the lower VS just "colt M16" . I'm guessing they are both m16a1's. But is one older than the other and worth more/less?

I am looking to buy a Colt M16 and possibly even an M60 as well. Let me know what you guys have. I am in AZ and prefer Private Party transactions since they are not taxed in AZ. Let me know. Thanks!